Know Your 'Rafale'

[Superdefender]

By the way, both F/A-18E Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler are carrier based fighters. So how....

 

[smestarz]

The same F-35 that requires 10 times more downtime than the A-10 after every mission and 5 times as much as every F-16? The F-35 project is going to collapse on itself in the most epic way within 15 years.

Many people including you are better on F-35 project to collapse, but I feel that the Americans will be successful to salvage the project and make it nearly as capable as F-16 during its time.
15 years is a lot of time, and specially a lot for Aviation. There are some limits to technology at present, and those might be overcome in the next 5 years.
F-35 will perhaps be the most expensive project ever. I do not think anyone will attempt a project of that scale again. In terms of overall goals that F-35 was to achieve, it wont truly achieve the 5th Gen requirements of plane but will more or less get over the minimum threshold that are the basic requirements of 5th Gen plane.
I do foresee it as a successful project, but more like F-4 Phantom and not like F-16 or F-15

 

[smestarz]

They are a super predator, they aren't looking for friends, they aren't interested in a partnership of equals, they want to dominate the world and their "allies". They will systamatically destroy the Indian aerospace industry if given a chance, they have done so consistently with every "friend" of theirs (UK, Israel, Canada, Australia etc etc).

Does this government want to go down in history as THAT government that signed away the sovierengty of their nation for 126 jets? Think about that.

India has few friends, Russia being one of them, but based on what our experiences are , there are no friends, there are only Alliances based on business, needs and wants, If we stick to those, we shall be able to guide ourselves safely past all the temptations specially for the UNSC seat. The whole world knows that one of the country that deserves the seat is India and if India is denied it then surely that shows the Hippocratic approach of the various players that gang up to deny India, and then honely do we really want to be part of such united nations where there is no real of being a UNITED world, just alliances based on greed and deceit?

 

[smestarz]

One more drama starts any how well for this news...

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...per-hornet-fighter-jets-for-iaf/1/626657.html
India keen to buy F/A 18 Super Hornet fighter jets for IAF
"There is a view emerging in the Indian security establishment that F/A-18 Super can also negate the F16 jet sale to Pak''

well I mean it is just to cancel Paki weapon procurement? Never, I don't think Parrikar will ever do that.

F/A-18 Super hornet was one of the contenders in MMRCa. It is as capable as the Eurocanards but the IAF found that it did not comply with some of its requirements (none of the plane actually fulfilled all the ASQ requirements.
F/A-18 is a capable and TRULY PROVEN PLANE, unlike some of the planes which are happy to be attacking undefended or old air defences and claiming to be capable and proven.

SH, was one of the most mature plane in the MMRCA competition, Having well proven weaponry.

IF IAF is to take SH then we have to "INDIANISE" the plane, to be modified to carry and fire Missiles and weapons used by IAF. which may not happen. SH, is also a capable naval platform, but then how would it stack up against

One advantage is that the Development cost of SH has already been recovered based on the number of units made. thus iit could be possible that we can now get SH with a lot of ToT (except Radar or avionics)

Also in terms of commonality, Tejas will be using similar engine as the one being used by F/A-18 and so there is good chance that the engine for tejas / SH is being offered to India as part of ToT

 

[garg_bharat]

Issue is not TOT. GE can set up a factory in India directly or designate a private company as its manufacturing partner for the engine. The main need is availability of the engine and spares for a long time.

 

[garg_bharat]

India is building local expertise in radar and avionics. The weapons are being developed at a good pace now. The engine remains the biggest worry.

 

[jackprince]

Know your Rafale ! or not

http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/3699-dassault-demands-rs-90000-cr-rafale-india-won-t-give


Dassault demands Rs 90,000 cr for Rafale, India won’t give in
By KANISHKA SINGH | NEW DELHI | 12 March, 2016

India is not willing to pay over Rs 65,000 crore for the 36 jets in fly-away condition.
High-level Indian and French defence negotiators have failed to arrive at a consensus on the pricing of the 36 Rafale jets that India is supposed to purchase from Dassault Aviation, with the French manufacturer refusing to quote anything lower than Rs 90,000 crore for the aircraft. When the Price Negotiation Committee (PNC) met at the North Block in the national capital on Wednesday afternoon, the Indian side was not willing to go beyond Rs 65,000 crore to buy the 36 jets in fly-away condition, said sources in the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The French manufacturer, Dassault Aviation, on the other hand, asked for Rs 90,000 crore. Ministry sources said that Dassault is not willing to bring the price down, but has added some incentives in terms of support and spares in its new proposal.
A top source in the MoD, who is a part of the PNC and is, thus, privy to the development, told this newspaper, “The Defence Minister (Manohar Parrikar) is playing hardball. Obviously, the French have quoted an obscene amount of money for these planes. We are clear that we will not be bullied into buying overpriced jets. We are the ones who are buying. We will decide what to buy and how much we want to pay. They want around 12 billion euros for the jets. We have told them that we will not give you more than 8 billion euros. Negotiations are on, but we have not been able to come to a compromise.”
The source also added, “The minister is not willing to pay over the top. A strong lobby is pushing for the deal to be signed soon. They are trying to create some urgency in government circles and in the public. They are hoping that this will put pressure on the hasty signing of the deal, without much bargaining. The minister has made it clear to the acquisition committee that if the French do not give in to our price demands and stay adamant then we may look into other options.”
A compromise could not be reached on the price during the visit of French President Francoise Hollande in January. “That is why the deal was stalled,” said the MoD source.
Meanwhile, Eric Trappier, chairman of Dassault Aviation said that they were in the “final phase” of the negotiation and were working towards setting up a “real partnership” with Indian industry, instead of the usual offset that requires investments in unrelated sectors.
The Rafale is a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). According to the proposed deal, a total of 36 nuclear-capable Rafale jets will be delivered to India in fly-away condition. These jets will be equipped with high-end weapons systems, array radars, beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapons systems, among other features. The deal also includes a long-term support and maintenance package with Dassault, with provisions of upgrade.
The Indo-French High Committee meeting, which was scheduled for 9 and 10 March was chaired by Defence Secretary G. Mohan Kumar. Defence industry, research, technology transfer and procurement were the key areas of focus of the meeting. The parties discussed the status of several defence deals between the two countries, including the Short Range Surface to Air Missile joint development deal. “During the meeting, the French delegation gave an amended proposal to the previous one. We are assessing it and will get back to them shortly,” said the source.

@SajeevJino

Hope you are getting paid well!

 

[Tactical Frog]

I have a dream plan for India :

- buy 36 Rafale for nuclear strike
- build F-16 for export only
- build F/A 18 for Indian Navy and export
- build 90 Gripen for IAF as MMRCA

- don' t forget to order PAKFA and a dozen of Su 35 to not upset Putin

Keep everyone happy !

Someone in MoD is listening too much to Daft Punk/ Pharell Williams.

 

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN & @Tactical Frog, where are you buddies? I want you to say something. Please show your faces.

I'm here. What is your message?

 

[BON PLAN]

Many people including you are better on F-35 project to collapse, but I feel that the Americans will be successful to salvage the project and make it nearly as capable as F-16 during its time.
15 years is a lot of time, and specially a lot for Aviation. There are some limits to technology at present, and those might be overcome in the next 5 years.
F-35 will perhaps be the most expensive project ever. I do not think anyone will attempt a project of that scale again. In terms of overall goals that F-35 was to achieve, it wont truly achieve the 5th Gen requirements of plane but will more or less get over the minimum threshold that are the basic requirements of 5th Gen plane.
I do foresee it as a successful project, but more like F-4 Phantom and not like F-16 or F-15

I'am afraid they want to make too much compromises (VSTOL, CTOL, stealth, internal bay, eos....), so at the end it will be average in all aspect. At best.
The idea was good. But maybe too hard to reach.
I'm convinced, and forget I'm french and a proud supporter of the Rafale, that the customers of the F35 will be disappointed.

 

[abingdonboy]

Most probably that is what IAF would do.

Even IAF said 36 Rafales are not sufficient hence they would order more LCA.

It looks like, there is some change in policy may be due to change in defence policy as shifting from more Paki towards Chinese centric.

Therefore government is not interested in spending too much on 4.5 Gen aircraft when they are already investing in 5th gen FGFA.

The deal is not for 36 only, that is a myth that the media seems unable to stop repeating. the 90 follow-on orders (to get 126 units) remains but this is seperate and will be made in India. This has been common knowledge for a long time now.

 

[smestarz]

I have a dream plan for India :

- buy 36 Rafale for nuclear strike
- build F-16 for export only
- build F/A 18 for Indian Navy and export
- build 90 Gripen for IAF as MMRCA

- don' t forget to order PAKFA and a dozen of Su 35 to not upset Putin

Keep everyone happy !

Someone in MoD is listening too much to Daft Punk/ Pharell Williams.

Unfortunately for Nuclear strike role we have the Agni missiles and Su-30 MKI can be used if required.
F-16 only for spares, not many countries will be expected to buy F-16, after all the seller is USA and not India
F/A-18 SH is good for navy and even as MMRCA

No need for Gripen, we already have Tejas,

amd PAKFA/FGFA to keep uncle putin happy... that leaves only one which are not happy.. FRENCH.
Whats going to happen to you folks?

 

[smestarz]

The deal is not for 36 only, that is a myth that the media seems unable to stop repeating. the 90 follow-on orders (to get 126 units) remains but this is seperate and will be made in India. This has been common knowledge for a long time now.

The discussion was just for 36, as informed by PM Modi during the visit to France. Even defence minister Parrikar was on record to say (when he as asked question abt 90 more Rafales) Let us first see what happens with this negotiation of 36 first...
The discussions/negotiations already stalled... if 36 cannot be discussed due to price, you think MoD will want to discuss 90 more? Maybe only if they come Free

 

[smestarz]

I'am afraid they want to make too much compromises (VSTOL, CTOL, stealth, internal bay, eos....), so at the end it will be average in all aspect. At best.
The idea was good. But maybe too hard to reach.
I'm convinced, and forget I'm french and a proud supporter of the Rafale, that the customers of the F35 will be disappointed.

Forgeting you are french and sporting a British flag,... F-35 was too complicated a project. The idea was good, it was actually a step ahead for MRCA. USA uses two different MRCA. Air force uses F-16 and Navy uses F/A-18 (F-15 being air dominance plane of USAF) Thus in a way USA is spending on three different planes, spares etc. But then having a plane that is more or less universal having same engine etc was to be the logical step and F-35 was to achieve that. Technically speaking the three versions of F-35 are actually three different planes with different sizes and for some reason the Americans were not looking at them as three different planes. F-35 for USA has similar story as Tejas for India, a very ambitious project. But like Tejas project the Americans will manage to succeed in F-35 project and even manage to get the cost in control.
There are two camps in USA itself, one camp rates it highly and the other ridicules it but then it will be only be clear when it is in combat (not just operational) being in operation does not show all the flaws, only when the plane is in actual combat will more things known abt it

 

[abingdonboy]

Fundamentally there is no difference buying from France or buying from USA.
Both belong to the same camp.

Utterly, utterly untrue. If you honestly beleive that then you know very little about these matters.

The French don't have anything like the strings attatched to their products and the French government has almost no involvement. Where the US is concerned, it is the exact opposite- the US government is fully involved at every stage in the defence sales and uses such sales as a foriegn policy device. The US WOULD make India sign agreements like CISMOA, BECA and LSA on condition of such a sale, they WOULD impose restrictive end-user agreements wherein only Boeing/LM staff can access certain sections of the IAF's planes (that would be digitally sealed and now IAF personell would ever be allowed to look at).

Furthermore, every single US defence sale- no matter how big or small- has to go through the US Congress for approval- every single nut, bolt, windscreen wiper, bomb, fuse, LCD MFD etc etc is subject to this meaning any such sale can be vetoed by their legislature at anytime depending on their internal poltics at the time. Look at the drama the Pakistanis had to go through to get just EIGHT F-16s approved- do you want that for India?

Further Furthermore, the US Congress also has to approve any such ToT deals and they intentionally restrict the ToT on the most critical tech ie engines and radars, India would never get any such know how from the US- that is assured.

And the point about end-user agreements is often massively overlooked but this is very very critical unless you want to become a vassal state and another US poodle. These end-user agreements would include no customisation without US approval, as I have mentioned only specific (non-user (IAF) ) crew from the US OEM able to acsess certain sections of your own planes. Addtionally the US would have to be notified on the movements of your aircraft if they were to leave certain pre-designated bases/locations/areas. The US would also have a say in where their products are based ie they would want it to be in bases exclusively serving US equipment (ie no other OEMs around). Look at Hindon- serving just the American C-130Js and C-17s whilst the IAF's main transport hub had been Agra until then. This is perfectly fine for transports but fighters is a whole different story. The US would be impacting on the combat abilties of the IAF. This is a strategic issue.

And this point is perhaps worth making seperately although it relates to the restrictive US end-user agreements; what about nuclear delivery? The MMRCA is meant to serve as part of the Indian nuclear triad also and some units will defiently be going to the SFC. Does anyone think the US would ever allow India to mate air-launched nuclear weapons onto their fighters? NOT IN A MILLION YEARS. The French on the other hand have actively promoted this feature (nuclear delivery) as one of the Rafale's strengths to the IAF. I mean there could not be a bigger juxtaposition.

In contrast, the French deals are almost solely with private entities (Dassualt, Safran, Thales, etc etc) and thus adhere to the commerical deals both sides come to- with almost no interferance from the French government. Thus, depending on the terms you get from the private entities ToT can be agreed to or offsets or any other mutually agreed "sweetners". The US actively limits these. So India could get ToT for engines and AESA radars if they get the French OEMs to agree to such through commerical talks, there is no legal bar on such things are with the Americans.

The US has sanctioned India before, have you forgotten that? France has NEVER done so and in fact, when in 1999 (when India was still under sanctions) the French came to India's aid and actively aided them in modifying the Mirage 2000s to deliver precision muntions during the Kargil war.


The US does NOT do business as equals, it is not interested in partnerships- it is all about dominating the other side. I've made this point above but I'll make it again; sign up for a US fighter and kiss good bye to the Indian aerospace industry- bye bye LCA, bye bye AMCA and beyond. Look at the Israeli IAI Lave or the Canadian CF-105 Avro and ask yourself why they never entered service or look at what these home grown projects were replaced with (US fighters) the Aussies and Brits have the exact same expereince.


Look outside of the defence realm, look at the civlian nuclear area- the Russians and French have been happy to set up nuclear plants in India but the US has been stalling because of the liabilty issues that they don't want to agree to. And not only have they stalled their projects but they tried to stall others' as well- we all know what happened with foreign (American) funded Christian NGOs in Tamil Nadu and the Kudankulam power plant.

You are then in their "ecosystem", you are then at their mercy and they will use this to India's detriment, like the above "partners" they would then start to force the turd that is the F-35 down the throats of the IAF/IN and another other waste of space equipment they develop in the future and India will have no choice but to accept it.

The situation is almost the reverse with the French. They ARE willing to enter into genuine partnerships as equals as they can appreciate where India is and where it will be in the future and want to leverage this for their own benefit. As such, the Rafale deal will provide a great oppurtunity for Indian aerospace as the Rafale will be constantly developed for the forseeable future and a lot of this can and will be done with India's backing and expertise thrown in.


To say the US and French are comparable is absolutely absurd. The French and Russians are India's most trustworthy friends and I would say France is now more important than Russia given the latter's steep economic decline, absurd foriegn policy and recent history with Indian defence deals. I would have included Israel but they are far too close to the US and entirely at their mercy (they stopped the sale of an Israeli radar for the SAAB NG as part of the MMRCA bid because of US pressure for example). The US does have some world class equipment thant should be bought (M777, S-70B, C-17, C-130J, P-8I) but one shouldn't extend that to the strategic domain- fighters and such.


@Tactical Frog @PARIKRAMA @BON PLAN @Gessler @Kunal Biswas

 

[abingdonboy]

The discussion was just for 36, as informed by PM Modi during the visit to France. Even defence minister Parrikar was on record to say (when he as asked question abt 90 more Rafales) Let us first see what happens with this negotiation of 36 first...
The discussions/negotiations already stalled... if 36 cannot be discussed due to price, you think MoD will want to discuss 90 more? Maybe only if they come Free

The MoD and Dassualt are already talking for the follow-on 90 unit order to be made in India.

Don't beleive what the paid media wants you to think- "stalled" is grossly inaccurate.

 

[BON PLAN]

Unfortunately for Nuclear strike role we have the Agni missiles and Su-30 MKI can be used if required.
F-16 only for spares, not many countries will be expected to buy F-16, after all the seller is USA and not India
F/A-18 SH is good for navy and even as MMRCA

No need for Gripen, we already have Tejas,

amd PAKFA/FGFA to keep uncle putin happy... that leaves only one which are not happy.. FRENCH.
Whats going to happen to you folks?

Don't worry for us. UAE, Malaysia, maybe Saudi arabia + Canada + Belgium + Swiss will fill up the line.

 

[BON PLAN]

Forgeting you are french and sporting a British flag,... F-35 was too complicated a project. The idea was good, it was actually a step ahead for MRCA. USA uses two different MRCA. Air force uses F-16 and Navy uses F/A-18 (F-15 being air dominance plane of USAF) Thus in a way USA is spending on three different planes, spares etc. But then having a plane that is more or less universal having same engine etc was to be the logical step and F-35 was to achieve that. Technically speaking the three versions of F-35 are actually three different planes with different sizes and for some reason the Americans were not looking at them as three different planes. F-35 for USA has similar story as Tejas for India, a very ambitious project. But like Tejas project the Americans will manage to succeed in F-35 project and even manage to get the cost in control.
There are two camps in USA itself, one camp rates it highly and the other ridicules it but then it will be only be clear when it is in combat (not just operational) being in operation does not show all the flaws, only when the plane is in actual combat will more things known abt it

Ahhh.... my flag !

I don't understand why there is a union jack as my location is Paris and country france in my personnal datas....

But it's not a shame to wear the union jack. I don't agree quite on every thing with BMD, but I like the british people and I don't forget what they done for us during WW1 and WW2.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Unfortunately for Nuclear strike role we have the Agni missiles and Su-30 MKI can be used if required.
F-16 only for spares, not many countries will be expected to buy F-16, after all the seller is USA and not India
F/A-18 SH is good for navy and even as MMRCA

No need for Gripen, we already have Tejas,

amd PAKFA/FGFA to keep uncle putin happy... that leaves only one which are not happy.. FRENCH.
Whats going to happen to you folks?

I hope the irony in my post hasn' t escaped you. Now , seriously, Mr Parrikar or whoever is running Indian defence seems to lack the ability of making strategic choices and standing with them .

I did not like the decision of Brazil to select Gripen but at least the Brazilians have a crystal clear plan for their airforce !

 

[SajeevJino]

@SajeevJino

Hope you are getting paid well!

Mostly I get traffic from India, hence Indians are paying .