Know Your 'Rafale'

Defcon 1

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Wah! What evidence? You jsut waste my time by being childish.

There is no point discussing it with you as according to you your version of Kaveri being useless is a fact and simply can't care about how UAV will be flown by Kaveri if it was a failure? You don't know the reason for failure, don't know what was the thrust of kaveri ut you insist that it was a failure without having proper evidence yourself?
Where did I say Kaveri is a failure? Why are you a running away from the discussion? I am asking you to prove that Kaveri achieved 81 KN of thrust. Instead of proving that, you are talking about other things.

You moronic replies already show that my claim about Kaveri's achieved thrust was right and yours were wrong. You are just too much of a coward to accept it. Anyways, no need to reply to me unless you can prove that Kaveri did achieve 81 KN of thrust.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Where did I say Kaveri is a failure? Why are you a running away from the discussion? I am asking you to prove that Kaveri achieved 81 KN of thrust. Instead of proving that, you are talking about other things.

You moronic replies already show that my claim about Kaveri's achieved thrust was right and yours were wrong. You are just too much of a coward to accept it. Anyways, no need to reply to me unless you can prove that Kaveri did achieve 81 KN of thrust.
The DRDO updation is my best evidence. What evidence you have to say Kaveri specification shown in DRDO website is wrong or speculative?
 

Defcon 1

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The DRDO updation is my best evidence. What evidence you have to say Kaveri specification shown in DRDO website is wrong or speculative?
I have given you multiple sources which prove that the information on DRDO's website is incorrect. I am posting links again here because I genuinely doubt that with your limited brainpower, you will be able to find them:

1. https://www.business-standard.com/a...uristic-unmanned-aircraft-112122602012_1.html
2. https://www.business-standard.com/a...search-for-kaveri-partner-113010400075_1.html
3. https://www.deccanherald.com/content/607212/foreign-expertise-key-fire-up.html
4. https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2019/February/din-23february2019.pdf

The 4th article is directly from DRDO's their own website and is dated 23rd Feb, 2019. Look at the below quote:
On being asked about the Kaveri engine, Dr Reddy said it would be used on UAVs. “It is not being shelved.” Notably, Kaveri’s thrustis about 75 Kn and 90 Kn is desired to power a fighter jet.
This conclusively proves that 81 KN of thrust has never been achieved on Kaveri. If you still cannot understand this, please check into a mental institution.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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I have given you multiple sources which prove that the information on DRDO's website is incorrect. I am posting links again here because I genuinely doubt that with your limited brainpower, you will be able to find them:

1. https://www.business-standard.com/a...uristic-unmanned-aircraft-112122602012_1.html
2. https://www.business-standard.com/a...search-for-kaveri-partner-113010400075_1.html
3. https://www.deccanherald.com/content/607212/foreign-expertise-key-fire-up.html
4. https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2019/February/din-23february2019.pdf

The 4th article is directly from DRDO's their own website and is dated 23rd Feb, 2019. Look at the below quote:


This conclusively proves that 81 KN of thrust has never been achieved on Kaveri. If you still cannot understand this, please check into a mental institution.
The first 2 are older ones as I am giving 2018 news about France certifying Kaveri. But the 3rd one is interesting as it has dry thrust mentioned as 52kN. I will come to it later.

The 4th is the correct evrsion. But he has not mentioned the correct number. He only said "about" 75kN not that it is 75kN. Maybe he has Rafale in mind as Kaveri is intended there and hence said about 75kN as replacement for M88. Nevertheless, the exact number is not given. hence it can't disprove anything.

The 3rd link of Saurav Jha states that the thrust of 52kN dry has been reached. This may be 2017 news but the thrust does not reduce over time though it can increase and hence I take this number as dry thrust. So, it should be common sense that after burner addition will make it 1.5 times or slightly more. The dry thrust is everything. After burner is just addition to engine. if dry thrust works, everything else is done and dusted.

Now, tell where is the evidence? I have told you repeatedly that pre-2014, UPA sabotaged Kaveri and hence it was not moving ahead. Yet you have posted 2 links from older era where kaveri did not work! The one which you posted having wet thrust (4th link) has the word "about" which makes it non-exact and he was only rounding it off to convenient figure to explain. Who is not understanding- Me or You?
 

Defcon 1

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The first 2 are older ones as I am giving 2018 news about France certifying Kaveri. But the 3rd one is interesting as it has dry thrust mentioned as 52kN. I will come to it later.

The 4th is the correct evrsion. But he has not mentioned the correct number. He only said "about" 75kN not that it is 75kN. Maybe he has Rafale in mind as Kaveri is intended there and hence said about 75kN as replacement for M88. Nevertheless, the exact number is not given. hence it can't disprove anything.

The 3rd link of Saurav Jha states that the thrust of 52kN dry has been reached. This may be 2017 news but the thrust does not reduce over time though it can increase and hence I take this number as dry thrust. So, it should be common sense that after burner addition will make it 1.5 times or slightly more. The dry thrust is everything. After burner is just addition to engine. if dry thrust works, everything else is done and dusted.

Now, tell where is the evidence? I have told you repeatedly that pre-2014, UPA sabotaged Kaveri and hence it was not moving ahead. Yet you have posted 2 links from older era where kaveri did not work! The one which you posted having wet thrust (4th link) has the word "about" which makes it non-exact and he was only rounding it off to convenient figure to explain. Who is not understanding- Me or You?
You are the one who is not understanding. That is why I have asked you to check into a mental institution.

Saurav's Jha article clearly says that the target thrust of 81 KN is not met. This is the quote
As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.
Rest of your post is again theoretical BS as usual. You just write such BS to deflect the issue from actual facts. Anyways, no need to reply to me anymore. I won't reply even if you do. I have established that Kaveri didn't achieve 81 KN of thrust. This fact won't change whether you accept it or not. You are not worth any more of my time.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Saurav's Jha article clearly says that the target thrust of 81 KN is not met. This is the quote
This is 2017 article. The thrust was met in 2018 only after rectification of problems in afterburner. As I said, DRDO changed the specs after certification news came out. So, why give old news and fool?
 

gryphus-scarface

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The first 2 are older ones as I am giving 2018 news about France certifying Kaveri. But the 3rd one is interesting as it has dry thrust mentioned as 52kN. I will come to it later.

The 4th is the correct evrsion. But he has not mentioned the correct number. He only said "about" 75kN not that it is 75kN. Maybe he has Rafale in mind as Kaveri is intended there and hence said about 75kN as replacement for M88. Nevertheless, the exact number is not given. hence it can't disprove anything.
When I say about 10m, I don't mean the number can be anywhere between 0m and 100m. I mean 10m. Similarly, when he said 75Kn, he meant around 75KN. And as we both know, 75KN is nowhere near 80KN that you claim Kaveri has.

The 3rd link of Saurav Jha states that the thrust of 52kN dry has been reached. This may be 2017 news but the thrust does not reduce over time though it can increase and hence I take this number as dry thrust. So, it should be common sense that after burner addition will make it 1.5 times or slightly more. The dry thrust is everything. After burner is just addition to engine. if dry thrust works, everything else is done and dusted.
Your own DRDO page says 52KN. Please read it again. And no, after burner is not some trivial and irrelevant part, it is hard too. Sue it is easier than the dry section, but it is by no means actually easy, and presents its own challenges.


Now, tell where is the evidence? I have told you repeatedly that pre-2014, UPA sabotaged Kaveri and hence it was not moving ahead. Yet you have posted 2 links from older era where kaveri did not work! The one which you posted having wet thrust (4th link) has the word "about" which makes it non-exact and he was only rounding it off to convenient figure to explain. Who is not understanding- Me or You?
You seem to have a hard time comprehending. The last link is the word of god. DRDO's own website says Kaveri @ 75KN. Please quit posting fake news. Your link cites a dead facebook page. Unless you can find a proper link, assume Kaveri is very much dead, like everyone here has been saying.

Incase you start saying some more BS, nobody in their right mind would say about "75KN" when the actual value is near 80KN. The tendency is to always round up, we never round large units like that to the lower 5.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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You seem to have a hard time comprehending. The last link is the word of god. DRDO's own website says Kaveri @ 75KN. Please quit posting fake news. Your link cites a dead facebook page. Unless you can find a proper link, assume Kaveri is very much dead, like everyone here has been saying.

Incase you start saying some more BS, nobody in their right mind would say about "75KN" when the actual value is near 80KN. The tendency is to always round up, we never round large units like that to the lower 5.
This is a section of DRDO site where it posts all news related to DRDO, sometimes even less trustworthy ones. In this case, it was a news and it said "about 75kn". If he had what I have in mind - replacement of M88, he might have said this with that intent. Without exact number, you can't simply reject what i am saying.

Simple math is that dry thrust is multiplied by 1.5 or slightly more to get wet thrust. So, 78kN is almost certain. DRDO website updation from 78 to 81kN makes me believe that it is 81kN now.
 

BON PLAN

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https://automobileposts.com/2019/05...est-research-available-at-the-market-reports/

For instance, India is adopting military modernization programs to upgrade and repair its Cold War-era equipment and vehicles. India is also planning to invest $20 billion to buy approximately 130 Dassault Rafale fighter jets and new helicopters to strengthen the country’s air force. This will increase the fitment rate of HUDs in new aircraft, thus driving the growth of the market.
 

BON PLAN

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Is France Buiding Its Very Own F-35?
Some key technologies are coming to a new fighter Paris wants.

In January 2019, French Defense Minister Florence Parly announced France would commit $2.3 billion to develop an F4 generation of the Dassault Rafale twin-engine multirole fighter. This would include production in 2022–2024 of the last twenty-eight of the original order of 180 Rafales, followed by the purchase of an additional thirty Rafales F4.2s between 2027–2030, for a total of 210. Since 2008, France has deployed land- and carrier-based Rafales into combat in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Mali and Syria.

Land-based Rafales are currently priced $76–$82 million per plane, only modestly cheaper than the F-35A which benefits from vastly greater economy of scale, though the Rafale’s operating costs are likely lower.

The Rafale is much more agile than the F-35, with superior climb rate, sustained turn performance, and ability to super-cruise (maintain supersonic flight without using fuel-gulping afterburners) at Mach 1.4 while carrying weapons. The Rafale’s all-moving canards—a second set of small wings near the nose—give the Rafale excellent lift and low-altitude speed and performance, as you can see in this majestic airshow display.

However, compared to larger fourth-generation twin-engine jets like the Su-35 or F-15, the Rafale can’t fly quite as high (service-ceiling of 50,000 instead of 60,000 ft), and has a lower maximum speed (only Mach 1.8 compared to Mach 2-2.5).

The Rafale’s agility won’t help as much if it is engaged at long distances by enemy surface-to-air missiles and stealth jets. To compensate, the Rafale boasts an advanced Spectra electronic warfare system that supposedly can reduce the Rafale’s cross-section several times over—it is rumored by reflecting back signals using ‘active canceling.’ Spectra also incorporates powerful jammers and flare and chaff dispensers, provides 360-degree early-warning, and can even assist Rafale pilots in targeting weapons to retaliate against attackers.

Other key capabilities include sensor fusion of the Rafale’s RBE-2AA Active Electronically Scanned Array multi-mode radar, which can track numerous targets over 124 miles away, with its discrete OSF infrared-search and track system, which has an unusually long range of sixty-two miles. Rafale pilots also benefit from uncluttered instrumentation combining voice command with flat-panel touch screens.

What’s new in the Rafale F4?

The F4 generation introduces additional network-centric warfare capabilities and data-logistics similar to those on the F-35 Lightning, enabling Rafales on patrol to build a more accurate picture of the battlespace by pooling their sensors over a secure network, and even exchange data using new satellite communications antenna. The pilots also benefit from improved helmet-mounted displays.

The Spectra defensive system will receive more powerful jammers and new threat libraries tailored to meet the improving capabilities of potential adversaries.

New weapons set for integration most notably an improved model of the Mica short-to-medium range air-to-air missile, which has a range of forty-nine miles.

The Mica-NG model will incorporate new infrared-matrix sensors for better performance versus stealth fighters, carry additional propellant for longer range, and integrate internal sensors to reduce maintenance costs. Its dual pulse motor will allow it to accelerate just prior to detonation for a greater probability of achieving a kill.

For longer range engagements, newer Rafales F3Rs and F4s can launch British Meteor missiles which can sustain Mach 4 speeds.

Another weapon set for integration is heavier 2,200-pound variants of the AASM HAMMER, a guidance kit similar to the U.S. JDAM.

The Rafale will also be modified to integrate future upgrades of the French SCALP-EG stealthy subsonic cruise missile and the supersonic ASMP-A cruise missile which carries a 300-kiloton-yield nuclear warhead. Reportedly France may develop a hypersonic AS4NG variant increasing range from 300 miles to over 660 miles.



https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/france-buiding-its-very-own-f-35-56837
 
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Armand2REP

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Bigs news, uprated M88 to be ready by 2025

Video - SCAF: engine temperature will exceed 2,000 °


The future combat aircraft ( SCAF ) will be powered by a 50-50 Franco-German alliance. The French Safran is responsible for the hot parts of the engine and the German MTU Aero Engines cold parts. The engine will be a derivative of the M88 Rafale with a much higher thrust. When you know that the Rafale needs only four short seconds to reach its maximum thrust, it will dishevel.

Many challenges are to be met, such as the resistance of the engine components to temperatures exceeding 2,000 ° or 500 ° more than the M88. Safran is therefore working on new technologies and new ultra-resistant materials. And there is no time to lose, the engine must be ready in 2025 for an entry into service of the fighter plane ten years later.

This new-generation fighter aircraft will have to be able to produce strong supersonic thrusts and cruise at lower speeds for longer periods. Its engine, with a steerable nozzle to facilitate the handling of the aircraft, will be more compact to gain weight and must contribute to the stealth of the aircraft. Another avenue is the hybridization of the reactor to better manage the energy on board. A file on which we will have the opportunity to speak again.

https://www.aeronewstv.com/fr/indus...perature-des-moteurs-depassera-les-2-000.html
 

Kchontha

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Scaf is a Franco-German sixth gen concept. The idea of a joint programme called as “système de combat aérien du futur,” or SCAF, would initially be led by Germany and France, and later opened to other European states.

The planes would likely to take to the skies by 2040, replacing the fleets of Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon jets in both air forces.

The project is seen as a key indicator for how – and if – Europeans can manage a truly large-scale project, especially given industry rivalries that lie beneath the often lofty diplomatic language. Spain is also interested in the Frenco-German development programme and later joined it.

British has also unveiled the Tempest as the planned sixth-generation fighter for the Royal Air Force.

The USA is also pursuing development and acquisition of a sixth-generation fighter through the Penetrating Counter Air to replace its existing air superiority aircraft such as the McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle and complement existing platforms in service such as the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.

Similarly, Russia, Japan, China and Japan have similar concept of their own. Japan and European are skipping fifth gen and jump to sixth gens. We should also join the bandwagon before it is too late and too little.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
 

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Scaf is a Franco-German sixth gen concept. The idea of a joint programme called as “système de combat aérien du futur,” or SCAF, would initially be led by Germany and France, and later opened to other European states.

The planes would likely to take to the skies by 2040, replacing the fleets of Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon jets in both air forces.

The project is seen as a key indicator for how – and if – Europeans can manage a truly large-scale project, especially given industry rivalries that lie beneath the often lofty diplomatic language. Spain is also interested in the Frenco-German development programme and later joined it.

British has also unveiled the Tempest as the planned sixth-generation fighter for the Royal Air Force.

The USA is also pursuing development and acquisition of a sixth-generation fighter through the Penetrating Counter Air to replace its existing air superiority aircraft such as the McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle and complement existing platforms in service such as the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.

Similarly, Russia, Japan, China and Japan have similar concept of their own. Japan and European are skipping fifth gen and jump to sixth gens. We should also join the bandwagon before it is too late and too little.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
5th gen, 6th gen .... What does it really mean?

F22 is, as for now, the sole 5th gen plane according to the initial LM definition. F35 falls short because it is not supercruising, so LM adapted its own definition.
What new asset a 6th gen will have above a F22 like multi role plane?

5th gen is only a marketing tool from LM. Nothing more. (see the 4+, 4++, 4.5 gen in some news papers... it's BS)
 

Kchontha

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5th gen, 6th gen .... What does it really mean?

F22 is, as for now, the sole 5th gen plane according to the initial LM definition. F35 falls short because it is not supercruising, so LM adapted its own definition.
What new asset a 6th gen will have above a F22 like multi role plane?

5th gen is only a marketing tool from LM. Nothing more. (see the 4+, 4++, 4.5 gen in some news papers... it's BS)
As a starter to your queries, a 6th-generation jet fighter is a conceptualized class of fighter aircraft design more advanced than the 5th-generation jet fighters that are currently in development. That means that the former flies faster, higher, outmanoeuvre, has better radar, has better sensor fusion abilities, has better weapons, has better abilities to operate in its own and has the abilities to control drones than the latter.

When LM announce their fifth gen concept they predict to the world that they are combining the features of stealth and manoeuvrability from aircrafts such as stealthy F-117 Nighthawk (1981–2008) and highly versatile aircraft f16. F 22 is the child of mating of these two. This bird is a generation apart from others so called 3rd, 4th or 4+++ in terms of technology or rather better than its own parents. That's is why they called it a true fifth gen aircraft. But it has also its own deficiency. Now f35 has come with its own deficiency. Some of f35 new age technology can be mated with f22 but it is not always vice versa. Their deficiencies are well known to tom, harry or dick. Herein lies a new gen aircraft. Everyone knows it is a marketing ploy. But no one can desist the high end technology.

India cannot remain as a marketing destination or a technology dumping site forever. We should start r&d in this direction. What is your marketing ploy Monsieur Bon Plan?

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Advaidhya Tiwari

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s a starter to your queries, a 6th-generation jet fighter is a conceptualized class of fighter aircraft design more advanced than the 5th-generation jet fighters that are currently in development. That means that the former flies faster, higher, outmanoeuvre, has better radar, has better sensor fusion abilities, has better weapons, has better abilities to operate in its own and has the abilities to control drones than the latter.
Better has to be "quantified". Merely better is insufficient What do ou mean by betetr? How can you get better design when already the design is highly computer optimised?

You see, 5th generation differs from 4th generation in terms of stealth and AESA radar, both of which were possible due to advanced computation caused by semiconductor miniaturisation. So, what technology enhancement will be the basis of 6th generation?
 

Steven Rogers

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As a starter to your queries, a 6th-generation jet fighter is a conceptualized class of fighter aircraft design more advanced than the 5th-generation jet fighters that are currently in development. That means that the former flies faster, higher, outmanoeuvre, has better radar, has better sensor fusion abilities, has better weapons, has better abilities to operate in its own and has the abilities to control drones than the latter.

When LM announce their fifth gen concept they predict to the world that they are combining the features of stealth and manoeuvrability from aircrafts such as stealthy F-117 Nighthawk (1981–2008) and highly versatile aircraft f16. F 22 is the child of mating of these two. This bird is a generation apart from others so called 3rd, 4th or 4+++ in terms of technology or rather better than its own parents. That's is why they called it a true fifth gen aircraft. But it has also its own deficiency. Now f35 has come with its own deficiency. Some of f35 new age technology can be mated with f22 but it is not always vice versa. Their deficiencies are well known to tom, harry or dick. Herein lies a new gen aircraft. Everyone knows it is a marketing ploy. But no one can desist the high end technology.

India cannot remain as a marketing destination or a technology dumping site forever. We should start r&d in this direction. What is your marketing ploy Monsieur Bon Plan?

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
define better in context to f22 or f35 or both.
 

asianobserve

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6th gen i think should be optionally manned. Short of that then any new fighter in development should only be called 5th gen.
 

asianobserve

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Which in turn requires miniaturised nuclear reactor running on air cooled mechanism!
I don't think any air force will go to that extent. That's too dangerous since fighters will run into thousands and sooner some of those in service will crash into populated areas. Instead, developers will work to reduce the power demand of DEWs.
 

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