Know Your 'Rafale'

[itsme]

Basic version of F3R which is the current manufacturing standard. F4 has not yet been produced as the details have only just been finalized. Our birds are also being customized and certified to carry Israeli pods and munitions ( Litening / SPICE / Griffin etc ) which are already in common use in IAF rather than the French package (although SCALP & Meteor are included)

Thanks_________________________________

 

[vampyrbladez]

These groups have delivered nothing . There was also a joint group for engine tech which also came to nothing.

Emals will itself cost upwards a billion $ inflating the cost of Vishal. The whole gist of so called us cooperation is selling expensive weapons and no tech transfer. We are going alone with Vishal.

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INS Vishal is at least 50000 - 65000 tons. The Vikrant design was based on the INS Vikramaditya to an extent.

US Navy has essentially 'designed' the Indian carrier for American equipment and thus F 18 E/F will b bought.

 

[uoftotaku]

INS Vishal is at least 50000 - 65000 tons. The Vikrant design was based on the INS Vikramaditya to an extent.

US Navy has essentially 'designed' the Indian carrier for American equipment and thus F 18 E/F will b bought.

Huh? Vishal has not yet been defined even on paper requirement let alone design. Where did you get this information?

Its true the US has helped out but they were brought in as consultants for Vikrant but Vishal project is still years if not decades away from seeing light of day.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Huh? Vishal has not yet been defined even on paper requirement let alone design. Where did you get this information?

Its true the US has helped out but they were brought in as consultants for Vikrant but Vishal project is still years if not decades away from seeing light of day.

The design has been completed since 2016. Main constraints are funding allocations and shipyard capacity.

https://defenceupdate.in/ins-vishal-design-phase-close-complete/

INS Vishal was conceived as a 65,000 tonne aircraft carrier, embarking 55 aircraft and costing Rs 60,000 crore. After the MoD objected to the cost, the navy downsized the proposal to a 50,000-tonne carrier costing about Rs 50,000 crore. But the MoD remains unwilling to accord funding or sanction.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...arrier-ins-vishal-on-hold-119050600047_1.html

 

[Deathstar]

I thought Indian Navy had plans to buy HMS Elizabeth aircraft carrier design , what happened to that?

 

[vampyrbladez]

DO NOT DERAIL THE THREAD! LIMIT DISCUSSIONS TO RAFALE ONLY!

 

[uoftotaku]

The design has been completed since 2016. Main constraints are funding allocations and shipyard capacity.

https://defenceupdate.in/ins-vishal-design-phase-close-complete/

INS Vishal was conceived as a 65,000 tonne aircraft carrier, embarking 55 aircraft and costing Rs 60,000 crore. After the MoD objected to the cost, the navy downsized the proposal to a 50,000-tonne carrier costing about Rs 50,000 crore. But the MoD remains unwilling to accord funding or sanction.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...arrier-ins-vishal-on-hold-119050600047_1.html

I am sceptical of this...from what I know there is no design at all because the basic operational requirements have not been frozen. They haven't even decided on the type of propulsion system, there are various camps batting for nuclear, electric drive or COGAG...some old foggies even extol virtues of steam!

Anyway, I do repeat that we are years if not decades away. If its really a 65k carrier then CSL will need to heavily upgrade its facilities as the current building dock is not big enough. That process itself might take years to do. IIRC the only yard in India with a facility large enough would be the former Pipavav

 

[vampyrbladez]

I am sceptical of this...from what I know there is no design at all because the basic operational requirements have not been frozen. They haven't even decided on the type of propulsion system, there are various camps batting for nuclear, electric drive or COGAG...some old foggies even extol virtues of steam!

Anyway, I do repeat that we are years if not decades away. If its really a 65k carrier then CSL will need to heavily upgrade its facilities as the current building dock is not big enough. That process itself might take years to do. IIRC the only yard in India with a facility large enough would be the former Pipavav

Continue the discussion here.

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ins-vishal-iac-ii-aircraft-carrier.40652/page-50

 

[Vijyes]

The design has been completed since 2016. Main constraints are funding allocations and shipyard capacity.

https://defenceupdate.in/ins-vishal-design-phase-close-complete/

INS Vishal was conceived as a 65,000 tonne aircraft carrier, embarking 55 aircraft and costing Rs 60,000 crore. After the MoD objected to the cost, the navy downsized the proposal to a 50,000-tonne carrier costing about Rs 50,000 crore. But the MoD remains unwilling to accord funding or sanction.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...arrier-ins-vishal-on-hold-119050600047_1.html

USA has not helped in anything. India is not buying Rafale or F18 for VISHAL anytime soon.

India will be having NMWF & NAMCA by the time VISHAL is ready. No need for imported planes

 

[Immanuel]

Why not.
But I think IAF and IN want western fighters because they are already too russian equipped.
Naval Mig29K is not reliable enough. Su30 is not so reliable also.
Once they will taste to Rafale, I'm afraid the russian planes will have a difficult way to win !
The low purchase price is one thing, the reliability and cost to sustain is another. Russian fighters are affordable, but cost a lot to sustain and are less reliable. Quantity versus Quality....

Well Mig-29Ks and MKIs now enjoy serviceability between 70% for the Mig & 75% for the MKI. This will be the same for Rafale. IN won't buy the Rafale, the SH Block 3 is more suited for our carriers.

While they may not be as reliable as let's say the Rafale but both Mig-29K and MKI are formidable against most fighters they have to face on both Chini and Puki front.

 

[vampyrbladez]

USA has not helped in anything. India is not buying Rafale or F18 for VISHAL anytime soon.

India will be having NMWF & NAMCA by the time VISHAL is ready. No need for imported planes

Absolutely. We will have 8th generation UFO firing nuclear bombs by 2025 as well!

 

[Immanuel]

There is no magic in western technology. India is happy to have whatever works. Rafale is bought only because France has offered technology transfer. The $4 billion offset involves this. Otherwise, buying western plane instead of Russian ones merely because India already has them doesn't make sense. Russian planes have indigenisation and hence can be overhauled or made in India. MiG29 can be overhauled in India whereas Su30 can be made in India. If western planes offer lesser indigenisation, obviously, it will be rejected.
Who told you that India is buying F18 planes? Why does India need F18 when it has no aircraft carrier from which it can operate?

IN has a tender out for 57 fighters, main competitors being SH Block 3 and Rafale-M. The SHBlock-3 is better suited for INS Vikrant and eventually INS Vishal.

 

[Vijyes]

IN has a tender out for 57 fighters, main competitors being SH Block 3 and Rafale-M. The SHBlock-3 is better suited for INS Vikrant and eventually INS Vishal.

Be logical. We are getting Vishal in 2030. We will not issue a tender 11-12 years earlier.

 

[IndianHawk]

Absolutely. We will have 8th generation UFO firing nuclear bombs by 2025 as well!

Bhai Vishal hasn't been sanctioned yet. Even after sanction it will take a decade to design and build such a mammoth carrier . It will only enter service in mid 2030s.
Meanwhile naval lca mk2 is already on prototype building stage 1st prototype should be ready by next year. So it will receive IOC by 2026-27 at the latest.

AMCA is supposed to be ready by 2032. NAMCA will follow 2-3 years behind or even simultaneously as both versions are being designed together.

So yes very realistically we will be flying both nlca mk2 and NAMCA when Vishal will enter service.


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[Shekhar Singh]

Absolutely. We will have 8th generation UFO firing nuclear bombs by 2025 as well!

Why do think that Vishal will be operational by 2025?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Be logical. We are getting Vishal in 2030. We will not issue a tender 11-12 years earlier.

We need attrition reserve. Entire MiG 29K fleet will be split between the two A/C unless more fighters are requisitioned.

 

[Vijyes]

We need attrition reserve. Entire MiG 29K fleet will be split between the two A/C unless more fighters are requisitioned.

What? Do you know that current MiG29K is for STOBAR carriers? How can you buy F18 as a reserve for attrition of MiG29K when F18 can't fly from STOBAR?

Bhai Vishal hasn't been sanctioned yet. Even after sanction it will take a decade to design and build such a mammoth carrier . It will only enter service in mid 2030s.
Meanwhile naval lca mk2 is already on prototype building stage 1st prototype should be ready by next year. So it will receive IOC by 2026-27 at the latest.

AMCA is supposed to be ready by 2032. NAMCA will follow 2-3 years behind or even simultaneously as both versions are being designed together.

So yes very realistically we will be flying both nlca mk2 and NAMCA when Vishal will enter service.


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Vishal will start construction only after Vikrant is commissioned which is 2021. INS Vishal, assuming will take as much time as INS Vikrant to build,can be ready only by 2029-30.

We are unlikely to have NAMCA by then but NMWF is more likely. NAMCA may take slightly more time to make as modification of a stealth fighter for Naval role is not easy.

 

[IndianHawk]

INS Vishal is at least 50000 - 65000 tons. The Vikrant design was based on the INS Vikramaditya to an extent.

US Navy has essentially 'designed' the Indian carrier for American equipment and thus F 18 E/F will b bought.

USA has "suggested" a 65k ton carrier with emals and nuclear propulsion with ofcourse US fighter jets !

We will only do what our budget will allow. So no nuclear propulsion and no emals. We are more likely to go for a QE class design as without nuclear propulsion even catapult system will be difficult to power.



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[Rassil Krishnan]

USA has "suggested" a 65k ton carrier with emals and nuclear propulsion with ofcourse US fighter jets !

We will only do what our budget will allow. So no nuclear propulsion and no emals. We are more likely to go for a QE class design as without nuclear propulsion even catapult system will be difficult to power.



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I don't think carriers are going to be flagships for too long ,they will downgraded to ship with unique mission profiles but the day of putting all your eggs on carriers is over,if there is a superlative platform it will be the latest nuke subs of ssbn and san variety as anything above the surface will face significant challenges in staying afloat and fighting.

 

[Immanuel]

Be logical. We are getting Vishal in 2030. We will not issue a tender 11-12 years earlier.

45 Mig-29K will be used between INS Vikky and Vikrant. SH Block 3 or Rafale will be used on them as well initially till Vishal comes along. Anyways, it would take another 3-4 years before a deal is done and delivery won't begin till 2027 or so.