Know Your 'Rafale'

BON PLAN

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Bon Plan - Why didnt French go for 2 way data link with Meteor ? Surely it isnt technical - it might be more philosphical.
Some said that the radar resolution is so high that a 2nd way is not usefull.
But it remains a very good question.
I will ask some french specialists.... and come back.
 

LDev

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Since we are on the topic of radar, so the French use Link-16 but India doesn’t. I am now wondering if Indian AWACS will be able to have data link between the meteor and AWACS. Technically it’s possible but who knows with the architecture of the Meteor.

Maybe the data is outdated but from what I have read the Rafale’s radar, the RBE-2, only has a search range of 138km. The Meteor has a no escape zone (NEZ) of 80km so it means its actually range is probably beyond 138km. It doesn’t seem like the Rafale has a radar capable of fully exploiting the Meteor unless AWACS is used.


A disclaimers, clearly I understand that a NEZ of 80km is far superior to that of the F-16 even though the F-16s radar has greater detection range. Realistically in combat the AIM-120c5 will probably achieve a kill from no further then 70km, and that’s being generous. Real world conditions will probably allow the F-16 to achieve kills from 40-50kms.
I think that was the case with the F2 standard Rafale which had a PESA radar and at that stage the Meteor was not integrated with it. No longer true with the RBE2 AESA
 

LDev

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I don't think.
Because, as far as I know, no AWACS radar is made to guide a missile : no data link aboard.

It's probably not impossible, but an air force that let an awacs so near an ennemy make a huge mistake !
The USN E-2D via it's LM AN/APY-9 radar with a range of 500 km can direct 2 way data link compatible AAMs. That comes in specially useful if used in conjunction with a stealth aircraft such as the F-35 where the stealth aircraft can come close in to the target to fire it's AAM without turning on it's radar and then the weapon is directed by the E-2D radar from a safe distance of 400 km+.

Under the NIFC-CA ‘From the Air’ (FTA) construct, the APY-9 radar can act as a sensor to cue Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles for Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets fighters via the Link-16 datalink.

Additionally, the APY-9 also acts as a sensor to guide Standard SM-6 missiles launched from Aegis cruisers and destroyers against targets located beyond the ships’ SPY-1 radars’ horizon via the Cooperative Engagement Capability datalink under the NIFC-CA ‘From the Sea’ (FTS) construct. And thus far, all live-fire NIFC-CA missile shots have been successful.


The U.S. Navy’s Secret Counter-Stealth Weapon Could Be Hiding in Plain Sight
 

LDev

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Bon Plan - Why didnt French go for 2 way data link with Meteor ? Surely it isnt technical - it might be more philosphical.
The F4 standard Rafale will have 2 way data link capability. Those standards will be developed by 2024 and all production Rafale's after that will be on the F4 standard. It will also be possible to upgrade F3R standard Rafales to the F4 standard. A important reason for the 2 way data link of the F4 standard for the Rafale is:

The main modernization features include a connectivity of data links with French and allied forces, greater detection and identification of threats, and fitting upgraded missiles.
A modernization to F4 was in response to the French Air Force’s “evolution of probable threat,” said Etienne Daum, manager for aeronautics, defense and security at think-tank CEIS, based here.

The F4 is important as a a step toward to the Future Combat Air System.

The F-4 upgrade is the first technology package which allows the French fighter to fly in a data network until the planned Next-Generation Fighter flies some time after 2035.
So in theory after the F4 standard upgrade a French Air Force Rafale could drop a Meteor which could be guided to target by a Royal Air Force E-7 Wedgetail. So compatibility and joint operations with allied air forces is the driving reason for the 2 way data link upgrade.

A Look at the F4 Rafale Upgrade Program
 
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itsme

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Does anyone know/have any reading material regarding Rafale ops, especially ops in Libya and on ISIS?
 

BON PLAN

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The F4 standard Rafale will have 2 way data link capability. Those standards will be developed by 2024 and all production Rafale's after that will be on the F4 standard. It will also be possible to upgrade F3R standard Rafales to the F4 standard. A important reason for the 2 way data link of the F4 standard for the Rafale is:



So in theory after the F4 standard upgrade a French Air Force Rafale could drop a Meteor which could be guided to target by a Royal Air Force E-7 Wedgetail. So compatibility and joint operations with allied air forces is the driving reason for the 2 way data link upgrade.

A Look at the F4 Rafale Upgrade Program
The 2 way data link is only, as far as I know, to have a return from the missile to have a confirmation it hit the target. Nothing more.
 

BON PLAN

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Some said that the radar resolution is so high that a 2nd way is not usefull.
But it remains a very good question.
I will ask some french specialists.... and come back.
@Anathema

So :

The 2nd way has two assets :
- it is like a little Battle Dammage Assessment (DBA). If the fighter knows that its Meteor has seen the target through its seeker, it's probably a near 100% kill. Interesting to have this information.
- The lasts seconds datas recorded by the Meteor seeker can be used to improve the tactical situation of the fighter.
 

fire starter

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@Anathema

So :

The 2nd way has two assets :
- it is like a little Battle Dammage Assessment (DBA). If the fighter knows that its Meteor has seen the target through its seeker, it's probably a near 100% kill. Interesting to have this information.
- The lasts seconds datas recorded by the Meteor seeker can be used to improve the tactical situation of the fighter.
so meteor will get 2 way data link in next upgrade good to see that IAF will have a formidable fleet of A2A missile. Only if super sukhoi , MWF and AMCA comes on time then no one can defeat this combo.
 

Drsomnath999

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Never Shot Down: How Rafale Jets Have Dominated Skies In Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, Iraq & Syria

Produced by Dassault Aviation, Rafales jets were first delivered to the French Navy in December 2000. The jets were part of ‘Operation Enduring Freedom’ but did not participate in any combat role.


Published

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EurAsian Times Desk
From Afganistan, Libya, Mali, Iraq & Syria, the recently purchased Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) have outclassed its enemies everywhere and has never-ever been shot down. The Rafales have been part of multi-operational missions and have proved its operational capabilities and air superiority, consistently across the globe

 

BON PLAN

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Never Shot Down: How Rafale Jets Have Dominated Skies In Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, Iraq & Syria

Produced by Dassault Aviation, Rafales jets were first delivered to the French Navy in December 2000. The jets were part of ‘Operation Enduring Freedom’ but did not participate in any combat role.


Published

2 hours ago
on

August 4, 2020
By

EurAsian Times Desk
From Afganistan, Libya, Mali, Iraq & Syria, the recently purchased Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) have outclassed its enemies everywhere and has never-ever been shot down. The Rafales have been part of multi-operational missions and have proved its operational capabilities and air superiority, consistently across the globe

To be honnest, these battlefields were low intensity : no or low potent opponent air force, low to medium SAM threat.
A fight against India and Pak or mainly China will be another history...
 

Germinal

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Does anyone know/have any reading material regarding Rafale ops, especially ops in Libya and on ISIS?
RAND report on Airpower in the Libyan Civil War


 

Anathema

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@Anathema

So :

The 2nd way has two assets :
- it is like a little Battle Dammage Assessment (DBA). If the fighter knows that its Meteor has seen the target through its seeker, it's probably a near 100% kill. Interesting to have this information.
- The lasts seconds datas recorded by the Meteor seeker can be used to improve the tactical situation of the fighter.
Interesting, i would like to summarize it slightly differently. Let me know if you agree.

Logically speaking with 2 way data link - controllers (fighter pilot, awacs, etc) would be able to see complete missile flight path and thereby provide better mid course guidance resulting in a better kill probability.
 

Anathema

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To be honnest, these battlefields were low intensity : no or low potent opponent air force, low to medium SAM threat.
A fight against India and Pak or mainly China will be another history...
Extremely low intensity - but it validated serviceability, weapons deployment in real world conditions - i guess it matters. Did Rafale engage any aerial fighter targets ?
 

BON PLAN

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RAND report on Airpower in the Libyan Civil War


Bonjour gentil nouveau membre ! Français il semble.
 

LDev

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The 2 way data link is only, as far as I know, to have a return from the missile to have a confirmation it hit the target. Nothing more.
Here is the quote and the link from the website of Saab which produces the Gripen which also has the Meteor integrated. The Gripen and Eurofighter currently have 2 way data link integration with the Meteor.

A two-way datalink enables the launch aircraft to provide mid-course target updates or retargeting if required, including data from off-board third parties. The datalink is capable of transmitting missile information such as functional and kinematic status, information about multiple targets, and notification of target acquisition by the seeker.
That section in bold above refers to third parties such as AEWC aircraft. For a third platform to guide the Meteor, it will have to be integrated with that radar. And that will only happen with those airborne radars that MBDA approves off from a security stand point. So I do not see AEWC cueing the Meteor to it's target to be possible for now for any non European or non US radar. MBDA already refused to integrate the Meteor with the Israeli ELTA 2052 radar which India is getting for the LCA Tejas. But they said that if it is a purely Indian radar then they will beSAAB website link ready to look at the issue.

Also as you are probably aware, the integration of the Meteor with the F-35 is underway and I could see the 2 way data link being used by the Royal Air Force to enable it's to be soon delivered Boeing E-7 Wedgetail AEWC cue and guide the F-35 launched Meteor to target. In theory this would allow the E-7 to guide any Meteor launched by any fighter carrying the Meteor. For this to happen the Northrop Grumman radar on the E-7 will have to be integrated with the 2 way Meteor data link. But that will happen for sure given the benefits inherent to all air forces which use the Meteor.
 

BON PLAN

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Rafale has never engaged a Fighter .
In facts in not perfectly true....
In Lybia, 2011, a pair of Rafale seen a jet in the sky. It landed before they can identify it. But as it landed on a Kadafi airfield it was designed as foe. One of the Rafale delivered on it a Hammer and destroyed it on the airfield.
 

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