Know Your 'Rafale'

[Bhurki]

You're right about NK-32 being the highest thrust combat jet engine. But it got into that thrust level the crude way - by building a humongous engine! That's what I jave been saying all along, Soviets and Russia cannot match the manufacturing tech of Western companies especially on jet engine cores. So what they do is build them so big so that they get the thrust level they want. But the engine is gas guzzling and have short life.

Just look at how the IAF lost interest in PAKFA, a big factor is Russia's inability to deliver the promised engine.

Russians have always known they're inefficient on sub systems level, but the way they make up for it only makes one laud their ingenuity.
Can't make accurate missles? Ok, make the warhead 10 times larger..
Can't achieve engine thrust with available tech? Ok, iterate current tech and play with constraints to reach target.
Can't have shiny clean airfields like NATO? Ok, attach truck based suspension on a fighter jet.

Also, the gap between tech started only since 1990 after fall of USSR, and hence they are able to bank on tech produced back then and iterate on those platforms.
Newer tech like FS stealth will be hard to achieve due to low R&D figures, but they worked quite hard to achieve same results as expected from F35 by integrating more kinematic capability.

 

[asianobserve]

I’m aware of that. My link stated that the NK-32 is the largest and most powerful engine ever fitted on a combat aircraft.

Size matters with engines when it comes to making more thrust, take a look at the gargantuan size of the GE engine. The west has always had to make moronically large engines, turbofan, rocket, whatever..... to come anywhere close to or exceed the thrust of most Russian engines.



View attachment 40473


And now the much older and smaller NK-32:

Russians have always known they're inefficient on sub systems level, but the way they make up for it only makes one laud their ingenuity.
Can't make accurate missles? Ok, make the warhead 10 times larger..
Can't achieve engine thrust with available tech? Ok, iterate current tech and play with constraints to reach target.
Can't have shiny clean airfields like NATO? Ok, attach truck based suspension on a fighter jet.

Also, the gap between tech started only since 1990 after fall of USSR, and hence they are able to bank on tech produced back then and iterate on those platforms.
Newer tech like FS stealth will be hard to achieve due to low R&D figures, but they worked quite hard to achieve same results as expected from F35 by integrating more kinematic capability.

The Soviets only gained parity with the West in combat jet engine tech when they reversed engineered Rolls Royce's Nene engine that the Brits naively gave away. After that the Soviets never gained the technological edge in jet engine preferring instead to focus on raw thrust.

 

[BON PLAN]

Soviets have got both..
RD180( revised 170) to this day powers the atlas V( 80 launches, 79 success, 1 partial).
Tu 160 powered by NK32 is still the fastest strategic bomber on earth.

I was speaking about fighter engines.
You can have the most powerfull fighter engine but few reliable.... this was the point.

 

[BON PLAN]

Just look at how the IAF lost interest in PAKFA, a big factor is Russia's inability to deliver the promised engine.

It was a factor, indeed .

 

[Armand2REP]

Size matters with engines when it comes to making more thrust, take a look at the gargantuan size of the GE engine. The west has always had to make moronically large engines, turbofan, rocket, whatever..... to come anywhere close to or exceed the thrust of most Russian engines.

Thrust to weight matters, time between overhauls matter, turbine inlet temperature matters... if you win in all three of those then you have the best engine.

 

[Neptune]

I was speaking about fighter engines.
You can have the most powerfull fighter engine but few reliable.... this was the point.

The Soviets only gained parity with the West in combat jet engine tech when they reversed engineered Rolls Royce's Nene engine that the Brits naively gave away. After that the Soviets never gained the technological edge in jet engine preferring instead to focus on raw thrust.

Thrust to weight matters, time between overhauls matter, turbine inlet temperature matters... if you win in all three of those then you have the best engine.

The F-135 engine could not operate for more then 25 hours, this according to the 2015 US government accountability office before it needed maintenance. Parts of the engine have sheered off and caught fire multiple times. This is why some western aircraft are so labor intensive, not because maintenance crews soap and wash them to look pretty. There is a myth western aircraft are super reliable and that’s simply not true, it’s only reliable if they get meticulous maintenance.


And I remember a time when people were knocking the old AL-31s and RD-33s for needing maintenance overhauls every 500 hours according to the manufacturer. Some of the newer upgraded upgraded variants of those engines need it every 1,000 hours.

Western philosophy: Russian equipment is junk because it needs frequent maintenance....critic points out high maintenance of western equipment.....suddenly it becomes: Our equipment is sophisticated and state of the art because it requires more maintenance then Russian equipment.

It’s a lose lose situation.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...s-india-tells-france/articleshow/72375495.cms

Rafales must fly in with Meteor air-to-air missiles, India tells france

 

[no smoking]

I was speaking about fighter engines.

In its peak time, Soviet's achievement on fighter engines was only behind US. The major issue to them was other industrial departments can't support their best design.

In 90s, Chinese experts once ranked world aviation engines level:

US - 100
USSR - 90
UK - 85
France - 65

You can have the most powerfull fighter engine but few reliable.... this was the point.

On one hand, their engines may be as reliable as western products, but still reliable enough to power over 10,000 jets flying over years.
On the other hand, the reliability of western products requires the high standard maintenance schedule and skillful tech team. Even Soviet herself can't meet that.

 

[Bhurki]

On one hand, their engines may be as reliable as western products, but still reliable enough to power over 10,000 jets flying over years.
On the other hand, the reliability of western products requires the high standard maintenance schedule and skillful tech team. Even Soviet herself can't meet that.

Requirements carvebthe specifications of any equipment.
Sure, western stuff is a lot more efficient , shiny as compared to ussr but its not half as good for standing the brutal conditions the russians subject their machines to.
Few russian airfields were reconstructed since the ussr times and most have grass jutting out of the crude misaligned concrete blocks the pavement is made up of. They land their strategic bombers on ice fields..
Subject the shiny f16 and b2 to these and see what happens..

 

[lcafanboy]

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/ra...s-india-tells-france/articleshow/72375495.cms
Rafales must fly in with Meteor air-to-air missiles, India t ..

Read more at:
http://m.timesofindia.com/articlesh...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafales must fly in with Meteor air-to-air missiles, India tells France

• Meteor AAMs, with a strike range of 120 to 150-km, can outgun any missile that can be unleashed by Pakistani or Chinese jets
• The request comes in the backdrop of the aerial skirmish between Indian and Pakistani fighters in Nowshera sector on Feb 27
• India's Sukhoi-30MKIs and other jets, scrambled to intercept incoming Pak fighters, had found it difficult to engage F-16s at long ranges on that day

India has asked France to arm the first four Rafale fighters with the top-notch Meteor air-to-air missiles, which, with a strike range of 120 to 150-km, can outgun any missile that can be unleashed by Pakistani or Chinese jets. The first Rafale fighters will touch down at the Ambala airbase in May next year.

The request for at least 8-10 Meteor beyond visual range (BVR) missiles to be delivered with the four Rafale jets was conveyed to France during defence minister Rajnath Singh’s visit to the country to formally accept the first fighter at Merignac in the Bordeaux region on October 8.

“Earlier, as per the Rs 59,000 crore deal inked for 36 Rafale jets and their weapon packages in September 2016, the progressive deliveries of the Meteor and the over 300-km range Scalp air-to-ground cruise missiles were to begin several months later,” said a source.


“But given the current operational situation with Pakistan, India has asked for faster delivery of at least 8-10 Meteor missiles. France is examining the request,” he added.

The request comes in the backdrop of the aerial skirmish between Indian and Pakistani fighters in the Nowshera sector along the Line of Control on February 27, a day after the bombing of the JeM facility in Pakistan. The Sukhoi-30MKIs and other jets, scrambled to intercept the incoming Pakistani fighters, had found it difficult to engage the F-16s at long ranges on that day, which also saw Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman’s MiG-21 being shot down, as was earlier reported by TOI.

The Pakistani F-16s were armed with the AIM-120C advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles (AMRAAMs), which have a range of about 100-km, and had let loose several of them at the Sukhoi-30MKIs before the latter could even get into their firing range.

IAF says the operational dynamics for achieving “air dominance” will change with the induction of the Rafales armed with the greater-range Meteor missiles powered by Ramjet engines to fly at Mach 4 speed. The Meteor missiles are arguably the best in the world for air combat duels, with “a greater no-escape zone” for hostile fighters than any comparable BVR weapon. Pakistan and China do not currently have any missile of this class in their combat inventories.

During the defence ministerial dialogue in October, France also offered Indian experts an opportunity to check the performance of the omni-role Rafale jets, which can also deliver nuclear weapons if required, “in an environment of high temperatures” at its military base in UAE.

An IAF induction team of pilots, engineers and technicians is currently undergoing training in France, which has so far handed over three Rafales to India. Once this training is over, the first four Rafales will head for India in May 2020. All the 36 jets will arrive in India by April 2022, with 18 each to be deployed at the Ambala and Hasimara airbases for the western and eastern fronts with Pakistan and China.

The Rafales, with a combat range of 780-km to 1,650-km depending on mission, come armed with a deadly weapons package, advanced avionics, radars and electronic warfare systems to prevent jamming by adversaries and ensure superior survivability in hostile contested airspace. Each Rafale, for instance, can also carry two fire-and-forget Scalp cruise missiles to hit high-value fortified targets well over 300-km away.

But the 13 India-Specific Enhancements (ISEs) or upgrades on the 36 Rafales will become fully operational only by October 2022 after undergoing “software certification” after all the jets have arrived in India. The upgrades range from radar enhancements, Israeli helmet-mounted displays and low-band jammers to towed decoy systems, 10-hour flight data recording and engine capability for "cold start" from high-altitude regions like Ladakh. They also include Israeli litening pods for target acquisition and guidance kits for Spice precision-guided munitions, which were used to bomb the JeM facility at Balakot on February 26.
https://www.defencenews.in/article/...ir-to-air-missiles,-India-tells-France-788295

 

[BON PLAN]

In 90s, Chinese experts once ranked world aviation engines level:

US - 100
USSR - 90
UK - 85
France - 65

LOL.

1) because 1990 chinese experts are... not experts !
2) Not for USA or USSR, but for UK and France respectively.

1990 product of UK : Tornado, and only with partners.
1990 product of Fr : Mirage 2000, all alone.

No match between Tornado and M2000.

 

[BON PLAN]

The F-135 engine could not operate for more then 25 hours, this according to the 2015 US government accountability office before it needed maintenance. Parts of the engine have sheered off and caught fire multiple times. This is why some western aircraft are so labor intensive, not because maintenance crews soap and wash them to look pretty. There is a myth western aircraft are super reliable and that’s simply not true, it’s only reliable if they get meticulous maintenance.


And I remember a time when people were knocking the old AL-31s and RD-33s for needing maintenance overhauls every 500 hours according to the manufacturer. Some of the newer upgraded upgraded variants of those engines need it every 1,000 hours.

Western philosophy: Russian equipment is junk because it needs frequent maintenance....critic points out high maintenance of western equipment.....suddenly it becomes: Our equipment is sophisticated and state of the art because it requires more maintenance then Russian equipment.

It’s a lose lose situation.

F135 remains a new engine.
M88, as EJ200 at their beginning needed to be overhaul often. It's no more the case once the youth problems are debugged.

 

[Holy Triad]

It's no more the case once the youth problems are debugged

Could you elaborate on those problems and the implemented fixes?
With links if possible

Thanks in advance...

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafales must fly in with Meteor air-to-air missiles, India tells France

• 
  
  
  • Meteor AAMs, with a strike range of 120 to 150-km, can outgun any missile that can be unleashed by Pakistani or Chinese jets
  • The request comes in the backdrop of the aerial skirmish between Indian and Pakistani fighters in Nowshera sector on Feb 27
  • India's Sukhoi-30MKIs and other jets, scrambled to intercept incoming Pak fighters, had found it difficult to engage F-16s at long ranges on that day

India has asked France to arm the first four Rafale fighters with the top-notch Meteor air-to-air missiles, which, with a strike range of 120 to 150-km, can outgun any missile that can be unleashed by Pakistani or Chinese jets. The first Rafale fighters will touch down at the Ambala airbase in May next year.

The request for at least 8-10 Meteor beyond visual range (BVR) missiles to be delivered with the four Rafale jets was conveyed to France during defence minister Rajnath Singh’s visit to the country to formally accept the first fighter at Merignac in the Bordeaux region on October 8.

“Earlier, as per the Rs 59,000 crore deal inked for 36 Rafale jets and their weapon packages in September 2016, the progressive deliveries of the Meteor and the over 300-km range Scalp air-to-ground cruise missiles were to begin several months later,” said a source.


“But given the current operational situation with Pakistan, India has asked for faster delivery of at least 8-10 Meteor missiles. France is examining the request,” he added.

The request comes in the backdrop of the aerial skirmish between Indian and Pakistani fighters in the Nowshera sector along the Line of Control on February 27, a day after the bombing of the JeM facility in Pakistan. The Sukhoi-30MKIs and other jets, scrambled to intercept the incoming Pakistani fighters, had found it difficult to engage the F-16s at long ranges on that day, which also saw Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman’s MiG-21 being shot down, as was earlier reported by TOI.

The Pakistani F-16s were armed with the AIM-120C advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles (AMRAAMs), which have a range of about 100-km, and had let loose several of them at the Sukhoi-30MKIs before the latter could even get into their firing range.

IAF says the operational dynamics for achieving “air dominance” will change with the induction of the Rafales armed with the greater-range Meteor missiles powered by Ramjet engines to fly at Mach 4 speed. The Meteor missiles are arguably the best in the world for air combat duels, with “a greater no-escape zone” for hostile fighters than any comparable BVR weapon. Pakistan and China do not currently have any missile of this class in their combat inventories.

During the defence ministerial dialogue in October, France also offered Indian experts an opportunity to check the performance of the omni-role Rafale jets, which can also deliver nuclear weapons if required, “in an environment of high temperatures” at its military base in UAE.

An IAF induction team of pilots, engineers and technicians is currently undergoing training in France, which has so far handed over three Rafales to India. Once this training is over, the first four Rafales will head for India in May 2020. All the 36 jets will arrive in India by April 2022, with 18 each to be deployed at the Ambala and Hasimara airbases for the western and eastern fronts with Pakistan and China.

The Rafales, with a combat range of 780-km to 1,650-km depending on mission, come armed with a deadly weapons package, advanced avionics, radars and electronic warfare systems to prevent jamming by adversaries and ensure superior survivability in hostile contested airspace. Each Rafale, for instance, can also carry two fire-and-forget Scalp cruise missiles to hit high-value fortified targets well over 300-km away.

But the 13 India-Specific Enhancements (ISEs) or upgrades on the 36 Rafales will become fully operational only by October 2022 after undergoing “software certification” after all the jets have arrived in India. The upgrades range from radar enhancements, Israeli helmet-mounted displays and low-band jammers to towed decoy systems, 10-hour flight data recording and engine capability for "cold start" from high-altitude regions like Ladakh. They also include Israeli litening pods for target acquisition and guidance kits for Spice precision-guided munitions, which were used to bomb the JeM facility at Balakot on February 26.
https://www.defencenews.in/article/...ir-to-air-missiles,-India-tells-France-788295

I think France will "lend" some Meteor to India, on its own stock, just as an advance.
The first 44 first Meteor were delivered last year to french forces (official information from the french Senat), and some more this year.
So I think it will not be a problem.

 

[BON PLAN]

Could you elaborate on those problems and the implemented fixes?
With links if possible

Thanks in advance...

I can just give you an exemple, for M88 :
The overhaul period was 150 flying hours at the beginning (and even less, with the first Rafale Marine in 1999...), and now it's in the 800 hours with 1000 hours as a target (reached ? I don't know).
TAC (tactical Air Cycle) is now 4000, same as F16 and SH18 engines, against 2500 ten years ago.

Difficult to find sources, specially within short time. But some, in french...

https://omnirole-rafale.com/le-reacteur-m-88/
http://tmor.rafale.free.fr/neuf.html

 

[asianobserve]

The F-135 engine could not operate for more then 25 hours, this according to the 2015 US government accountability office before it needed maintenance. Parts of the engine have sheered off and caught fire multiple times. This is why some western aircraft are so labor intensive, not because maintenance crews soap and wash them to look pretty. There is a myth western aircraft are super reliable and that’s simply not true, it’s only reliable if they get meticulous maintenance.


And I remember a time when people were knocking the old AL-31s and RD-33s for needing maintenance overhauls every 500 hours according to the manufacturer. Some of the newer upgraded upgraded variants of those engines need it every 1,000 hours.

Western philosophy: Russian equipment is junk because it needs frequent maintenance....critic points out high maintenance of western equipment.....suddenly it becomes: Our equipment is sophisticated and state of the art because it requires more maintenance then Russian equipment.

It’s a lose lose situation.

The earlier reliability issues of the F136 emgine were mainly due to issues with Pratt & Witney's suppliers.

Anyway, like what Bon Plan said F-135 engine is relatively new. It cannot be denied that several years ago Pratt & Witney were still debugging the engine. But now itbis already mature. In fact, P&W has already validated its self-funded Growth Option 1.0 that refuces fuel burn by 5-6% while incresing thrust by 6-10%.


At the moment F135 engine has 95% reliability rate. This is due in large part to the engines inherent reliability and its embedded sensors for preventive diagnostics that reports the problems before they impact on the engine's pergormance. And it can be repaired on field by only 6 tools!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...s-poised-to-dominate-for-decades-to-come/amp/

The F135 engine is 3x less likely to experience Unscheduled Engine Removal (UER) than 4th gen engines like the F110.

https://www.f35.com/global/participation/canada-F135-engine

 

[asianobserve]

Btw, P&W has continuously tested for 235 days the F135's hot section in 2015 and it achieved 5,210 total accumulated cycles or an equivalent of 7 years service or 1,200 sorties' equivalent.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?uid=42273&f=56&t=28344&start=0

Meanwhile the cold section of the F135 was tested in 2017 and it achieved 9,400 total accumulated cycles, equivalent to 14 years of service or 2000 F-35 missions. The testing was completed while running the engine at extreme conditions to simulate operational engines.

https://www.americanmachinist.com/s...s-new-f135-fan-compressor-pass-critical-tests

So if the hot section of the F135 reaches its max service life then it will be simply swapped with a new one. The ssme is true with its cold section. But the whole engine itself will remain the same until the F-35 it powers is retired.

The same goes with other Western engine.

 

[Holy Triad]

Rafale touched 11g force on the Heads-up-display at Dubai Air Show

VC: Babouc nativel

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafale touched 11g force on the Heads-up-display at Dubai Air Show

VC: Babouc nativel

________________________________

Lets see an F-35 do that!