Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

Amraam D has the same range and way more launches and tests under its belt.
Also its half the price of Louis Vuitton meteor.

Meteor has twice the range and more test launches under its belt. AIM-120D is more expensive and still just a Louis Vuitton knock off.

 

[Bhurki]

Meteor has twice the range and more test launches under its belt. AIM-120D is more expensive and still just a Louis Vuitton knock off.

Meteor range -100 miles, $2.6m(Brazil procurement)
Amraam D- 100 miles, $1.4m(USDoD 2018 procurement)
Amraam has over 4000 launches till date..

 

[Armand2REP]

Meteor range -100 miles, $2.6m(Brazil procurement)
Amraam D- 100 miles, $1.4m(USDoD 2018 procurement)
Amraam has over 4000 launches till date..

Meteor range = 300km cost €900k
AIM-120D range - 150km cost $1.8 million
AIM-120D is a different version = not applicable to other AMRAAM testing.

Meteor = twice the range at half the cost

 

[Bhurki]

Meteor range = 300km cost €900k
AIM-120D range - 150km cost $1.8 million
AIM-120D is a different version = not applicable to other AMRAAM testing.

Meteor = twice the range at half the cost

Ok then 1000 miles, $10..............

 

[Armand2REP]

Ok then 1000 miles, $10..............

Just ask South Korea why they chose Meteor for KF-X when they buy everything American under the sun.

 

[Neptune]

Meteor range = 300km cost €900k
AIM-120D range - 150km cost $1.8 million
AIM-120D is a different version = not applicable to other AMRAAM testing.

Meteor = twice the range at half the cost

The meteor does not have a range of 300km but around 150km and cost, from what I read is about 2.2 million each.

 

[Armand2REP]

The meteor does not have a range of 300km but around 150km and cost, from what I read is about 2.2 million each.

The Indian Air Force’s new Rafale jets that begin arriving in September next year will come armed with the longest range weapon of its kind, the MBDA Meteor, which sports a range in excess of 300 km in some firing configurations.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...tra-air-to-air-missile-nears-finish-line.html

Spain reported on a contract for 100 Meteor missiles, which amounted to 100 million euros.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprise...-meteor-a-mbda-pour-ses-gripen-ng-819389.html

 

[Neptune]

The Indian Air Force’s new Rafale jets that begin arriving in September next year will come armed with the longest range weapon of its kind, the MBDA Meteor, which sports a range in excess of 300 km in some firing configurations.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...tra-air-to-air-missile-nears-finish-line.html

Spain reported on a contract for 100 Meteor missiles, which amounted to 100 million euros.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprise...-meteor-a-mbda-pour-ses-gripen-ng-819389.html

Spain purchased those missiles in 2009, factor in the exchange rate and inflation of today. Brazil recently signed a contract for 100 Meteor missiles for €200 so the Meteor is massively more expensive then any AMRAAM.


https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...eor_Missile_Deal_for_Brazilian_Gripen_NG_Jets

As for 300km range, the manufacturer has never said anything of the sort just some Indian journalists you quoted. The only thing we know is that the no escape zone is about 60km, which doesn’t say anything about maximum range, especially when the Meteor engine is so unpredictable as apposed to a traditional continuous burn engine, on the contrary, it adjusts throttle depending on conditions so maximum range is impossible to know from knowing just the ‘no escape zone’. It would surprise me if the meter reached 250km.

 

[Armand2REP]

Spain purchased those missiles in 2009, factor in the exchange rate and inflation of today. Brazil recently signed a contract for 100 Meteor missiles for €200 so the Meteor is massively more expensive then any AMRAAM.

The ECB inflation rate averages 1.5%, Brasil isn't just buying missiles, they are buying everything MBDA has to do to the plane and support it. The missile itself is only €1 million.

As for 300km range, the manufacturer has never said anything of the sort just some Indian journalists you quoted. The only thing we know is that the no escape zone is about 60km, which doesn’t say anything about maximum range, especially when the Meteor engine is so unpredictable as apposed to a traditional continuous burn engine, on the contrary, it adjusts throttle depending on conditions so maximum range is impossible to know from knowing just the ‘no escape zone’. It would surprise me if the meter reached 250km.

The manufacturer has only advertised the NEZ range, not the max range. Launched from high altitude and using its optimal cruise speed, it can reach 300km. If you want to argue with Shiv Aroor then be my guest.

 

[Neptune]

The ECB inflation rate averages 1.5%, Brasil isn't just buying missiles, they are buying everything MBDA has to do to the plane and support it. The missile itself is only €1 million.

You’re right, Brazil isn’t just buying the missile they are buying French extraordinary scam package. SAAB is actually a partner in the Meteor, they make the proximity fuse subsystems. So what exactly does MBDA have to do to the Gripens that SAAB hasn’t already done? Is MBDA throwing in some French bread and wine?

The manufacturer has only advertised the NEZ range, not the max range. Launched from high altitude and using its optimal cruise speed, it can reach 300km. If you want to argue with Shiv Aroor then be my guest.

Yes I want to argue with Shiv Aroor, he pulled those figures out of nowhere. Even if it was true, a missile “cruising” would be poor design decision. Aircraft can cover 10s of kilometers in seconds and make sudden changes in direction. If a slow missile was launched at 300km the opposing aircraft’s RWR would alert the targeted aircraft and it would just take evasive action, same thing the Indian SU-30 did against Pakistan. It would make sense for targeting AWACS but no so much fighters.

During the Gulf war Mig-25s outran dozens of missiles fired on them by NATO aircraft, in two different occasions a combined total of 16 missile were launched at Iraqi Mig-25s. In turn one Iraqi Mig shot down an F-18 and another hit an F-15 that managed to make it limp back to base. R-40s were a fast missile launched from fast platforms hence they successfully hit an F-18 and F-15 and some more aircraft if we believe Iraqi and Russian sources. A little off topic but there is no confirmation of a 300km range.

 

[BON PLAN]

Meteor range -100 miles, $2.6m(Brazil procurement)
Amraam D- 100 miles, $1.4m(USDoD 2018 procurement)
Amraam has over 4000 launches till date..

Meteor : No Escape Zone greater than 60 km.
AMRAAM : Nez in the 25 km.

Spain purchased those missiles in 2009, factor in the exchange rate and inflation of today. Brazil recently signed a contract for 100 Meteor missiles for €200 so the Meteor is massively more expensive then any AMRAAM.


https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...eor_Missile_Deal_for_Brazilian_Gripen_NG_Jets

As for 300km range, the manufacturer has never said anything of the sort just some Indian journalists you quoted. The only thing we know is that the no escape zone is about 60km, which doesn’t say anything about maximum range, especially when the Meteor engine is so unpredictable as apposed to a traditional continuous burn engine, on the contrary, it adjusts throttle depending on conditions so maximum range is impossible to know from knowing just the ‘no escape zone’. It would surprise me if the meter reached 250km.

The max range means nothing, if the missile can't reach a moving target at the end. In ballistic mode flight, ie like a rocket, a missile is useless.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

After Rafale, Modi gets another French offer to counter terror




We want to invent the future together with India,” remarked the man at the thick of world’s futuristic innovation – Marco Erman in an interview with IANS. The Chief Technical Officer of Thales, the French company that is involved in the Delhi Metro, supply of passport readers for the government and the Mirage 2000 upgrade programme, and even the Rafale team, now has another proposition for the Narendra Modi government – “Let’s fight terrorism together.” “The station (metro) that I took had a baggage checking and then a security checking for security threats at that time, and then there was the billing point as well. Then I said to myself, we as a company may invent something for India that will combine the payment while entering the metro and the verification of ‘I am not a terrorist’ at one single point. You know, ease the fluidity, but still preserve the security,” recalled Erman about when he got the idea to help India to counter terrorist threats. He said how he is “in love with some of the architecture” of New Delhi which he has visited. He said he is aware of concerns stem from India’s experience in the past, without directly referring to 26/11 Mumbai attacks, when the country’s financial capital was struck by terrorists from Pakistan, killing at least 174 people, including foreign nationals. “May be in the future, if you find the right way for a dialogue, you will probably find solutions other than this that exist,” Erman said, virtually inviting the Modi government to avail the company’s futuristic expertise in dealing with security threats of tomorrow. Earlier this week, India observed the 11th anniversary of the dastardly Mumbai attack. Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that he is pained to recount how extremist forces decided to hurt India’s outlook of Vasudhaiv Kutumbakam (world is one family) on the very day it celebrated its democracy. The Chief of all things technical of the innovation giant’s blatant articulation, in the aftermath of this, assumes significance. Thales provides ticketing systems deployed in Delhi and Gurugram metros, as well as Integrated Communications & Supervision systems in Bengaluru, Hyderabad, Jaipur, Mumbai and Delhi metros now looks beyond. The man at the helm of its technical side, speaking on the sidelines of Innov Days, an event in Paris, where it brags its technological breakthroughs, gave another India specific vision of the group while answering a question by IANS. Marko said, his company is willing to secure India’s communication system, particularly the government and its various ministries by its cutting edge quantum encryption through satellite, much like what its is doing right now across the expanse of European Union. To make it easier to understand, Thales is not only developing quantum computers which will be tens and hundreds times faster in processing data, that any government may need to; but simultaneously invented cryptography for a post-quantum era that will keep all those vital data handled by governments or ministries secure, away from being breached. “If this system is deployed in India, none of the European countries will be able to penetrate India, which is okay for us,” he announced. He added, Thales will be “more than happy” to give Indian government the same protection that it is giving to many European governments, leaving breach of crucial data or information virtually impossible. But he added, its for the Modi government who may have to take a call on this. However, Marko has conceded, as an European company, he finds thecae of decision making in India “slow”, while commenting on India’s claim for ease of doing business being made smoother. But that doesn’t take away the enthusiasm of Thales, which has been providing India with cutting edge technology since 1953. The group is also a firm believer in Modi’s “Make in India” programme. It is already working with state owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and has a joint venture with Bharat Electronics Limited (BHEL), apart from Reliance Aerostructure Limited, for the much talked about Rafale deal. But now, the company wants to help India build an impenetrable communication system in place to bump off enemy effort of eves hacking (read Pakistan) and introduce a futuristic scan machines that will thwart terrorism activity without creating serpentine queues at any of India’s prominent metros. In other words, Thales’ chief technical officer, who is based out France, the country whose relations with India has been on an all time high ever since the Rafale deal was inked, telling asking the world’s largest democracy – Let’s fight the evil of terrorism together

 

[BON PLAN]

Why MMRCA2 will not be a russian product :

https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-su-30-fighter-jets-criticized-by-belarus-they-want-f-16.html

"Another disadvantage of the Su30 fighter manufactured in Russia is its AL-31FP engines, which six units “eat” during the Su-30SM life cycle (two of them are already installed and paid for at the time of purchase). This circumstance in the publication is explained by the fact that “Soviet (Russian) aircraft engines are traditionally inferior to Western ones not only in fuel efficiency but also in between-repairs and operating life cycles.”

The Polish Air Force simultaneously operates the Soviet twin-engine fighter MiG-29 and the American single-engine F-16. It is assumed that the American fighter will fly off all 35 years with the same engine that was originally installed on it. Unfortunately, this does not work out with the MiG-29: eight engines will have to be replaced in the same period, ” explained analyst"

ie an occidental engine has a 3x to 4x more duration than a russian counterpart.

Russian fighters are low cost to purchase, but high cost on total life cost.

 

[abhay rajput]

Why MMRCA2 will not be a russian product :

https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-su-30-fighter-jets-criticized-by-belarus-they-want-f-16.html

"Another disadvantage of the Su30 fighter manufactured in Russia is its AL-31FP engines, which six units “eat” during the Su-30SM life cycle (two of them are already installed and paid for at the time of purchase). This circumstance in the publication is explained by the fact that “Soviet (Russian) aircraft engines are traditionally inferior to Western ones not only in fuel efficiency but also in between-repairs and operating life cycles.”

The Polish Air Force simultaneously operates the Soviet twin-engine fighter MiG-29 and the American single-engine F-16. It is assumed that the American fighter will fly off all 35 years with the same engine that was originally installed on it. Unfortunately, this does not work out with the MiG-29: eight engines will have to be replaced in the same period, ” explained analyst"

ie an occidental engine has a 3x to 4x more duration than a russian counterpart.

Russian fighters are low cost to purchase, but high cost on total life cost.

It's really funny when people compare single jet engine fighter aircraft with twin engine.
As far as mrca2.0 goes , it will most probably go to aircraft which will transfer more tot..

 

[Neptune]

Why MMRCA2 will not be a russian product :

https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-su-30-fighter-jets-criticized-by-belarus-they-want-f-16.html

"Another disadvantage of the Su30 fighter manufactured in Russia is its AL-31FP engines, which six units “eat” during the Su-30SM life cycle (two of them are already installed and paid for at the time of purchase). This circumstance in the publication is explained by the fact that “Soviet (Russian) aircraft engines are traditionally inferior to Western ones not only in fuel efficiency but also in between-repairs and operating life cycles.”

The Polish Air Force simultaneously operates the Soviet twin-engine fighter MiG-29 and the American single-engine F-16. It is assumed that the American fighter will fly off all 35 years with the same engine that was originally installed on it. Unfortunately, this does not work out with the MiG-29: eight engines will have to be replaced in the same period, ” explained analyst"

ie an occidental engine has a 3x to 4x more duration than a russian counterpart.

Russian fighters are low cost to purchase, but high cost on total life cost.

Let’s post a blog that compares 45 year old Soviet engines that Russia does not service or sell to Poland anymore but somehow Poland keeps finding engines for their Mig-29 fleet for the past 30 years. So either the Mig-29 engines last much longer or Poland somehow picks up RD-33s at the local grocery store.


As a side note about 7,000 F100-PW-229 have been built or ordered. If those engines last 35 years why are so many more engines manufactured as compared to aircraft? It’s far more then what is simply needed for spares.


Western fanboys crack me up, if we switch sides it would be the equivalent of comparing F-1 Mirages and F-4 fantoms to SU-30s or SU-57 and then boasting.

It reminds me of how the US and British Air Force furiously denied losing aircraft such as F-18s and Tornados to Migs during the gulf war. Instead blaming it on SAMs when a declassify CIA report and fellow pilots admitted they were shot down by Mig-25 and Mig-29s.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's really funny when people compare single jet engine fighter aircraft with twin engine.
As far as mrca2.0 goes , it will most probably go to aircraft which will transfer more tot..

The point was not to compare single or twin engine fighters, but western 35 years life engine and russian 4 or 5 years life ones.

 

[BON PLAN]

7,000 F100-PW-229 have been built or ordered.

this engine is not only used on F16, but also on F15....

A western engine is NEVER fully replace because scrap. Some parts are removed, or some modules (in the M88 case for exemple).
The spare engine purchased (ie a classical 18 engines for 15 or 16 F16 or M2000) are used so as to keep the plane flying during the time the engine is checked and the broken component replaced.

 

[asianobserve]

Let’s post a blog that compares 45 year old Soviet engines that Russia does not service or sell to Poland anymore but somehow Poland keeps finding engines for their Mig-29 fleet for the past 30 years. So either the Mig-29 engines last much longer or Poland somehow picks up RD-33s at the local grocery store.


As a side note about 7,000 F100-PW-229 have been built or ordered. If those engines last 35 years why are so many more engines manufactured as compared to aircraft? It’s far more then what is simply needed for spares.


Western fanboys crack me up, if we switch sides it would be the equivalent of comparing F-1 Mirages and F-4 fantoms to SU-30s or SU-57 and then boasting.

It reminds me of how the US and British Air Force furiously denied losing aircraft such as F-18s and Tornados to Migs during the gulf war. Instead blaming it on SAMs when a declassify CIA report and fellow pilots admitted they were shot down by Mig-25 and Mig-29s.

This article may answer some of your questions:

Poland removes MiG-29 grounding order

Announcing the resumption of MiG-29 duties, Warsaw’s armed forces general command says the decision was taken “after analysing the implemented recommendations” following a spate of accidents involving the Russian-built type.

In the most recent incident, on 4 March 2019, a pilot ejected safely after his aircraft suffered a technical malfunction, most likely linked to its engines. This followed a fatal crash in July 2018, the causes of which are still being investigated, and another airframe loss in December 2017, details about which have also yet to be published.

Polish air force inspector Major General Jacek Pszczola says five of the service’s MiG-29s are currently airworthy, with another 12 awaiting check flights. The nation has sufficient spare parts to support operations for a further three to four years.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/poland-removes-mig-29-grounding-order-462591/

So,

1. Poland has stocked up on spares for its Russian-built Mig-29s. Most probably these spares were purchased from Russia or other sources of Mig29 parts; and,

2. Russian engines are really not reliable, get over it.

 

[Neptune]

This article may answer some of your questions:

Poland removes MiG-29 grounding order

Announcing the resumption of MiG-29 duties, Warsaw’s armed forces general command says the decision was taken “after analysing the implemented recommendations” following a spate of accidents involving the Russian-built type.

In the most recent incident, on 4 March 2019, a pilot ejected safely after his aircraft suffered a technical malfunction, most likely linked to its engines. This followed a fatal crash in July 2018, the causes of which are still being investigated, and another airframe loss in December 2017, details about which have also yet to be published.

Polish air force inspector Major General Jacek Pszczola says five of the service’s MiG-29s are currently airworthy, with another 12 awaiting check flights. The nation has sufficient spare parts to support operations for a further three to four years.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/poland-removes-mig-29-grounding-order-462591/

So,

1. Poland has stocked up on spares for its Russian-built Mig-29s. Most probably these spares were purchased from Russia or other sources of Mig29 parts; and,

2. Russian engines are really not reliable, get over it.

You should get over it. The premise was a blog stating India won’t use Russian products then the blog goes on to mention the Polish Air Force which use RD-33s circa 1980s. FYI hundreds of F-16 have crashed so mentioning a few MiGs Polish Migs doesn’t prove anything especially when their spares are probably from the 1980s or worse from some bootlegged shop in Eastern Europe.

Western fanboys can’t help but citing and comparing old Soviet technology trying to desperately make correlations to new Russian technology. There are over 100 JF-17 in service for over a decade, the aircraft has a solid safety record with just two crashes. The difference is Pakistan gets full aftermarket support while Poland doesn’t.

 

[BON PLAN]

You should get over it. The premise was a blog stating India won’t use Russian products then the blog goes on to mention the Polish Air Force which use RD-33s circa 1980s. FYI hundreds of F-16 have crashed so mentioning a few MiGs Polish Migs doesn’t prove anything especially when their spares are probably from the 1980s or worse from some bootlegged shop in Eastern Europe.

Western fanboys can’t help but citing and comparing old Soviet technology trying to desperately make correlations to new Russian technology. There are over 100 JF-17 in service for over a decade, the aircraft has a solid safety record with just two crashes. The difference is Pakistan gets full aftermarket support while Poland doesn’t.

Are all the JF17 crashs known ? I don't know, but I've a doubt due to the near conflict situation between India and Pak, so hiding your weakness may be the rule.