Know Your 'Rafale'

[gadeshi]

L-Band can detect X-Band optimized stealth aircrafts due to its wave length is greater than 15-20% of the most RF problematic parts.
This creates RF reflection peaks on those parts edges where longer waves exceed part border. This is called Edge Waves Effect.
M-BAND waves are larger than 100% of plane parts, so it creates huge reflection peaks visible from large distances.

Niebo-U radars are not for precise detection or guidance, they are for early warning and situation awareness.
So precision of 5-7km is not critical for them.
You need to know the fact of stealth target presence in the certain quadrant to make in time decision what to do with it. If you know it is there you can put additional measures to make additional recon or pass the target to fire units.
Modern SAMs have ARH seekers and inertial guidance with radio correction. So you need just 10x10 km quadrant where to launch them to, and they will find their targets themselves.

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[StealthFlanker]

L-Band can detect X-Band optimized stealth aircrafts due to its wave length is greater than 15-20% of the most RF problematic parts.
This creates RF reflection peaks on those parts edges where longer waves exceed part border. This is called Edge Waves Effect.

1)radar detection is not binary , there is no such thing as an aircraft that is always invisible to radar or a radar that can detect aircraft from any distance. . All radar can see all aircraft , the important question is at what distance can they do that.(aka what important is their RCS at that specific aspect and frequency )


2)stealth aircraft do not suddenly have RCS of thousand dBsm in low frequency , their RCS simply increased because when the wavelength is close to the physical dimension of target , the surface wave will generate creeping wave return ( that the reason why shaping become less effective )

But even that effect doesnt increased RCS that much

so no your NEBO VSU will not see F-35 from 650 km

M-BAND waves are larger than 100% of plane parts, so it creates huge reflection peaks visible from large distances.

this is absolute nonsense , wavelength of M band is merely 3-5 mm ways shorter than X band and L band https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M_band

Niebo-U radars are not for precise detection or guidance, they are for early warning and situation awareness.
So precision of 5-7km is not critical for them.

So how do you want to attack something if you cant generate firing solution accurate enough ?

Modern SAMs have ARH seekers and inertial guidance with radio correction. So you need just 10x10 km quadrant where to launch them to, and they will find their targets themselves.

Even the old AAM like AIM-120A have ARH seeker and datalink too , if even fighter and SAM radar are struggle to find stealth aircraft how far do you think the tiny seeker of missiles can detect stealth fighter ?
moreover , missiles especially long range missiles do not fly a direct path at target, they fly a loft curve to take advantages of the thin air , a 10*10 km box will mean your missiles dive down ways late or ways too early to hit target.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Sir, for that red color part, few powerful Indian people also wants it.
It is sad, but true.

Anyway, which aircraft you like -----> F-16 / Gripen.

BTW, my choice is Gripen E.

And that per hour operating cost for Gripen is wrong.

It should be per operating hour (for Gripen C) , about $ 7200.

It is safe to say F-16 is an old duck which only deserves a farewell. When rest of the meaningful world is retiring F-16 why a major airforce like IAF shall buy it? Is there a sense?

Gripen E! The cake of the matter is what is highlighted in red(previous post). Why go for an aircraft when you are already developing one ourselves which is almost similar? Where is the difference other than waiting for extra two or three years? Also, Swedish Air Force is already looking/planing for an in-future replacement of their Gripen E. They are trying to get aboard KAI's or TAI's stealth air fighter projects. Same with their proposal for the development of AMCA. Interestingly, they want their own MMR, Data-Link and everything else on AMCA. Thereby, effectively killing multiple indigenous projects, at least Uttam for sure. Where is the gain for us?

You know for a country like us and air force like IAF there is no other option than sourcing indigenously. The capital-loss which is there with any purchase of military hardware can only be minimised if we produce ourselves and get our investment back in the form of Jobs it will create and money we will make by exporting these pieces of equipment. Political influence and durable strength to sustain a war long as we need are just the add-ons.

 

[Zebra]

It is safe to say F-16 is an old duck which only deserves a farewell. When rest of the meaningful world is retiring F-16 why a major airforce like IAF shall buy it? Is there a sense?

Gripen E! The cake of the matter is what is highlighted in red(previous post). Why go for an aircraft when you are already developing one ourselves which is almost similar? Where is the difference other than waiting for extra two or three years? Also, Swedish Air Force is already looking/planing for an in-future replacement of their Gripen E. They are trying to get aboard KAI's or TAI's stealth air fighter projects. Same with their proposal for the development of AMCA. Interestingly, they want their own MMR, Data-Link and everything else on AMCA. Thereby, effectively killing multiple indigenous projects, at least Uttam for sure. Where is the gain for us?

You know for a country like us and air force like IAF there is no other option than sourcing indigenously. The capital-loss which is there with any purchase of military hardware can only be minimised if we produce ourselves and get our investment back in the form of Jobs it will create and money we will make by exporting these pieces of equipment. Political influence and durable strength to sustain a war long as we need are just the add-ons.

They can keep Gripen E and HAL Tejas separate.

IAF needs more aircrafts in short time anyway.

For MiG-21 replacement, Gripen E suits better.

And this is not the time to think about future projects, when we are already lagging behind.

 

[BON PLAN]

The French along with other countries were enforcing UN ,mandated no fly zone.so the Libyans did not think there was a threat. and the Libyans did track the Rafales without any worry. We already established many times that Libyan Air force and AD was antiquated Everyyone knows that. But importantly, those libyans radars were able to detect Rafale.
Technically based on all the BS your pro Rafale brothers had said, that SPECTRA is Active cancellation
If its active cancellation, how can the Libyan radars detect Rafale? They should not be seeing those planes at all and that means ACTIVE CANCELLATION.
So seems like I said, SPECTRA capabilities are just BS woven by Dassault to somehow sell Rafale which did not have any buyers till 2015

YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SOURCE FOR THAT. as usual.

 

[BON PLAN]

About the MACE exercise
SA-10 Grumble

The S-300P (transliterated from Russian С-300П, NATO reporting name SA-10 Grumble) is the original version of the S-300 system which became operational in 1978.[1] In 1987, over 80 of these sites were active, mainly in the area around Moscow. The P suffix stand for PVO-Strany (country air defence system). An S-300PT unit consists of a 36D6 (NATO reporting name TIN SHIELD) surveillance radar, a 30N6 (FLAP LID) fire control system and 5P85-1 launch vehicles. The 5P85-1 vehicle is a semi-trailer truck. Usually a 76N6 (CLAM SHELL) low altitude detection radar is also a part of the unit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_%28missile%29#cite_note-astronautix-11
Do read 1978 model and what tech was Rafale using? 2010 ???? Haahahaha, like I said,, wonderful, France can achieve "great victory" when using its top weapons against antiquated Soviet Era AD system and then say it with pride.

So, if F-16C failed against it, then its porblem of the American, now the French are going to compare Rafale to F-16C ??? hahahahaha how the mighty are falling

and it' why it is an outdated system than Iran bought it ....

first AMRAAM were deployed in 1991. Is it an outdated system? think well before answering Bro.

 

[BON PLAN]

Stealth will always be there, but this is just start of stealth,
There will be electronic steatth, and perhaps optical stealth,
Stealth has just starte the evolution, do not write it just yet since France does not understand Stealth

NO. It's the beginning of the end.

 

[BON PLAN]

Do you understand the word "estimate"?
Estimate : To calculate approximately (the amount, extent, magnitude, position, or value of something).
the point of anechoic chamber is to measure RCS accurately but to estimate RCS then computer simulation is a completely valid way.Just because you are not smart enough to understand it doesn't mean they cant do it

Bro, I don't need a lesson please. I'm well educated enough.

 

[BON PLAN]

Doesn't matter, it didn't do any SEAD, SEAD was done by F-16 and Tornado and neither got shotdown

Prove it.
Rafale with Hammer AASM has a SEAD capacity.

 

[BON PLAN]

The one that got reduction is F-35B, and it didn't get reduced to 1000 lbs, it get reduced to 1500 lbs, these A, C version can still carry 2000 lbs JDAM, get your information right

OK. thanks. You're,right.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nope, F-35 has better high AoA characteristics than F-16 and it does have better leg than most fighter

AoA with TV ? absolutely useless in combat.

The famous Cobra manoeuver was made for exhibition. Do it in a combat and you will be a nice and quite immobile target in the sky.

 

[BON PLAN]

They dont change the radar, they just turn it on and off after the flight, which is a a normal thing, aircraft radar don't stay on when it land and go to the garage

The breakdown issues are not that. The F35 radar shut off during the flight, without any pilot action....

 

[BON PLAN]

.

 

[smestarz]

You are really born stupid, hahahaha
You yourself said here that Rafale was presenting false targets to Libyan air defence, you know what you posted.
Further the guy who you believe to be expert on other forum (Pic del) he did say that SPECTRA is active cancellation.. So if its active cancellation then Rafale should be invisible on Radar.

So, either he is giving BS or you are giving BS or importantly Both... the balls are in your court,. hit them at your own discretion.... Thats the proof for you.. source,... you

YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SOURCE FOR THAT. as usual.

 

[StealthFlanker]

YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SOURCE FOR THAT. as usual.

And where is your source for Rafale survive air defense while F-16CJ didnt in MACE XIII ?

NO. It's the beginning of the end.

yep that why Russian , China , USA , Canada , Australia , Israel , Norway , UK , Japan , Korean ..etc all want stealth fighters

Bro, I don't need a lesson please. I'm well educated enough.

and you didnt understand that RCS can be estimated by software ?

Rafale with Hammer AASM has a SEAD capacity.

Doesnt matter , F-16 with GBU-31 have SEAD capabilities too , point is in Lybia it was Tornado and F-16 which do the job of hunting and destroying radar and neither of them got shot down either , so the fact that Rafale survive is nothing special.

AoA with TV ? absolutely useless in combat.
The famous Cobra manoeuver was made for exhibition. Do it in a combat and you will be a nice and quite immobile target in the sky.

did i talk about cobra maneuver ? no
when i talk about high AoA i mean snap shot and scissor capabilities

 

[smestarz]

Do you really have an idea how big S-300 family is? I mean its not small as Rafale with 3 versions,.
Now the S-10 Grumble that you are talking is Soviet era Air defence missile.. Mid 70s
What Iran has purchased is a very different and modern version S-300 PMU 1, SA-20 Gargoyle.. Different missiles and different capability.. I can understand your frustration,.. how can the russians copy the way of France... only France can produce different modified version based on Mirage III and call them, Mirage 2000, Mirage 4000 and Rafale... and the world has to accept it..

Your stupidity is comparing SA-10 Grumble an saying its same as SA-20 Gargoyle.,. is Rafale technilogically same as Mirage III ? That is the difference in the missile too.

and it' why it is an outdated system than Iran bought it ....

first AMRAAM were deployed in 1991. Is it an outdated system? think well before answering Bro.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Further the guy who you believe to be expert on other forum (Pic del) he did say that SPECTRA is active cancellation.. So if its active cancellation then Rafale should be invisible on Radar.
u

Omfg did someone really believed that Picard is an expert he is the biggest morons ever, that clown doesnt even understand basic aerodynamic and electronics and just making up number as he go. There was 1 time i visited his blog and interrogated him about some number he put on there , at first he tried to throw around some science sounding words but then he realised i know what iam talking about , it was so funny , never seen someone gone quiet so quick

 

[Rahul Singh]

They can keep Gripen E and HAL Tejas separate.

IAF needs more aircrafts in short time anyway.

For MiG-21 replacement, Gripen E suits better.

And this is not the time to think about future projects, when we are already lagging behind.

Any aircraft you purchase today which is not better than frontline fighters of your prime adversary is a waste of resources. When i say today it means finite time any deal for such a purchase will take to materialize. Look at the time Rafale has taken. What suggests any deal with Sweden won't take more?

IAF needs fighters, true. But why can't it be meet by expediting development and then induction of LCA MK-2? Specially when if we sign a deal for Gripen E today we won't be getting first fighter for at least three years from the date.

My arguments are based on so-called permanent solution. And of course it requires some sacrifices. If IAF waits for LCA MK-2 for just 5 years, its M-MRCA problem can be solved for forever. Another 10 years and its 5th generation aircraft requirement can be solved too. Together they will bring IAF to a stage when we will be issuing any RFI for front-line jet fighters no more. Such a decision takes heart and balls, something our primary adversary China is known for. That's why most fear it and least us.

 

[smestarz]

What ever air defence systems that Czech or other eastern european countries got were Soviet origin.
That explains S-300 SA-10 Grumble .. with Czech. which you are trying to mention. Did the Czechs get it upgraded? No they did not. .. so you are talking of Soviet Era Air Defence system.

Iran has purchased S-300 PMU 1.. which is SA-20 Gargoyle much modified and later system..

AMARAAM were deployed in 1991 but what block was it? A ? Presently AMRAAM is highly evolved system and in D-5 Block phase...

Understand that other countries in the world also upgrade their systems, like French.. Dont be under impression that other countries make a model, they forget abt it,, make another model..

The french were able to pull off the best coup, modifying Mirage III to Rafale using the same template, and trying to sell to many countries who then got wiser and saw through the French BS. hahahaa

You need to think well before answering me Sis...

and it' why it is an outdated system than Iran bought it ....

first AMRAAM were deployed in 1991. Is it an outdated system? think well before answering Bro.

 

[smestarz]

I did not say Picard, but PicDel.. he claims to be have been working in Dassault before... you know how it works on Rafale defence forum .. sorry IDF..

Omfg did someone really believed that Picard is an expert he is the biggest morons ever, that clown doesnt even understand basic aerodynamic and electronics and just making up number as he go. There was 1 time i visited his blog and interrogated him about some number he put on there , at first he tried to throw around some science sounding words but then he realised i know what iam talking about , it was so funny , never seen someone gone quiet so quick