Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

France is also part of the same pompous people. Only difference ia that France is resource poor country and hence behaves more humbly compared to countries like USA which has lots of resources or UK which has its own oil supply and USA patronage. French being less aggressive has to do with lesser amount of resources rathee than intent

I would not trust France too much and start praising it altogether. India and France have limited relationship and must not be exaggerated. I would prefer usage of more cautious words towards France which doesn't praise France while not criticise it either to maintain the right balance.

France has the 2nd bigger sea domain.... with a lot of gas, petrol, metals inside. We just have to wait the proper moment to use it (deep sea digging machines, higher prices)

 

[Prashant12]

@Sancho Any comments on bad deal by congress ? :biggrin2:

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...an-ironic-self-goal-on-indias-jet-crisis.html

 

[Prashant12]

More bad news for @Sancho & Eurofighter for MMRCA 2.0 :biggrin2:


Exclusive: Agusta papers reveal Christian Michel was also lobbying against Rafale to win deal for Eurofighter

Documents accessed by India Today TV have now revealed that two middlemen accused of getting kickbacks in the VVIP Agustawestland chopper deal, including Christian Michel, were strategising for Rafale's competitor Eurofighter, in order to seal the deal in its favour.

Christian Michel, an alleged middleman in the AgustaWestland chopper deal, was also lobbying for Rafale's competitor. (Image: Reuters)
HIGHLIGHTS

• India released the request for proposal to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in 2007 to six bidders
• Documents reveal Agusta middlemen Christian Michel and Guido Haschke made ‘strategy’ for Rafale’s prime competitor Eurofighter
• Rafale beat Eurofighter in the final evaluation process to qualify for MMRCA deal

On Wednesday in Lok Sabha during a discussion on the Rafale jet deal, when some Opposition members started throwing paper planes in the House, Finance Minister Arun Jaitley made a pun and said, "I think these planes are being flown in the memory of Eurofighters".

In August 2007 when request for proposal (RFP) to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) was released by India, France's Rafale was competing with five other fighter jets. By April 2011, following a complex evaluation and testing procedure of the Air Force, the final competition was reduced between two fighter jets, Dassault's Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, from which Rafale was chosen over Eurofighter.

Documents accessed by India Today TV have now revealed that two middlemen accused of getting kickbacks in the VVIP Agustawestland chopper deal also strategised for Rafale's competitor Eurofighter in order to seal the deal in its favour.


A "strategy paper" seized during the raids at Italian middleman Guido Haschke's residence and offices has revealed that Christian Michel and Guido Haschke worked on a plan to place Rafale's prime competitor in the "win zone".

A need to engage "an in-country bureaucratical and political navigator" has also been mentioned in the documents.

"This man should have worked in the MOD and know well on first name basis and not just the MOD, key bureaucrats and the minister but also the PM, Finance Minister and the Leading Family," the document further reads.

The strategy paper allegedly prepared with consultation from Christian Michel and Guido Haschke further notes, "there are only 3 candidates for such a job and only one of the 3 is available".

While the strategy paper recovered from the Italian middleman talked about lobbying the politicians, a plan to lobby three Air Force officials is also mentioned as "the 3 bosses of maintenance must be lobbed i.e. Chief of Maintenance Command, Air Officer Maintenance and Chief of Engineering".

Christian Michel is currently in custody and is being investigated by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) and Enforcement Directorate (ED) for his role in the AgustaWestland chopper deal case.

Guido Haschke is an Italian businessman who is also named as an accused in the chopper deal case. He served a brief sentence in Italy and became a witness following which a red corner notice against his name, which was issued on the request of India, was withdrawn by the Interpol.

Eurofighter is designed by a consortium of multinational defence companies from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain. Italian firm Finmeccanica which makes AgustaWestland choppers owns 21 per cent shares in the Eurofighter consortium.

A source familiar with the process told India Today TV, "This strategy paper was prepared in 2008 and was given for the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) but it was not known if and to what extent the company used the services of these middlemen".

Michel and Haschke had a fallout after the signing of the VVIP chopper deal in 2010 while Rafale and Eurofighter were still competing to win the contract for 126 fighter jets.

It was only in 2012 that it was announced that Rafale had won the competition but the final deal could not be signed as negotiations continued. The NDA government later signed a deal with the French government to buy 36 Rafale fighter planes in a flyaway condition citing urgent requirements of the Air Force.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...o-win-deal-for-eurofighter-1424921-2019-01-06

 

[WolfPack86]

I think congress got money from EuroFighter Typhoon company.

 

[captscooby81]

The First F3R Naval version of Rafale with AESA delivered to French Navy

 

[BON PLAN]

https://defence-blog.com/news/french-navy-received-its-first-rafale-upgraded-to-f3-r-standard.html

same news, from another source.

 

[captscooby81]

Fake News Alert from Pidi Ecosystem :bs:

The Actual Fact

 

[Sancho]

I think congress got money from EuroFighter Typhoon company.

To make Rafale a winner? :biggrin2:

Think about it logically, Dassault had issues even back in the initial stage of replying to the RFP. So that would have been the first chance to knock Rafale out, didn't happened.
Shortlisting could had been the 2nd, L1 selection the 3rd, non compliance to the RFP the 4th, all that ended in favour for Rafale, so "if" he was lobbying in favour for EF, he certainly did a bad job and it evidently had no effect.

 

[Sancho]

@Sancho Any comments on bad deal by congress ? :biggrin2:

Bad deal by Congress in 1984??? Lol that's the excuse now for missing the requirements in 2015 as livefist shows too (requirement 126 / deal signed 36)?

Whataboutery doesn't help IAF, no matter who and how, IAF needs more MMRCAs!

 

[Sancho]

..................

 

[Prashant12]

Bad deal by Congress in

1984

??? Lol that's the excuse now for missing the requirements in 2015 as livefist shows too (requirement 126 / deal signed 36)?

So you agree that it was bad deal by congress ? :biggrin2:

Whataboutery doesn't help IAF, no matter who and how, IAF needs more MMRCAs!

Then stop blaming NDA govt.

To make Rafale a winner? :biggrin2:

Think about it logically, Dassault had issues even back in the initial stage of replying to the RFP. So that would have been the first chance to knock Rafale out, didn't happened.
Shortlisting could had been the 2nd, L1 selection the 3rd, non compliance to the RFP the 4th, all that ended in favour for Rafale, so "if" he was lobbying in favour for EF, he certainly did a bad job and it evidently had no effect.

Really ? :biggrin2:

 

[Sancho]

Then stop blaming NDA govt.

That's the difference, I don't say what about like you, but point to the facts directly. That's why I can blame the government in charge, for bad deals or indecisiveness wrt the MMRCA requirement.
Only people with no arguments use whataboutery.

Really ? :biggrin2:

Yes indeed, becaue the lobbying is said to happen in the MMRCA tender, but Congress asked why the 2nd complying fighter (according to NDA government itself) was not considered and a single vendor deal made? So the 1 has nothing to do with the other and as explained, no lobbying effect on any decisions in the MMRCA.

 

[Prashant12]

That's the difference, I don't say what about like you, but point to the facts directly. That's why I can blame the government in charge, for bad deals or indecisiveness wrt the MMRCA requirement.
Only people with no arguments use whataboutery.

What Facts ?

Real fact is
1) Congress ignored mirage 2000 deal which includes TOT & local manufacturing.
2) IAF wanted 126 mirage 2000 after kargil war & not so called MMRCA.

Stop lying.

Yes indeed, becaue the lobbying is said to happen in the MMRCA tender, but Congress asked why the 2nd complying fighter (according to NDA government itself) was not considered

When Finmeccanica is blacklisted question of considering EF does not arise.

Eurofighter is designed by a consortium of multinational defence companies from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain. Italian firm Finmeccanica which makes AgustaWestland choppers owns 21 per cent shares in the Eurofighter consortium.

With Finmeccanica blacklisted EF & Gripen have no chance in so called MMRCA 2.0 :biggrin2:

and a single vendor deal made? So the 1 has nothing to do with the other and as explained,

All most every defence deal under UPA was single vendor so stop your propaganda.

eg: C130J, C17, P8i, Mi17v5 etc.

no lobbying effect on any decisions in the MMRCA.

Then why not sign 126 Rafales ?
When did india legalize lobbying in defence deals ?

Stop defending the indefensible & accept fact that congress did not sign 126 Rafales nor 110 mirage 200 2000 with tot & local manufacturing.

 

[Prashant12]

====================================

 

[sorcerer]

Five claims in The Hindu’s Rafale report that don’t quite add up
Yesterday, The Hindu published a report on the Rafale deal—claiming that the price settled for was too high, that the government violated laid-down procedures and guidelines, and that an opportunity to negotiate a better price by leveraging a competing offer from a competing vendor was foregone. The report contains some glaring assertions that are not borne out by the facts. What follows is a breakdown of five major goof-ups.

Claim 1:
“Modi’s decision to buy 36 Rafales shot the price of each jet up by 41%”
Fact:

The 2007 bid price is not directly comparable with the 2016 contract owing to the price inflation and exchange rate variation that occurred in the nine intervening years. In order to account for these risks, the original bid contained an escalation clause that steadily raised the price of the aircraft every year. If the value of the 2007 bid, on a per aircraft basis, were adjusted to 2016—the year the Rafale agreement was formally signed—it would have resulted in a price of €100.85 million for each bare-bones aircraft. This was higher than the €91.7 million that was negotiated by the government in 2016. Thus, the government’s claim of a 9% discount makes economic sense, while The Hindu’s claim of 41% escalation does not.

Moreover, the debate over raw numbers neglects a vital point: that the comparison isn’t really apples-to-apples. Dassault’s 2007 bid was for an F3 standard Rafale. The current deal is for a more advanced variant, as well as India-specific enhancements that boost its effectiveness. Claiming a 41% price escalation between the two would be equivalent to comparing the 2007 price of a Maruti Swift LDi with the 2016 price of a customised Swift ZXi, and concluding that the price of the car has shot up.

Claim 2:
The F3-R Rafale possesses “practically the same configuration and capabilities” as the older F3 model . . . “Dassault claimed a €1.4 billion cost for the ‘design and development’ of . . . additional capabilities in the form of hardware as well as software that had been specified by the Indian Air Force all along.”
Fact:

We know from earlier reports on the topic that the additional capabilities went beyond the Indian Air Force’s specifications in the MMRCA tender. The Economic Times reported in February that “The Rafales being procured under the current deal has a better weapons suite such as the game-changer METEOR missiles”. This was also corroborated by a report published in India Today in the same month.

Also, the F3-R standard Rafale represents a vast improvement over the F3. It can carry the long-range Meteor air-to-air missile (which significantly outranges the MICA missile that the F3 could carry, as well as boasts superior terminal-phase kinematic performance), upgraded AASM smart bombs which can be guided via in-built infrared seekers (in addition to the inertial and GPS guidance the legacy versions had), and the Talios laser designation pod; whereas the F3 could not. It also sports improved avionics, upgraded software, improved flight controls and other enhancements that give it a significant edge over the F3 standard Rafale. These enhancements were so significant, that the French government budgeted €1 billion for the research and development that went into them in 2014.

It was also reported earlier that the India Air Force’s Rafales would not be restricted to the F3-R standard. The agreement makes provision for further improvements that are slated to be implemented under the F4 standard to be transferred to the Indian fleet as well.

Claim 3:
“Big increase in Rafale's price came because a deal bypassing mandated procedures and made in the face of official objections”
Reality:

Not a single example of any arm of the government “bypassing mandated procedures” has been presented in the report. The author has portrayed a majority decision by the Indian Negotiating Team (INT) in the face of objections by a minority of the team’s members as a violation of procedures, and guidelines, but this is not true. As the Ministry of Defence states in its reply, the views and objections of individual committee members are always recorded, and committees vote on the final decision. Far from being a violation of procedure, this is collective decision-making, done in the best traditions of a democratic set-up.

Claim 4:
“Mr Parrikar shied away from his responsibility and . . . passed the buck, to the Cabinet Committee on Security”
Reality:

The progression of the final agreement—from the INT’s approval to the DAC’s review to the CCS’s—ratification is what we call “following the process”, as outlined in the 2013 Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP). The Defence Minister did not “pass the buck”. Had he decided to unilaterally override any committee’s (which he was empowered to do, but chose not to) it would have been seen as improper, and only prompted further allegations of wrongdoing and dictatorial decision making.

Claim 5:
“The opportunity to make full use of the leverage provided by the new offer from the Eurofighter Consortium was lost.”
Reality:

The DPP makes no provision for “leveraging” one bid against the other, and could very easily be interpreted as prohibiting it. Equipment is to be purchased either by soliciting competitive bids from multiple vendors, or directly from friendly foreign countries via an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA). The latter route was chosen for the Rafale deal considering the Air Force’s urgent needs. There was no path to leveraging an offer from Eurofighter (a vendor) against one from the government of a friendly nation (France).

https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/01/19/five-claims-in-the-hindus-rafale-report-that-dont-add-up

 

[WolfPack86]

The 36 Rafale fighters will be delivered between Nov 2019 & April 2022. But the 13 India-Specific Enhancements or upgrades on the jets will become fully operational only by September-October 2022 because they will require another 6 months to undergo “software certification”

According to Times of India around Rs 34,000 crore” has been paid in milestone-linked instalments. Another instalment of Rs 13,000 crore is to be made later this year.

IAF plans to base a squadron of 18 Rafales each at the Ambala and Hasimara (West Bengal) airbases to cater to the two fronts with Pakistan and China.
.https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[BON PLAN]

Fake News Alert from Pidi Ecosystem :bs:

View attachment 31040 View attachment 31041

The Actual Fact

View attachment 31042

It's not the real truth :
The 2 billions (exactly 1.9) is for the F4 developpment ONLY.
The 28 last rafale of the 180 ordered yet by france may be turned into F4 from the beginning, but it's another story.
And appart these 28, the french defense ministry asked that there is another order for 30 in the pipe (for a total of 210).

 

[BON PLAN]

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2019/columnists/demystifying-rafale-riddle.html

Demystifying Rafale riddle

The UPA created the policy of allowing foreign defence manufacturers to decide their partners for fulfilling offset obligations. Why is it having a problem with Dassault's selection then?

The debate surrounding the purchase of 36 Rafale jets by the Modi Government from Dassault Aviation has one critical element that needs to be mentioned. It was an emergency purchase necessitated by the dwindling fleet of the IAF, massive fleet augmentation by both Pakistan and China in the last decade and negotiations between Dassault and HAL over production of Rafale in India reaching a dead end. The 36 fighters or two squadrons, one each for the western and eastern fronts, are expected to contain the downslide of the IAF fleet even as negotiations continue for bigger deals.

Why 36 and not 126:
An emergency purchase cannot be of the entire quantity but of the bare minimum requirement and thus the order was for 36 and not 126. Also, as mentioned by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, there is enough precedence of India opting for two squadrons initially while acquiring new platforms as was the case with acquisition of MiG-29, MiG-23 and Mirage-2000s in the 1980s and then going forward for follow-on acquisition of more platforms once IAF was reasonably acclimatised itself with the platform.

Government in process of acquiring 229 combat craft in total:
Further, the decision of the Modi Government to purchase 36 Rafale jets was complemented with RFP sent by IAF to HAL for an additional 83 LCA in Mark 1A configuration. Likewise, an RFI has also been issued for acquisition of 110 combat craft to be made in India by a shortlisted global aerospace manufacturer under the strategic partnership model. Therefore, India is in the process of acquisition of 229 combat craft for IAF in total. This nixes the false argument that Government is only buying 36 craft.

Why Rafale:
Dassault Rafale was shortlisted for IAF during the UPA era. Spread over several months, IAF had already conducted extensive technical and flight evaluations, based on more than 600 parameters. Thus, purchasing Rafale by the Modi Government made sense. Just because of stalled negotiations between HAL and Dassault, it would have made no sense if the NDA Government had chosen some other jet or started the process all over again.

What went wrong with HAL:
In fact, negotiations between HAL and Dassault reaching a dead-end had little to do with the quality of Rafale and more to do with the refusal of Dassault to agree to the humongous man-hour quoted by HAL (2.7 times more than what Dassault needs to make a Rafale) for the deal, and also, the refusal of Dassault to guarantee the quality of production if the jets were to be built by HAL in India. Under the MMRCA project, HAL was supposed to manufacture 108 planes in India while 18 were to be procured in fly-away condition from Dassault’s factory. This was eventually scrapped.

Incidentally, Dassault’s complaints about HAL’s production quality has precedence too. In 2015, Boeing had walked out of a contract with HAL for construction of weapons bay doors for P8I Poseidon aircraft due to alleged “poor quality” of production by HAL. Before that, WikiLeaks released a confidential cable sent by former US Ambassador to India Timothy Roemer in which he wrote, “The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect.”

On the issue of why 36 Rafales ordered by the Modi Government are not being manufactured in India, the UPA should first answer why its purchase of aircraft like C-17, C-130J and P-8I Poseidon happened as off-the-shelf purchases from abroad instead of them being manufactured in India by HAL. If the rationale then was justified that the quantum was too small for licence production in India, the same logic applies now too for 36 Rafale.

Myth surrounding CCS approval:
A dubious allegation that has often been made by Opposition parties is that the Modi Government went ahead and announced the deal without necessary approval of the Cabinet Committee of Security or CCS. For the uninitiated, as per Defence Procurement Procedure, CCS approval is needed just before signing of the final contract with equipment manufacturer for a deal, and not before that. Incidentally, when Prime Minister Modi announced in France in April 2015 that India would acquire 36 Dassault Rafale in fly-away condition from France, it was a mere ‘Statement of Intent’ which does not need CCS approval. This was followed by intense negotiation on pricing over several months by the Contract Negotiation Committee. As per reports, the CCS approval was given in August 2016 followed by signing of the final contract in September 2016, which is absolutely in tune with laid down rules.

Myth of Rs 520 crore price:
During his speech in Lok Sabha in July 2018, Congress chief Rahul Gandhi had stated that UPA had negotiated a price of Rs 520 core for each Rafale combat jet. One should ask Congress if this includes the cost of missiles, avionics, spares and training. If yes, then where is the documentary evidence? If not, then what was UPA negotiating for Rs 520 crore? Why could it not conclude the deal with Dassault even then?

In reality, for Rs 520 crore in the present day, one would not even get the chassis of a Rafale jet, leave alone a battle-proven, combat capable aircraft armed with missiles and avionics. In the battlefield, a fighter jet without requisite weapon systems, cutting edge avionics and spares is comparable to a bullock cart which may be good enough for air show acrobatics but not good enough for fighting wars and winning them.

As per reports, the Rafales ordered by Modi Government would be armed with Scalp cruise missiles with a 500 km range, air-to-air missiles like Meteor with around 100 km range, Thales made Spectra Electronic Warfare Suite, RBE2 AESA radar and Thales’ Airborne Reconnaissance Observation System, namely AREOS. There are also reports of specific enhancements (possibly to carry Brahmos) to be made on Rafales for India. All these cost money. Therefore, in addition to the price of the basic craft negotiated by Modi Government for Rs 670 crore a piece (compared to Rs 737 Crore of UPA for the basic craft) the rest of the cost can be justifiably attributed to weapon systems and avionics.

Additionally, the current deal for 36 Rafales also has an unprecedented 50 per cent offset and local sourcing clause, which means that Dassault and its tier-1 vendors would have to invest back around Rs 30,000 crore in developing aerospace capabilities in India through joint ventures with Indian companies, source components from them and thus eventually help Indian companies become part of the global aerospace supply chain.

The irrationality of Rs 520 crore claim:
The irrationality of the Rs 520 crore price quoted by Rahul Gandhi can be proved by the fact that for a basic platform of LCA MK 1A, HAL is quoting a price of Rs 463 crore a piece, which does not even include cost of logistics or weapon systems. Does it then make sense if it is claimed that a weapon and avionics-laced fifth generation Rafale (which is a generation ahead of the LCA MK1A), would be made available to India for a mere Rs 520 crore? If in 2011, UPA could spend $3.9 billion for upgradation of 25-year-old Mirage 2000s of IAF wherein it agreed to pay $2.4 billion to Dassault for upgradation, an additional $1 billion for complementary weapons and another $500 million more for developing a facility for HAL to get them modernised here with Dassault’s support, then one wonders on what ground Rahul Gandhi expects an armed Rafale to cost a mere Rs 520 crore a piece in 2016.

Truth about offset:
Perhaps the biggest misinformation that has been spread systematically is that the Anil Ambani Group has replaced HAL in the Rafale deal and that Ambani’s company would be getting Rs 30,000 crore of contracts. First, Reliance Defence has not replaced HAL. Rafales being procured by the Modi Government would be built in France and not in India. Therefore, there is no question of them being made by Reliance. Second, of the Rs 30,000 crore worth of offset and local component sourcing obligation of Dassault and its tier-1 vendors, namely Safran and Thales, the biggest beneficiary is DRDO.

Recently, a television channel graphically explained how DRDO would get Rs 9000 crore worth of offset benefits through collaboration with Safran, which would help it in reviving the stalled Kaveri engine programme. The remaining Rs 21,000 crore worth of offset obligations are to be split among around 90 odd companies which are proposed offset partners of Dassault, Thales and Safran. Out of those 90 companies, Reliance has one joint venture each with Thales and Dassault. The list also includes other companies like the state-owned BEL, Samtel, HCL, Mahindra Aerostructures, L&T, IBM India, TCS, Tata Advanced Systems, Godrej & Boyce and Wipro Infrastructure Engineering to name a few. As per media reports, the total offset contracts accruing to Reliance Defence may be just over three per cent of the Rs 30,000-crore offsets in the offing.

Incidentally, it was during the UPA era that a policy decision was institutionalised which stated, “The OEM/vendor/Tier-I sub-vendor will be free to select the Indian offset partner for implementing the offset obligation, provided the IOP has not been barred from doing business by the Ministry of Defence.” This is as per Section 4.3 of the ‘Defence Procurement Procedure-Revision of Defence Offset Guidelines’, approved by the Ministry of Defence on July 23, 2012. In other words, it was the UPA which created the policy of allowing the foreign defence manufacturers to decide their Indian partners for offset obligation fulfilment. If Rahul Gandhi had no problem with this policy during the UPA era, one wonders why he has a problem with Dassault’s selection of offset partners now?

 

[BON PLAN]

Qatar to receive first Rafale fighters early for February
https://defence-blog.com/news/qatar-to-receive-first-rafale-fighters-early-for-february.html

Of a moderate size, yet extremely powerful, superbly agile and very discrete, the latest type of combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation does not only integrate the largest and most modern range of sensors, it also multiplies their efficiency with a technological breakthrough, the “multi-sensor data fusion”.

 

[Tactical Frog]

More Rafale goodies ( Rafale flying over Réunion Island)

http://www.xfru.it/fHBsX1