Know Your 'Rafale'

[vampyrbladez]

F 16V, BLK 70/72 is no crap buddy but India need to look for 5th generation options to counter Chinese threat.AMCA is more than a decade away....F 35 is a perfect candidate for MMRCA 2.0 & IN requirements, there are two many charlatan in this forum who give over hyped rafale a free pass. F 35 will smash it to oblivion in real combat.

F 16 is a maxed out airframe. It has no kinetic performance like Rafale, Eurofighter or Su 35BM or the full suite of EW systems.

Too much propaganda by LM here is simply laughable.

 

[south block]

F-35 india cannot afford it. Suppose india gets 200 F-35 to fill shoes of mk-2 amca mmrca etc. The development of indigenous equipment is now gone for next 50 years. What drdo and other organization will do? They will swing baba ji ka ghanta?. First most important thing for india today is not buying but generating capabilities.
IAF broke hearts of all indigenous haters by saying they back Only DRDO project.
Maintaining those white elephants will eat all of our budget.
IAF is not impressed by F-16 and it's total cost is 24 billion $ more expensive than rafale.
Rafale is best choice IAF liked it from the start now Supreme Court decision is also their now it will be ordered.

Chinese crap J-20 will take at least 10 years to become capable.

If India can afford over priced Rafale ,India can afford 110 f 35 to & no indigenous project will not be hampered. DRDO need to cancel Tejas mk 2 & channel money for AMCA & buy F 35 as a stop gap.
wasting money on 4th generation jets is suicidal when world has already move towards 5th generation jets & by the time DRDO come up with AMCA everyone else would have moved to 6th generation.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

If India can afford over priced Rafale ,India can afford 110 f 35 to & no indigenous project will not be hampered. DRDO need to cancel Tejas mk 2 & channel money for AMCA & buy F 35 as a stop gap.
wasting money on 4th generation jets is suicidal when world has already move towards 5th generation jets & by the time DRDO come up with AMCA everyone else would have moved to 6th generation.

Chinese and Russia is struggling to build 5th generation you are already created 6th generation in your fantasy world.
Cool.
Who said rafale is overpriced some LM paid champion? Even Tejas cost 60 million.
112 f-21 are more expensive than your rafale they will cost 21 billion.
And sir who said india is easily affording rafale no we have money issues that's why indian government is unable to buy them and maintenance of rafale is cheaper than su-30 & Su-35 and it's sortie rate is twice.
F-35 lamo IAF will be begging for it's maintenance and it's service will be done in south Korea or in Israel good luck by taking them their for service in wartime.
Drdo needs to cancel this that everything let's keep importing best. Tejas mk-2 will give much needed infrastructure for development of jets and supplier. If we cancel it.
From were drdo will develop spare parts and system for production of AMCA. From my ass?
Btw recent reports from France said they will use 4th generation rafale till 2070 su-35 will be used till 2060.

 

[learn from failures]

F35 fanboys need to be realistic... USA even wasn't ready to share critical F35 tech with it's best buddy UK..... removed Turkey a NATO member out of program for S400 purchase think India can toy around with enemies with F35 at its will..... are these fanboys suggesting us to completely walk away from Russia and be the stooge of USA just for F35? And even after compromising on all this ask for USA approval to fly somewhere on Bengal ocean?

We are seeing how much USA is toying around Iran with F35 and all it's nukes.... so let's stop fooling ourselves....

 

[Bhurki]

F-35 india cannot afford it

F35 costs around $160M per unit in a combined deals.(spares, maintenance equip incl)
South korea order 40 jets for $6.4B.
Another 20 on table for $3.3B
Dutch are buying 46 for $7.3B
Japan cost projections are $16B for 105(pure import)
By comparison, India paid $220M per rafale ( excluding weapons cost of $0.9B)
(Including spares, maintenace kit, PBL)
Even after ISE exclusion($1.6B), to project numbers for a second batch of 36 rafales, per unit cost will be $180M.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

F35 costs around $160M per unit in a combined deals.(spares, maintenance equip incl)
South korea order 40 jets for $6.4B.
Another 20 on table for $3.3B
Dutch are buying 46 for $7.3B
Japan cost projections are $16B for 105(pure import)
By comparison, India paid $220M per rafale ( excluding weapons cost of $0.9B)
(Including spares, maintenace kit, PBL)
Even after ISE exclusion($1.6B), to project numbers for a second batch of 36 rafales, per unit cost will be $180M.

Jet free m udh ta h?
maintenance nam ki bhi cheeze hoti h.
Costs. A U.S. Navy study found that the F-35 will cost 30 to 40% more to maintain than current jet fighters, not accounting for inflation over the F-35's operational lifetime. A Pentagon study concluded a $1 trillion maintenance cost for the entire fleet over its lifespan, not accounting for inflation.
In 2018, flying an F-35A cost about $44,000 per hour on average — about double the cost of operating the Navy's Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

F35 costs around $160M per unit in a combined deals.(spares, maintenance equip incl)
South korea order 40 jets for $6.4B.
Another 20 on table for $3.3B
Dutch are buying 46 for $7.3B
Japan cost projections are $16B for 105(pure import)
By comparison, India paid $220M per rafale ( excluding weapons cost of $0.9B)
(Including spares, maintenace kit, PBL)
Even after ISE exclusion($1.6B), to project numbers for a second batch of 36 rafales, per unit cost will be $180M.

And offset for rafale is coming for free? What happened to the money which is coming to india in rafale deal? The agreement included a 50% "offset clause", which required the companies involved in the agreement—primarily Dassault, Thales, Safran and MBDA—to invest 50% of the contract value (approximately €3.9 billion or ₹30,000 crore) back into India, with 30% of the total (approximately €1.2 billion or ₹9,000 crore) reserved

Everyone hyped rafale cost 220 million and what about 50% of offset which is coming to india? :bounce:

 

[Bhurki]

Jet free m udh ta h?
maintenance nam ki bhi cheeze hoti h.
Costs. A U.S. Navy study found that the F-35 will cost 30 to 40% more to maintain than current jet fighters, not accounting for inflation over the F-35's operational lifetime. A Pentagon study concluded a $1 trillion maintenance cost for the entire fleet over its lifespan, not accounting for inflation.
In 2018, flying an F-35A cost about $44,000 per hour on average — about double the cost of operating the Navy's Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

Obvio it'll cost more to maintain. It has much more capabilities than conv fighters.

And offset for rafale is coming for free? What happened to the money which is coming to india in rafale deal? The agreement included a 50% "offset clause", which required the companies involved in the agreement—primarily Dassault, Thales, Safran and MBDA—to invest 50% of the contract value (approximately €3.9 billion or ₹30,000 crore) back into India, with 30% of the total (approximately €1.2 billion or ₹9,000 crore) reserved

Everyone hyped rafale cost 220 million and what about 50% of offset which is coming to india? :bounce:

'Offsets' are not 'cashbacks'.
Offsets add to both sides of the ledger.
50% offsets means FDI investment with principal owner being the same parent company.( with some partner)
Once India pays $9B to French govt. and money distributes to the companies, it is their money. The only thing that offsets do is to ensure investment into India. That asset still belongs to the principal shareholder or french company. Sure it'll increase the defense production within the geographic bounds of India, but the revenue still bills under the OEMs name.
So it has much more of a secondary spill over effect rather than primary account value.
That said, it isn't like F35 partners got nothing to do. Other than cutting edge core tech like stealth, the partners contribute a lot.
Japan's IHI makes the engine parts
Britain is a major integrator of avionics.
Turkey was to make 10% of all parts for F35 eventually.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Obvio it'll cost more to maintain. It has much more capabilities than conv fighters.

'Offsets' are not 'cashbacks'.
Offsets add to both sides of the ledger.
50% offsets means FDI investment with principal owner being the same parent company.( with some partner)
Once India pays $9B to French govt. and money distributes to the companies, it is their money. The only thing that offsets do is to ensure investment into India. That asset still belongs to the principal shareholder or french company. Sure it'll increase the defense production within the geographic bounds of India, but the revenue still bills under the OEMs name.
So it has much more of a secondary spill over effect rather than primary account value.
That said, it isn't like F35 partners got nothing to do. Other than cutting edge core tech like stealth, the partners contribute a lot.
Japan's IHI makes the engine parts
Britain is a major integrator of avionics.
Turkey was to make 10% of all parts for F35 eventually.

But india is not part of any F-35 manufacturing hub? We choose the best deal which is available to us. Comparing India with japan or UK in F-35 production is idiotic we are not japan or UK we are not even close ally of US. Lack of development under DITTI proves this. Co development of engines was also rejected.
The investment will support india in defence production and will provide jobs to many people. Investment sweetens the deal their investment will come into our companies such as reliance which will bring development in india.
And 1.2 billion euro reserved investment was initially focused to come into Kaveri project that was total kind of cashback.

 

[Bhurki]

But india is not part of any F-35 manufacturing hub? We choose the best deal which is available to us. Comparing India with japan or UK in F-35 production is idiotic we are not japan or UK we are not even close ally of US. Lack of development under DITTI proves this. Co development of engines was also rejected.
The investment will support india in defence production and will provide jobs to many people.
And 1.2 billion euro reserved investment was initially focused to come into Kaveri project that was total kind of cashback.

Even South Korea wasn't part of F35 programme. They are FMS partner. But they want to make their own stealth jet KFX. By buying F35, they got Lockheed's assitance in developing key components.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Even South Korea wasn't part of F35 programme. They are FMS partner. But they want to make their own stealth jet KFX. By buying F35, they got Lockheed's assitance in developing key components.

I'll tell you how india can GET F-35.
*sign away any strategic autonomy.
*act Chinese in the only way how Americans like it. Start recognition of Taiwan
*No more nuclear testing shut down all K-4 testing bla bla.
*cancel S-400 doesn't matter if you paid 650 million till now.
* all investment in Russia far east cancel them. No military purchase from Russia treat them like a enemy.
*don't take any action on Pakistan till the time American troops are in Afghanistan.

*Finally you can now get this lavish beauty F-35.and some know how about it's screwdrivers.

If this sounds a good bargain then we should definitely move ahead but god knows why there are so many dumb diplomats of india cannot understand this.

 

[ForigenSanghi]

Useless discussion going on for last several pages.

- F35 and Rafale will never face up in real live so point is moot.

- Rafale is more than enough for the threats India is facing right now.

- India will never allow USA to create any leverage by purchasing a frontline jet from them.

- France and Russia are only providers comfortable with rise of India. They will be frontline vendors for imports.

By comparison, India paid $220M per rafale ( excluding weapons cost of $0.9B)
(Including spares, maintenace kit, PBL)
Even after ISE exclusion($1.6B), to project numbers for a second batch of 36 rafales, per unit cost will be $180M.

$1bn in the old deal was spent on building infrastructure and training simulators as well.
If you remove that cost is $155m.
The performance and availability guarantees will also add to the F35 cost.

Even South Korea wasn't part of F35 programme. They are FMS partner. But they want to make their own stealth jet KFX. By buying F35, they got Lockheed's assitance in developing key components.

Last time South Korea wanted to build a jet similar to F16 and once LM got in the door they forced South Korea to downgrade to T50 a Yak130 like trainer.

Only an Idiot will think that if we let LM in the door they will let AMCA survive.

 

[learn from failures]

I'll tell you how india can GET F-35.
*sign away any strategic autonomy.
*act Chinese in the only way how Americans like it. Start recognition of Taiwan
*No more nuclear testing shut down all K-4 testing bla bla.
*cancel S-400 doesn't matter if you paid 650 million till now.
* all investment in Russia far east cancel them. No military purchase from Russia treat them like a enemy.
*don't take any action on Pakistan till the time American troops are in Afghanistan.

*Finally you can now get this lavish beauty F-35.and some know how about it's screwdrivers.

If this sounds a good bargain then we should definitely move ahead but god knows why there are so many dumb diplomats of india cannot understand this.

Forget S400 if USA gives us F35 then she will make sure we won't even be in position to buy rifles from Russia.... flanker upgrade will also become an issue.... and main thing is are we ready to completely ditch Russia our long time ally just for fancy looking F35??? Are we ready to bring our defense cooperation with Russia to zero level because of USA condition to buy F35???

Our nukes and ICBM haven't yet given us the capability to toy around our enemies.... forget F35....

 

[learn from failures]

Latest is USA has threatened Egypt with sanctions if they go ahead with sukhoi 35 and mig 35 purchase....

 

[Bhurki]

main thing is are we ready to completely ditch Russia our long time ally just for fancy looking F35??? Are we ready to bring our defense cooperation with Russia to zero level because of USA condition to buy F35

Indian forces have already moved significantly towards US-
Tu142 to P8I poseidon
Mi24 to Apache
Mi26 to Chinook
IL-76 to C17,C130
IL-78 to A330MRT ( requested)
Stipulated buy of F18E for future carrier, signing Comcasa, buying predator drones etc..
Relying of F404,414(GE is a US company) for Tejas Mk1/2, AMCA....

 

[learn from failures]

Indian forces have already moved significantly towards US-
Tu142 to P8I poseidon
Mi24 to Apache
Mi26 to Chinook
IL-76 to C17,C130
IL-78 to A330MRT ( requested)
Stipulated buy of F18E for future carrier, signing Comcasa, buying predator drones etc..
Relying of F404,414(GE is a US company) for Tejas Mk1/2, AMCA....

Nothing offensive by nature.... just defensive and logistics platforms to be in USA good books....

for S400 we choosed Russia.... for our nuke submarines we approached Russians for assistance.... what about our existing offensive platforms which are Russian?

270 flankers and planned upgrades
1400 T90s
Bramhos current and future variants
So many naval Russian platforms....

Russia won't even cooperate us for spares during wartime if stoop to this level for F35 and to please USA....

You want to say good bye to all this just to get F35??? Or just 4/5 squadrons of F35 are going to take us to the level we won't need anything in our military that is Russian....

 

[aghamarshana]

We aren't going to Unkil's brigade anytime in distant future, so chill guys.
We will not buy American jets, except engines- to work on our indigenous programmes- Tejas,MWF,AMCA and UCAV.
Only Rafales and Tejas will be brought in numbers. Add a few Rusky birdies.
If at all we go for a 5th Gen bird, it'd be Su57 that too in limited numbers.
Rest assured, we'll try to get our goodies frm all and maintaining our independent foreign policy. Our only concern shd be the engine tech.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nice question..
But whats the use if its fully effective against just lightly defended targets.
An area defended with sam systems like s300 will lock down majority of areas that rafale can operate in. It'll be locked to a low altitude, burning more fuel and decreasing range and on station time..
The f35 on the other hand will fly high and will have mininum restrictions in such defended areas which will give greater flexibility to the pilot.
Also i wouldn't call F35 non op since it has already made combat sorties in ME and patrol sorties in the arctic.

At least Rafale had already proved to be able to fly over S300 without problem when a F16CJ can't.

Rafale road map is built to go further 2060.... F4 is on track, F5 already on the drawing boards and a F6 in the pipe.

 

[BON PLAN]

F35 costs around $160M per unit in a combined deals.(spares, maintenance equip incl)
South korea order 40 jets for $6.4B.
Another 20 on table for $3.3B
Dutch are buying 46 for $7.3B
Japan cost projections are $16B for 105(pure import)
By comparison, India paid $220M per rafale ( excluding weapons cost of $0.9B)
(Including spares, maintenace kit, PBL)
Even after ISE exclusion($1.6B), to project numbers for a second batch of 36 rafales, per unit cost will be $180M.

Indian Rafale cost 95€ millions. his is the dry price, without support, weapons, training..
43.2% of 7.9 billion / 36 = 94.8 million each.

AND NEVER FORGET THAT IN THE 7.9 BILLION BILL, 50% ARE OFFSETS. i e the cost would have been much smaler for India without.

 

[BON PLAN]

At least Rafale had already proved to be able to fly over S300 without problem when a F16CJ can't.

Rafale road map is built to go further 2060.... F4 is on track, F5 already on the drawing boards and a F6 in the pipe.

.