Know Your 'Rafale'

I4U

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Do not want to sound pedantic, but as a matter of accuracy the F-35B is meant to replace the USMC´s Hornet and Harrier II (AV-8B). The F-35A will replace the USAF´s flying Gatling gun aka A-10. Not a very sexy machine but bloody efficient for its specific dedicated role.
You just stress the fact they won't have, with the F35, a replacement for an airdominance aircraft when LM is selling the F35 as a full multirole aircraft. In the beginning, US were developping a hi-lo mix, with the F22 for the hi, the F35 for the lo. Since the F22 isn't produced any more, the F35 is 'rebranded' full multirole.
But the Aussies pilots aren't convinced with the A2A ability of the F35.
They could buy the last F15 SE.
 

vanadium

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UK = 107
Germany = 140
Italy = 96
Spain = 73
SKA = 24 + 48 not secured
Austria = 15



France will order 294 Rafale. It is likely Rafale would win the INs tender as well as Brasil if they are serious about a carrier. I do not know why India needs a separate tender for nuclear penetration. Just add 40 Rafale. Qatar will most definitively buy 24 Rafale, this is fact considering the relations. Kuwait wants to be compatible with UAE and Qatar so when UAE buys, Kuwait orders 36. Kuwait assembly keeps arguing about it not being exported... they just lost their main argument. Yeah, so if Rafale M wins carrier tenders, we will see orders explode.



Rafale is even being considered to replace UK F-35s... the opportunities are endless when you also have a Marine version.
Have you read Cameron´s reactions to Rafale selection in India? Can you see the guy (or any other British PM, for that matter) ordering Rafale for the Royal Navy? (BTW should that happen I owe you a dinner in a decent Paris restaurant)

You might wait though for Scotland, if its independence quest is successful in 2014. They might inherit a carrier: in which case, given the good historical linkages between France and l´ Ecosse, Dassault has a great chance. As you say, the opportunities are endless!
 

vanadium

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I guess SKA's first 72 orders will still go through, regardless of issues. The follow on option will face problems because of their F-15 buy.



French orders will obviously get a boost. The ALA ACM must be the happiest man right now, outside of Dassault.

The IN has vocally supported Rafale. If the IN tender turns out to be political or favouring the cheaper aircraft with high levels of ToT, Rafale has already won. Sea Gripen and Sea Typhoon aren't capable contenders, especially the Typhoon because of costs. Super Hornet, IN won't touch em. They will probably be made to take part just to provide competition. Only F-35 may end up being in the way of a Rafale victory. Rafale for the Navy may end up being cheaper than the IAF version because of already secured large orders.

I guess Kuwait is only being careful. But you never know what the Middle East ends up doing. Heck they may all end up buying the F-35. Other than Qatar and UAE there is also Oman.



With all that mud slinging going on over Rafale's victory in the MRCA deal in the UK, there is no way in hell any UK govt will buy the Rafale now. RN will cry about it and still end up being a F-35 customer. Nobody, anywhere cried about EF's defeat in Japan. But they are quite angry over a French victory in India. Quite touchy, these EF guys. It would be the same with any country belonging to the EF consortium. Rafale is an untouchable now.

Forget the Middle East, there are other countries that require aircraft. Korea is there, but they may be a bunch of F-35 buyers as well. Vietnam and Philippines are available as clients. Indonesia may buy Russian or go for the Japan 5th gen JV, but may have room for the Rafale. So, that's Asia.

Libya with it's oil deposits may either buy the used Mirages or new Rafales, a good choice to have. I don't think there is any other African country interested in a new jet.

Australia, Rafale will only take part in a losing battle, no point.

Argentina is a possible buyer if the political situation is favourable. A few other countries like Peru and Chile may help.

Forget the Swiss. Every country follows procedure. Gripen beat all other aircraft in the deal and Rafale has a chance only if the deal is re-tendered. I think all other European countries may go for the F-35 save for Greece and Serbia. Greece's economy may improve over time and they may need a replacement aircraft for their F-16s and Mirage-2000s. Turkey is buying the F-35, so Greece will follow with new aircraft. There is Serbia with their squadron deal, but they will simply choose the second cheapest bird after the JF-17. :becky:

Most other countries like Venezuela and Poland are either in the Russian camp or the American camp. So, no point trying to pull them apart. The best bet is to get a proper contract done for the UAE deal. The Indian deal victory obviously helps reduce the cost big time. Pull in Brazil and Qatar after that and hope Kuwait joins in. I would say the Indian MRCA victory will help bag these countries easily as compared to before. 31st, Jan 2012 is definitely a very memorable day for Dassault and France.
Re. Rafale in the UK, if Scotland becomes independent and inherit one carrier then...

India and Japan. Two different ball games. One was, and might still be, a reasonable prospect with a decent chance of victory. Japan I am afraid was a very very ambitious target with a much more limited chance of success. So really no big disappointment there, as most people did not expect an outcome different from what took place.

If Rafale wins Brazil (big IF but possible) and Embraer gets the assembly line and rights of export marketing as promised by Dassault, then the countries you name in South America might show up on the radar screen.
 
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vanadium

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You just stress the fact they won't have, with the F35, a replacement for an airdominance aircraft when LM is selling the F35 as a full multirole aircraft. In the beginning, US were developping a hi-lo mix, with the F22 for the hi, the F35 for the lo. Since the F22 isn't produced any more, the F35 is 'rebranded' full multirole.
But the Aussies pilots aren't convinced with the A2A ability of the F35.
They could buy the last F15 SE.
I did not stress that, I simply wanted to redress a couple of minor things.

JSF has been branded "multirole" from the very start, as it takes up also the A-A role of the F-16C (USAF) and Hornet (USN). We might debate its suitability for that mission, but it would not be fair to the other members to do it in this thread.
 

KS

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Why do Brazilians need Rafale for...?

Precision strike any country in Latin America that defeats them in soccer ?
 

LETHALFORCE

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Armand2REP

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Thales TopSight, produced at Samtel

 
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asianobserve

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Vietnam and Rafale... never happen. Philippines is too poor.
Vietnam will buy mainly Russian aircrafts. The Philippines is not too poor. It's 2010 GDP per capita is $3,925 and ranked worldwide as 121, while Indian GDP per capita for the same period is $3,586 and ranked 124 (Top 10 Countries: GDP per capita, Gross Domestic Product : PinoyMoneyTalk.com – Make Money Online, Stocks, Forex, Mutual Funds Philippines). The IMF's 2011 estimate puts the Philippines at No. 125 while India and Vietnma are at Nos. 135 and 140, respectively. The problem with the Philippines is that it does not spend for its military. As of 2009 the defense spending of the Philippines is only 0.8% of its GDP while Indian spending 2.8% (with the latest string of military purchases this figure is only bound to increase). In our case we spent for defence for the same period 2.0% of our GDP (List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

So the Philippines (and to a large extent, Vietnam) is a potentially lucrative defence market going forward, if international defence contractors can coax its government away from its anti-militaristic post-Marcos stance. Note that all major financial institutions has projected Phililpine economic growth to dramatic in the next 20-30 years.
 
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Armand2REP

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It doesn't matter what their per capita GDP is. The only GDP figure that matter is % on defence and that is a meagre 0.81%. Same level as Jamaica or Madagascar. At $1.4b annually, they can't afford boots for their shoelaces.
 

Armand2REP

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Have you read Cameron´s reactions to Rafale selection in India? Can you see the guy (or any other British PM, for that matter) ordering Rafale for the Royal Navy? (BTW should that happen I owe you a dinner in a decent Paris restaurant)

You might wait though for Scotland, if its independence quest is successful in 2014. They might inherit a carrier: in which case, given the good historical linkages between France and l´ Ecosse, Dassault has a great chance. As you say, the opportunities are endless!
I watched him during PM questions. He had his response ready for counter attack. It was pretty stupid to suggest he can make India change its mind but even more stupid to say in public EF is better than Rafale... how embarrassing. :shocked:

The secession of Scotland means the end of the UK.
 

JAISWAL

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MMRCA After Action: What Lessons Should Eurofighter Learn?

MMRCA After Action: What Lessons Should Eurofighter Learn?
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MMRCA After Action: What Lessons Should Eurofighter Learn?
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What lessons should the Eurofighter Typhoon
consortium draw from India's decision to pursue
MMRCA contract negotiations with rival Dassault
Aviation for the Rafale?
The initial reaction in Eurofighter countries has
been a mix of disappointment and disbelief. What
has been notably absent, so far, is any soul
searching on how this massive tender was lost.
Other losses, such as Japan, could be relatively
easily explained away and did not require such an
after-action assessment; but the India situation is
different. The stakes were simply too high.
There has been little indication that the
consortium members are ready to open that can
of worms. But here are just some of the
questions that may need to be raised:
"¢Was Germany the right country to lead the
campaign?
"¢Was the absence of a firm contract to develop
the AESA radar a strategic handicap?
"¢Did the U.K.'s long reluctance to properly discuss
Typhoon operations in Libya mean Rafale got all
the bragging rights for the campaign?
"¢Is the diverse consortium structure a handicap in
devising complex offset packages, when it should
be an asset because work can be spread across more companies?
 

JAISWAL

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EADS Still Waiting in the Wings - The Source - WSJ
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EADS Still Waiting in the Wings

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Executives at Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran may have cracked open the champagne this week when the Indian government chose Dassault's Rafale multirole combat aircraft over the Anglo-German-Italian Eurofighter to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 jets. But like Grand Prix racing, one podium finish doesn't a champion make.
To be sure, the news that Dassault and New Delhi are now in exclusive talks about delivering the Rafale was welcome for the French. Dassault has still to win an export contract for a plane that the company is marketing as a Swiss army knife for the world's air forces, capable of air-air, air-ground and land and carrier-based roles.
But Dassault has been here before. Over the
years, it has been reported to be in the final
stages of winning contracts with South Korea,
Morocco, Switzerland, Brazil and the United Arab
Emirates only to see these deals disappear like a
desert mirage.
Not only that, the Indian defense ministry says
the proposal by Dassault involving a technology
transfer on an unprecedented scale for the plane
maker was cheaper than the Eurofighter. That
raised some eyebrows in French government
circles where at least one minister has said that,
while the Rafale may be the most sophisticated
combat aircraft on the market, its complexity
comes at a price.
Indeed, in international arms deals of this
magnitude, it's not clear what the notion of
"price" is.
The tough negotiating on the Indian contract
starts now, and it could take six months to a year
to iron all the details, especially those governing
technology transfer. The deal as it stands calls for
Dassault to supply the first 18 planes out of a total
of 126 off the shelf while India is setting up a
production line for the rest.
The Team Rafale negotiating the finer points of the
deal comprises specialists from Dassault, Thales
(which supplies radars and avionics) and Safran
(which makes the two M88 engines). The issue of
how much technology can be transferred
without risk to the loss of intellectual property will
be central in these talks.
It remains to be seen how much technology
India's aeronautical industry can absorb,
especially as the three French contractors may be
obliged to offer offsets equivalent to 50% of the
estimated $10 billion to $15 billion value of the
contract.
Indian defense company Hindustan Aeronautics
Ltd, which is likely to get the work, already has its
work cut out managing cooperation programs
with many other aircraft manufacturers, notably
Russia's Sukhoi with whom it is developing a
new fighter jet.
Meanwhile, local rules in India forbid foreign
companies from owning more than 26% of a
joint-venture. The Rafale contract, even if it
materializes, could also disappoint for other
reasons further down the runway.
Doing business in India is notoriously difficult for
foreign companies. According to a World Bank
survey, India is second only to East Timor in its
poor record for enforcing contracts.
Then there are the losers. Dassault can expect
considerable interference from its competitors as
they try to derail the French bid. U.K. Prime
Minister David Cameron told Parliament this week
that he will do everything he can to get the Indian
government to change its mind and buy the
Eurofighter Typhoon made by BAE Systems,
European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co and
Italy's Alenia Aeromacchi, a unit of Finmeccanica.
Whatever the outcome, EADS is a winner of sorts
from the Indian competition. It owns 46.3% of
Dassault Aviation, and it has a 46% stake in the
Eurofighter consortium, acting as the prime
bidder for the Indian contract. Still, this is an
expensive way of winning new business.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Istres 2005:



Admiral Arun Prakash (retd.)
"Having flown both the F/A-18 and the Rafale, I can say that while the former would certainly have met all the IAF requirements competently and economically, the breathtaking performance of the latter leaves one in no doubt that it is a "generation-next" machine."

From:
Arun Prakash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

SPIEZ

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I think the good Admiral needs to participate in DFI... Rafale is not next gen, it's current gen (and in the twilight of its generation). PAKFA and J-20 are next gen...
What differentiates a 4.5 gen fighter from a 5 gen fighter ? I m guessing stealth, right ?

If it is stealth, no one can hide a whole 18 tonne aircraft from any sort of visibility in the sky. They ll have to have a Low Observable build/design right, and use Radar Absorbing Material (RAM) which would further throw the maintenance and life cycle cost skywards.

The most possible difference would have to be electronics(RADAR, Sensor such as optics like FLIR, ability to identify, distinguish and remain locked on to the target, noise cancellation,etc ). France has access to many critical electronics and the software, however I doubt China/Russia/India would have access to those. Also France has had the experience which others don't.

This is why I believe the Western Equipment have an edge over the Eastern (Chinese) ones.
 
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