Know Your 'Rafale'

Frontrunner

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The first two Regiments of S-400s are planned to be deployed around Delhi and most likely nuke facilities like Trombay. The remainder which would be inducted not before 2024/25 one of which would probably be deployed in Ladakh, which is pure conjecture at this stage.

As an aside, being a strategic weapon, the S-400 Regiment that China has received from Russia has been deployed around Beijing (and not Tibet as some have stated) under op control of PLA's 5th Air Defence Division. The second Regiment in the pipeline will be deployed around Shanghai to cover its financial hubs along the Eastern coast and the SCS which is far more strategically sound than deploying them in the TAR .
Wrong parallel...

S-400 have limited ballistic missile Defence ability..it can't be compared with true strategic Ballistic missile defence shield like AAD, PAD OR THAAD.. S-400 comes with 4-5 type of missiles with limited bmd capabilities.. it has 250 km 48N6 nd 120 km 9M96E2 missile specially meant for air defence against aircrafts nd cruise missiles
It can be deployed in 5 minutes to support it's true tactical use...

For strategic Ballistic defence missile we will have AAD nd PAD.. for national capital protection against cruise missile we will have NASAMS-2

For use about S-400.. read comments of ex-IAF chief B.S Dhanoa... It will be used by IAF under integrated air command and control system (IACCS) which would be in effect by 2021-22...
 

Frontrunner

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I am not talking about 24 hour a day sorties. I was referring to the IAF inability to muster enough aircraft to confront the PAF soon after it launched 24 aircraft. The worst part is the IAF was probably expecting retaliation. Supposedly some MiG-29s eventually were scrambled but where were the SU-30s that were located on forward air bases? They should have launched immediately.

Even where I live we had F-15s intercept an empty hijacked airliner within minutes as well as many other aircraft including of unknown origin. During Desert Storm over 100,000 sorties were flown, so if the numbers are there 24 hour a day sorties are possible. Same thing in Syria for Russia, it launches aircraft 24 hours a day on bombing missions and regularly intercepts Israeli aircraft.

I feel like we are deviating from the topic. Those things you said about Pakistani disadvantaged and S-400 I agree on. The only thing that I will say is that the IAF had major fatal flaws post Balakat with the state of readiness as well as equipment. Hopefully the Rafale, better AWACS, upgrades to the SU-30 and a restructured command will have better results next time the PAF and IAF meet.

Again neither of PAF nd IAF can do continuous 24*7 CAP missions... As due to lack of long range sams on both sides .. they can't defend VAs & VPs 24*7

Air warfare today is very dynamic... by the time u realise u are in for a response... the air skirmish would be over...

Multiple fighters sorties were launched from adampur, halwara, Pathankot... Et al.. involving mig29 upg nd su30s ...however till the time they reached area of action... fight was already over...

PAF was not there to cross loc they just wanted to prove a point for sack of response.. aimed at domestic consumption... They employed poor bvr tactics launching amraam at dmax abrogating ROEs...

However they have already crossed the thin line which would prove suicidal for them in next engagement ( whenever it happens)

Now with ROEs already been taken out of consideration.. next time they will face a volley of meteors, R-77-1, R-27ER, Astra, barak-8 sam, 9M96E missiles from air nd ground...

I expect them to chicken out nd wage no response ...same as they did during kargil nd 2002 kel bombing by mirages when we had asymmetrical advantage in bvr range..
 

scatterStorm

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It's the PL 15's NEZ is just 80 kM , and that's for sure's .
Or you can compare dimension to dimension wise how much amount of solid fueled this ram-jet powered missile could take. A better dimension to dimension comparison article of PL15 can bust all the myths. It doesn't even used ram air intakes like the meteor has, I wonder how its going to achieve a range of 200KM.

At best its NEZ is likely to what you've have mentioned, but a missile subject matter expert such as @mist_consecutive or others can put more light to it. I want to bust there myth once an for all.
 

Bhumihar

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There’s reason for this. In the Services, people come and go while well-entrenched babus & managers inhabit the corridors of power in the MoD & PSUs for years and think they are the experts and who have nurtured a false sense of power and authority. What’s worse is that these babus and lobbies almost always outpace & outlast the Forces. Politics & pseudo-nationalism have seized the upper hand. Today, to speak a word against such agencies immediately ignites a ‘Forces versus them’ debate that obfuscates real issues with no prospects of long-term improvement. In the resultant smokescreen, real change eludes us.

Even Modi has failed to tame babudom in these six years. It will require an act of God to change things around for the better.
So what if PM decides that we need more officers from military and restructures the MOD to give more leeway to Military?

Will there be consequences?

Will the Babus do democracy khatre me he drama?
 

Frontrunner

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Or you can compare dimension to dimension wise how much amount of solid fueled this ram-jet powered missile could take. A better dimension to dimension comparison article of PL15 can bust all the myths. It doesn't even used ram air intakes like the meteor has, I wonder how its going to achieve a range of 200KM.

At best its NEZ is likely to what you've have mentioned, but a missile subject matter expert such as @mist_consecutive or others can put more light to it. I want to bust there myth once an for all.
PL-15... 200-400km range should be taken with a bucket load of salt..

lmao even with russian had to make a fat @ss R-37M with a mass of 600kg to afford a range of 400km .. nd that too it is only effective against less manoeuvrable targets like awacs nd tankers..
now compare it with 190 kg ramjet meteor..

Issues with very long range rocket motor aams is.... If u want to have vlr capabilities u need to hv large proportion of fuel mixed with proper catalyst in order to achieve such ranges..

Now if u have large proportion of fuel then it will make missile bulky .. inappropriately ineffective against manoeuvring fighter jets..

Chinese claim of pl-15 being ultra long range aam with only sporting a duel pulse motor (same as in derby-ER) should be thus taken with a bucket load of salt.

Watch this video.. which refute chinese pl-15 claim in profound manner..

 

Neptune

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PL-15... 200-400km range should be taken with a bucket load of salt..

lmao even with russian had to make a fat @ss R-37M with a mass of 600kg to afford a range of 400km .. nd that too it is only effective against less manoeuvrable targets like awacs nd tankers..
now compare it with 190 kg ramjet meteor..

Issues with very long range rocket motor aams is.... If u want to have vlr capabilities u need to hv large proportion of fuel mixed with proper catalyst in order to achieve such ranges..

Now if u have large proportion of fuel then it will make missile bulky .. inappropriately ineffective against manoeuvring fighter jets..

Chinese claim of pl-15 being ultra long range aam with only sporting a duel pulse motor (same as in derby-ER) should be thus taken with a bucket load of salt.

Watch this video.. which refute chinese pl-15 claim in profound manner..


Notice how large of a diameter the R-37M is. The PL-15 is a relatively small diameter missile that uses conventional propulsion, so it’s stated range is impossible.

You want to measure the metic of how bad Chines propaganda is? Look at the WS-15 engine. Even the North Koreans do not stoop to such low levels. Look at the size and diameter of the WS-15 and the claimed thrust output. They claim it produces more thrust then the much more advanced and larger F-135 engine :pound:


The PL-15 would be lucky to reach 200km if it was launched from a ballistic missile at an altitude of 100,000 feet. The WS-15 would be lucky to achieve a one time 35,000lbs thrust in a lab and probably only after they would saturate it with fuel.

Chinese always boasts how superior everything is. On paper they always out do everyone but then China continues to buy and copy equipment from Russia while it steals military secrets from everyone. If Chinese systems were as great as China claims Pakistan would not try to replace Chinese avionics systems and opt for military equipment from small time players like Turkey or South Africa or traditional enemies like Russia.
 

BeEverVectorMan

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I want to know why we slept after knowing that porkis have bvr and higher awacs after kargil war and chinese have more CA and awacs

Why heads were not rolled
 

Flying Dagger

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I want to know why we slept after knowing that porkis have bvr and higher awacs after kargil war and chinese have more CA and awacs

Why heads were not rolled

They were rolled .... Atal ask to build over thousand of Bofors as per the original contract since we had already paid them for blueprints etc.


Mirage 2000 MRCA was raised with approx 200+ to be build and bought .

Discussion for aircraft carrier and Awacs started but all went into cold no during UPA I and UPA second was a joke.

Modi regime while interested to bolster the capability got a legacy of turmoil then they had a phase after Shri Manohar Parrikar ji died when we had Incompetent people holding the job. And our bureaucracy didn't helped either.

But still some major decision were taken and initiated.

Right now we are in jugaad mode with Russian deal for 33 jets kind of stuff.
 

rock127

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Meanwhile... frustrated low life Chinese Pakis are busy spreading fake news but inside they know the truth.

ISPR is having nightmares since DaRa has landed in India since either their radar doesn't work or they switch off to save electricity at night. The night of Balakot and OBL is still fresh in their low IQ brain! :rofl:


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Sridhar_TN

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Wrong parallel...

S-400 have limited ballistic missile Defence ability..it can't be compared with true strategic Ballistic missile defence shield like AAD, PAD OR THAAD.. S-400 comes with 4-5 type of missiles with limited bmd capabilities.. it has 250 km 48N6 nd 120 km 9M96E2 missile specially meant for air defence against aircrafts nd cruise missiles
It can be deployed in 5 minutes to support it's true tactical use...

For strategic Ballistic defence missile we will have AAD nd PAD.. for national capital protection against cruise missile we will have NASAMS-2

For use about S-400.. read comments of ex-IAF chief B.S Dhanoa... It will be used by IAF under integrated air command and control system (IACCS) which would be in effect by 2021-22...
Yes. S400 is the best solution for a long range tactical air Defence requirement. It’s is really good for that and should be bought and deployed in decent numbers.

For true strategic air Defence similar to THAAD, India still has a ways to go. If we go by Indian experts opinions Recently released in the Brookings institute of studies, there is still a need for a lot of improvement. India still has to come up with tech that can kill a warhead in its boost phase itself. That would extremely long range missile systems. True the ASAT system demonstrated that capablility. But to detect a launch, track and fire within seconds to catch the target in its boost phase requires a lot of systems to be developed and deployed. With enough time and money spent on it, DRDO and ISRO can come up with a solution.
 

airtel

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With all the rumbling coming from Pakistan claiming that their F-16s and JF-17s are more advanced then Rafales, I still find it ironic that Pakistan still used vintage 1980s HGU-55 helmets for their aircraft. While India now uses modern Thales helmets with HUD and HMS.
IAF is using helmet mounted display developed by elbit systems of Israel even Rafael will use elbit's hmd .
Why ? commonality of platform and yes it made in India under licence by BEL





 

Mikesingh

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Wrong parallel...

S-400 have limited ballistic missile Defence ability..it can't be compared with true strategic Ballistic missile defence shield like AAD, PAD OR THAAD.. S-400 comes with 4-5 type of missiles with limited bmd capabilities.. it has 250 km 48N6 nd 120 km 9M96E2 missile specially meant for air defence against aircrafts nd cruise missiles
It can be deployed in 5 minutes to support it's true tactical use...

For strategic Ballistic defence missile we will have AAD nd PAD.. for national capital protection against cruise missile we will have NASAMS-2

For use about S-400.. read comments of ex-IAF chief B.S Dhanoa... It will be used by IAF under integrated air command and control system (IACCS) which would be in effect by 2021-22...
Wrong parallel? Meaning? I don't think I mentioned THAAD anywhere! All what you've mentioned is common knowledge. But you haven't answered the question about their deployment which is the crux of the argument.

Five regiments of the S-400 Triumf are being procured. I have mentioned that most will be deployed in not only in the National Capital Region but also along the Mumbai-Baroda Industrial Corridor and other VAs. It is possible a regiment or two may also be stationed near the western border in a tactical AD role . However the deployment of these assets are still being worked out. But their deployment for the defence of the NCR is a given as well as other strategic assets.

And NASAMS II we are procuring consisting of 5 AN/MPQ-64Fl Sentinel radar systems, 118 AMRAAM AIM-120C-7/C-8 missiles, 3 AMRAAM Guidance Sections, and 134 Stinger FIM-92L missiles will be part of the overall multi-layered air defence shield including the indigenous BMD, S-400 and the Barak 8 besides other systems already in place around the NCR and the West coast including nuke facilities.

This will naturally be under the IAF. AD officers and men who will operate this are being trained in Moscow as per the contract.


.
 
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Sridhar_TN

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Wrong parallel? Meaning? All what you've mentioned is common knowledge. But you haven't answered the question about their deployment which is the crux of the argument.

Five regiments of the S-400 Triumf are being procured. I have mentioned that most will be deployed in not only in the National Capital Region but also along the Mumbai-Baroda Industrial Corridor and other VAs. It is possible a regiment or two would also be stationed near the western border. However the deployment of these assets are still being worked out.

This will naturally be under the IAF. AD officers and men who will operate this are being trained in Moscow as per the contract.


.
I highly doubt it’s deployment for protecting cities. Most likely they would be used for tactical purposes under IAC environment like the IAF chief said.
It’s use as an effective BMD shield is yet to be demonstrated. To take down ballistic targets, you should have a missile capable of taking down satellites equivalent to ASAT. Meaning it’s capability will be such that it’s able to exit the atmosphere, similar to the trajectory followed by ballistic weapons. The S400 can’t do that. It does not track targets at that range. True, it can in theory take down a missile when it’s at its terminal phase. It’s still hard to fathom that it would be used to protect civilian airspace.
 

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