Know Your 'Rafale'

[omaebakabaka]

Yes. They do. No question there, the F16s are no slouch. But their BVR systems can be defeated. And the BVR is not in excess of 100KM like the meteor. The issue with aim120c is it can be jammed quite effectively. Which is why, the usaf is coming with 120d’s.

I was still amazed at the post balakot operation. How they launched nearly half of their F16’s at India to try hitting a single target. It’s just mind blowing trying to think about their thought process. In a way it proved to be counter productive I guess, where even a total of 30 or so aircraft package could not hit any real targets and were bugged out but a stray Su30, and a couple of bisons. As per the IAF reports though, I did read that as soon as they saw mirages approaching their direction, they dumped their payload and bolted.

I am a bit skeptical about BVR in excess of 40 to 50km range, just no real world examples in a well contested air space. Looks like R-77 new version is going to have a AESA radar, so that should make it hard to jam too. Hard to imagine US will sell Pakis any more advanced stuff considering close relations with China.

I don't think Paki's were looking at it that way, they just wanted to get their birds in the air to prevent being hit on the ground. If Mode gave permission to strike cross border then they can't anticipate what we would do while they attempt token strike for their sheep. But looks like IAF did well except for the mig-21 and heli loss...

 

[Tumba]

Highly doubt that.

what do u doubt a F-35 in clean configuration always gets First look First shot capability against Rafale. F-35 is also geared towards passive scanning no way 35 comes in Rafale lock first.

 

[omaebakabaka]

but once Aim-260 comes in even latest gen teens will kill Rafale with ease.

I doubt it, PL-15 is for planes like AWACS and Refuellers similar to Novotor k-100 after which Chincoms probably copied. Highly doubtful radar is powerful enough to go after smaller RCS fighters, by aim260 induction time mostly fighter plane radars will be enhanced and they can easily escape at max ranges. Just no evidence to believe....does India have Novotar missile close to 200 km range?

 

[Tumba]

I doubt it, PL-15 is for planes like AWACS and Refuellers similar to Novotor k-100 after which Chincoms probably copied. Highly doubtful radar is powerful enough to go after smaller RCS fighters, by aim260 induction time mostly fighter plane radars will be enhanced and they can easily escape at max ranges. Just no evidence to believe....does India have Novotar missile close to 200 km range?

P-15 is just nothin new a double solid motor the performance will be similar to other BVRs, if fired in long ranges will have no energy left to chase agile fighters.
But NEZ should be similar to Aim120D around 40+ kms.
Aim260 will surely be air breathing missile and NEZ will probably touch 70-80 that will be a real killer.
India doesnt have 200 km missiles, although last year Indian bought a few 140 km hybrid russian missiles.

 

[omaebakabaka]

India doesnt have 200 km missiles, although last year Indian bought a few 140 km hybrid russian missiles.

Didn't India partner with Novotar in developing k-100 (I think) close to 200 km range?

 

[Tumba]

Didn't India partner with Novotar in developing k-100 (I think) close to 200 km range?

like most of Indo Ruskie JV they were not worth following sm Ruskie scheme to get funded and also entice Indian military afsars by Natashas in Moscow hotel rooms.

 

[omaebakabaka]

like most of Indo Ruskie JV they were not worth following sm Ruskie scheme to get funded and also entice Indian military afsars by Natashas in Moscow hotel rooms.

Wiki is not most reliable source but it does list India as operator.

 

[Tumba]

Wiki is not most reliable source but it does list India as operator.

well India might have got few test shots but from all the pictures/observations thats available to us jingos never seen a hulky BVR missile deployed on MKI.

 

[omaebakabaka]

well India might have got few test shots but from all the pictures/observations thats available to us jingos never seen a hulky BVR missile deployed on MKI.

Your words are as weighty as wiki....we have the carrier for those missiles, not too far fetched to think that we may have some of them considering Chincoms have pl-15. Not everything needs to be in public.

 

[Flying Dagger]

R73 is a nice missile. But so specially better than western counterparts. It's the combo of helmets and R73 that was specially deadly.

Mig29 has a very good T/W ratio indeed. But short legs. And it is limited to 7G.... so more a kind of modern Mig21.

Wrong Mig 29 isn't limited to 7g but 9g . Regarding shortlegs issue that's been handled in its upgraded variant Mig 35 and improved Rd33 series engines way back.

R73 is done and dusted it's just we have big stocks of them. R 74 is already in with improved IR seeker. While Russia have developed K-74m2 as it's replacement but it will take time for it to enter mass production.

ASRAAM ( though I doubt how good it is in long range in comparison to MICA IR without TVC ) , IRIS T and MICA are best near BVR IIR available. AIM 9X follow them.

Python for CCM and low price in comparison to other missiles is value for money. Today there are lots of good option in IIR missiles and all are pretty good . Infact the Denel A-Darter IIR will be on SA/Brazil Gripen and probably Porks will get it too.

 

[Flying Dagger]

BVR is overrated especially max distances against similar RCS aircraft.....you need a powerful radar and using that puts you at risk. So realistically 20 to 50 km is more practical with Active guided missiles.

It's not overrated it's just there are very few missiles like Meteor which can sustain energy in long interception.

But with IIR missiles touching near 60 km with TVC, LOAL to be guided by radar of fighter jet and able to pull 100 g like A Darter from Denel ( possibly on JF-17) I'll rather chose them along with meteor.


For drones etc one can opt for cheaper option in IR missiles or rf for now both will be able to take them down.

The new revolution would be Dual Mode Missiles with both IIR and Aesa seeker like Israeli Stunner air defence missiles.

 

[omaebakabaka]

It's not overrated it's just there are very few missiles like Meteor which can sustain energy in long interception.

But with IIR missiles touching near 60 km with TVC and able to pull 100 g like A Darter from Denel ( possibly on JF-17) I'll rather chose them along with meteor.


For drones etc one can opt for cheaper option in IR missiles or rf for now both will be able to take them down.

Just that no actual battles fought but too many claims. These BVRs in practice come with lot of narrow conditions in which they work as some one mentioned altitude, height, ecm, eccm and so on.....I will take it with a grain of salt in the absence of data.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Didn't India partner with Novotar in developing k-100 (I think) close to 200 km range?

R 37 m Awacs killer with around 300 km range are probably replaced by K-100/Novator KS 172 a dev over it.

There was one more advanced version based on it under dev and there have been no news for a long time.

The new version was supposed to have TVC and a new seeker and a ramjet version. It might be possible SFDR is brainchild of that project and we may see bigger version of sfdr perhaps for Awacs etc.

 

[BON PLAN]

F35 is sad?

wtf is that, so u think World air forces are stupid enough to buy them like hot cakes, around couple of dozens are being manufacture every single month.
F-35 is a gen ahead of Rafale, thr is no chance a Rafale can come head on and thump a 35 specially a US one.
Meteor do gives India some plus against our adversaries but once Aim-260 comes in even latest gen teens will kill Rafale with ease.

F35, 14 years after pre serial flight is not FOC.
The F35 IOC is a pure political IOC, as everyone a little bit clever know.
The FOC is pushed back again and again....
This bird were marketed to be as affordable as a F16, as supercruising able. These two promises are not kept. Even the sensor fusion is in doubt. The internal laser tracking pod can't follow moving target....

The sole asset of the F35 vs Rafale is it's VLO. Rafale can supercruise, has a sensor fusion operationnal for years, destroy moving target for years.

As said for years, the customer of the F35 are mainly purchasing the US umbrella (S. Korea, Japan, Belgium, NL, UK, Israel, Poland...)

 

[BON PLAN]

what do u doubt a F-35 in clean configuration always gets First look First shot capability against Rafale. F-35 is also geared towards passive scanning no way 35 comes in Rafale lock first.

The answer are : low band radars, multistatic radar, IR seeker missiles.

 

[Tumba]

The answer are : low band radars, multistatic radar, IR seeker missiles.

F-35 is stealth qualifies to 5th Gen has sensor fusion better radar than Rafale.
VLO itself gives it an advantage which Rafale can not accommodate..
Its just not US umbrella its the US tech which is a good decade ahead of France and rest of world for which F-35 is being bought.
Only if F-35 entered the MRCA there was no way any 4th Gen aircraft would be chosen and definitely India doesnt require any umbrella.
Rafale is still miles ahead of any Fighter tech India has though hopefully IAF uses it to the fullest to protect Indian borders.

 

[BON PLAN]

F-35 is stealth qualifies to 5th Gen has sensor fusion better radar than Rafale.
VLO itself gives it an advantage which Rafale can not accommodate..
Its just not US umbrella its the US tech which is a good decade ahead of France and rest of world for which F-35 is being bought.
Only if F-35 entered the MRCA there was no way any 4th Gen aircraft would be chosen and definitely India doesnt require any umbrella.
Rafale is still miles ahead of any Fighter tech India has though hopefully IAF uses it to the fullest to protect Indian borders.

Sensor fusion : LM marketing. No proof
VLO is an advantage for F35 (but for how many time? Even an Israeli AF general said that it is a time limited asset). Spectra has it's own asset : SPECTRA.
F35 was propoted in Indai. IAF don't want it ! (maybe because India don't need the famous US umbrella...)

 

[Tumba]

Sensor fusion : LM marketing. No proof
VLO is an advantage for F35 (but for how many time? Even an Israeli AF general said that it is a time limited asset). Spectra has it's own asset : SPECTRA.
F35 was propoted in Indai. IAF don't want it ! (maybe because India don't need the famous US umbrella...)

pretty sure F-35 was never officially offered ... although it was told if we buy F-16 after a decade we can go for F-35 by US marketing boys in India.
36 F-35 would have been much more a jump to IAF and Indian Military in Indian Subcontinent than Rafale has. F-35 would prove to be bigger headache to Bully China than Rafale is.

 

[BON PLAN]

pretty sure F-35 was never officially offered ... although it was told if we buy F-16 after a decade we can go for F-35 by US marketing boys in India.
36 F-35 would have been much more a jump to IAF and Indian Military in Indian Subcontinent than Rafale has. F-35 would prove to be bigger headache to Bully China than Rafale is.

F35 is not a mature jet.
F35 hidden costs are huge.
F35 disponibility is low.
F35 is dependant of the US good will (as all the US weapons. Ask UAE and Egyp....).
F35 sole asset, it's stealth, will vanish in a more or long futur (for exemple all new chinese frigates are equipped of low band radars...).
the versatility of F35 will be so small. Once the stealth asset vanished, it will remain a slow moving bird, limiteg in speed (not authorised to be faster than mach 1.4, and for just onbe minute), 7G max. A turkey in the sky.

 

[omaebakabaka]

F35 is not a mature jet.
F35 hidden costs are huge.
F35 disponibility is low.
F35 is dependant of the US good will (as all the US weapons. Ask UAE and Egyp....).
F35 sole asset, it's stealth, will vanish in a more or long futur (for exemple all new chinese frigates are equipped of low band radars...).
the versatility of F35 will be so small. Once the stealth asset vanished, it will remain a slow moving bird, limiteg in speed (not authorised to be faster than mach 1.4, and for just onbe minute), 7G max. A turkey in the sky.

Any software heavy machine with that level of integration doing all possible things, it will become obsolete very fast. F-35 is a program that went very wrong. F-22 is a wonderful machine.