Know Your 'Rafale'

[abingdonboy]

Keep sticking to your thought process and I hope Dassult doesn't budge on price, once the Rafale deal collapses, the chance of SH being acquired in numbers for India is pretty good.

Why does everyone forget that the F-18 deal is not just about getting a plane but would involve India scrapping its non-alligned postion and jumping into bed with the Americans. CISMOA, BECA and LSA would all be attatched to this contract as would restrictive end-user agreements, no sovereign control over the F-18 production line in India OR the actual F-18s in IAF possesion, zero critical ToT on high end equipment (engines and radars) etc etc


Oh and let's not forget, in a couple of years, once India is firmly on the US's team of unequals they will force the turd that is the F-35 down the necks of the IAF and or IN.


Is it worth it? Not for all the gold in Indian wives' mattresses.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

i keep re reading Trappier words which i copied and pasted in my notepad.. its a english translation from original french news ...

"Today there is price negotiation for the first 36 devices but the principal of our work is to prepare a further 90 aircraft order. (...) We try to make a genuine partnership with Indian industrialists to set up a policy of "make in India". beyond the traditional offsets, Dassault Aviation would settle in India with our partners Safran, Thales and part of our subcontractors. We seek Indian partners to manufacture in India.

 

[abingdonboy]

F-35 is bound to be the most used fighter of the next 30 years regardless of what anyone says.

The same F-35 that requires 10 times more downtime than the A-10 after every mission and 5 times as much as every F-16? The F-35 project is going to collapse on itself in the most epic way within 15 years.

 

[abingdonboy]

i keep re reading Trappier words which i copied and pasted in my notepad.. its a english translation from original french news ...

"Today there is price negotiation for the first 36 devices but the principal of our work is to prepare a further 90 aircraft order. (...) We try to make a genuine partnership with Indian industrialists to set up a policy of "make in India". beyond the traditional offsets, Dassault Aviation would settle in India with our partners Safran, Thales and part of our subcontractors. We seek Indian partners to manufacture in India.

Is this from his press conference a few weeks back bro?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Is this from his press conference a few weeks back bro?

yes, its from the press conference..

 

[Rowdy]

US is like Bhasmasur.... we need to maintain a HEALTHY distance from them . They are in essence corrosive. Their allies (EU,JP,SK etc) and clients (pak ) are all suffering from various "fragilities".

 

[abingdonboy]

US is like Bhasmasur.... we need to maintain a HEALTHY distance from them . They are in essence corrosive. Their allies (EU,JP,SK etc) and clients (pak ) are all suffering from various "fargilities".

They are a super predator, they aren't looking for friends, they aren't interested in a partnership of equals, they want to dominate the world and their "allies". They will systamatically destroy the Indian aerospace industry if given a chance, they have done so consistently with every "friend" of theirs (UK, Israel, Canada, Australia etc etc).

Does this government want to go down in history as THAT government that signed away the sovierengty of their nation for 126 jets? Think about that.

 

[Screambowl]

One more drama starts any how well for this news...

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...per-hornet-fighter-jets-for-iaf/1/626657.html
India keen to buy F/A 18 Super Hornet fighter jets for IAF
"There is a view emerging in the Indian security establishment that F/A-18 Super can also negate the F16 jet sale to Pak''

well I mean it is just to cancel Paki weapon procurement? Never, I don't think Parrikar will ever do that.

 

[Rowdy]

One more drama starts any how well for this news...

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...per-hornet-fighter-jets-for-iaf/1/626657.html
India keen to buy F/A 18 Super Hornet fighter jets for IAF
"There is a view emerging in the Indian security establishment that F/A-18 Super can also negate the F16 jet sale to Pak''

well I mean it is just to cancel Paki weapon procurement? Never, I don't think Parrikar will ever do that.

Planted article.

Worst case scenario if Rafael/Rafale deal is unsuccessful, we should pump REAL money in AMCA. Rope in Israel and induct more Tejas and MKI (I understand that these planes do not fulfill the "Medium" category requirements.) That will anyday be better that american "partnership"

 

[Screambowl]

Planted article.

Worst case scenario if Rafael/Rafale deal is unsuccessful, we should pump REAL money in AMCA. Rope in Israel and induct more Tejas and MKI (I understand that these planes do not fulfill the "Medium" category requirements.) That will anyday be better that american "partnership"

Most probably that is what IAF would do.

Even IAF said 36 Rafales are not sufficient hence they would order more LCA.

It looks like, there is some change in policy may be due to change in defence policy as shifting from more Paki towards Chinese centric.

Therefore government is not interested in spending too much on 4.5 Gen aircraft when they are already investing in 5th gen FGFA.

 

[garg_bharat]

They are a super predator, they aren't looking for friends, they aren't interested in a partnership of equals, they want to dominate the world and their "allies". They will systamatically destroy the Indian aerospace industry if given a chance, they have done so consistently with every "friend" of theirs (UK, Israel, Canada, Australia etc etc).

Does this government want to go down in history as THAT government that signed away the sovierengty of their nation for 126 jets? Think about that.

Fundamentally there is no difference buying from France or buying from USA.
Both belong to the same camp.

 

[garg_bharat]

Most probably that is what IAF would do.

Even IAF said 36 Rafales are not sufficient hence they would order more LCA.

It looks like, there is some change in policy may be due to change in defence policy as shifting from more Paki towards Chinese centric.

Therefore government is not interested in spending too much on 4.5 Gen aircraft when they are already investing in 5th gen FGFA.

There is no change in policy. The Muslim aggression from West remains the primary threat.

When dealing with a country in defence purchases, overall picture is very important.

Nobody has the bandwidth to deal with multiple actors at the same time. Please consider that decision makers are few and have limited time.

The good thing about Americans is the deals are very clear upfront. There are no endless loops. It is yes or no.

 

[garg_bharat]

As I said before, two factors which were ignored earlier will play a part now. These are:

1. Affordability which includes initial price, as well as fuel and maintenance costs, the cost of support infrastructure
2. The benefits to domestic aviation ecosystem.

We have understood that we cannot expect any special help from French in times of crisis. So the weight of France has gone down.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Just look at what we were discussing earlier and what we are negotiating now

Earlier we were saying
36 rafales + initial spares + warehouse load of weapons +/initial training + 2 airbases + 10 years maintainance ( some said 40 years maintainance)

Ni we have come down to only

36 rafales + initial weapons (2 a to a missiles)/+ 2 airbases

Now maintainance will be extra and additional weapons will be extra

And France can't even guarantee the uptime and delivery on time

 

[Pulkit]

Just look at what we were discussing earlier and what we are negotiating now

Earlier we were saying
36 rafales + initial spares + warehouse load of weapons +/initial training + 2 airbases + 10 years maintainance ( some said 40 years maintainance)

Ni we have come down to only

36 rafales + initial weapons (2 a to a missiles)/+ 2 airbases

Now maintainance will be extra and additional weapons will be extra

And France can't even guarantee the uptime and delivery on time

Rafale is a White Elephant and I have stating that since the very beginning and now its proving to be one with all this delay and lack of policy....

Hope IAF let go the so called love(still wondering why they are stuck with Rafale) for Rafale and explore other options.

They could easily get other aircraft(Increase in Su and Mig 29) and even after that we might have some funds left to increase order size of Tejas (120 as of now on order ).

 

[Pulkit]

As I said before, two factors which were ignored earlier will play a part now. These are:

1. Affordability which includes initial price, as well as fuel and maintenance costs, the cost of support infrastructure

This is the basic aim of getting the minimum bid scenario . the did consider these factors initially only thing they missed was they had set few parameters to help few stay in the competition and to kick few out....

2. The benefits to domestic aviation ecosystem.

that's where the offset clause comes into picture that was also accounted for when the initially order was of 126 with 18 delivered. Even now with 36 being discussed India is asking for supply of spares and service from Indian firms only.

We have understood that we cannot expect any special help from French in times of crisis. So the weight of France has gone down.

So there factors were always being considered if I understood you incorrectly please lemme know.

 

[garg_bharat]

No.

It is just IAF set some technical parameters in which it failed 4 out of 6.

The commecial was done only between two contenders.

The technical evaluation procedure is open to question. I have said before and I repeat that fighter is bleeding edge of military tech. Things change, and sometimes rapidly. Any evaluation frozen in time is risky.

The government has to think about engines of LCA and amca if these projects are to be successful. Things have to tie in.

 

[Yodha]

Hey everyone I've found this article by @SajeevJino.

It says that India gave nod to buy Boeing F-18 IN under make in India collaboration with TATA defence systems.
And Rafale project is going to get trashed!!!

http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.in/2016/03/bye-bye-rafale-ministry-plans-to-buy-f.html

 

[Superdefender]

@BON PLAN & @Tactical Frog, where are you buddies? I want you to say something. Please show your faces.

 

[Superdefender]

By the way, both F/A-18E Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler are carrier based fighters. So how....