Know Your 'Rafale'

[Alien]

French refuse to Integrate Indian Weapons systems in Rafale jet

While French government have rejected Indian negotiators’ demand for a 50 per cent offset clause, citing sharp cost escalation but were keen on Make in India initiative of Prime minister Modi, What likely could be deal breaker for Indian military planners could be French refusal to integrate Indian developed weapons system in french build Rafale jet .

French negotiation team want separate Research and development agreement which can look into Indian request but have promised it can only be taken up few years down the line after deliveries for ordered 36 jets start.

India wants to integrate its own indigenously developed Astra Beyond visual range missile (BVRAAM) developed by DRDO and later integration of longer Astra II BVR missile which is still under development.

Sources close to idrw.org believe, Integration was not just limited to Astra BVR missiles but there were firm plans also to integrate other weapons systems like Air launched variant of Smaller BrahMos NG, Shorter Nirbhay air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) and precision-guided munition under development in India.

Defense Experts believe that Indian team might have asked for Source code of RBE2-AA Aesa radar system used in Rafale jet, So integration can take place in India with little help from French team instead of India depending on French Company to integrate Indian weapons systems and also avoid large Research and development fund requested by France.

50 per cent offset clause and transfer of technology including Source code transfer of RBE2-AA Aesa radar system was part of the original tender that was floated for 126 fighter jets, but with orders of only 36 aircrafts currently under negotiation, French team don’t see merit in providing Source code of RBE2-AA Aesa radar system .


http://idrw.org/french-refuse-to-integrate-indian-weapons-systems-in-rafale-jet/

 

[Punya Pratap]

Indian Industry Could Lose Out in Revised Rafale Deal
by Neelam Mathews
- August 19, 2015, 8:19 AM


A model of the Rafale in Indian Air Force markings was displayed at the last Aero-India show. (Photo: Neelam Mathews)
Egyptian and Qatar orders for 24 each. “Dassault will get a price escalation and with the reduction in complexity related to working with HAL, there will be a savings of at least 15 percent for them,” said a financial consultant. Moreover, the French company will now be required to help establish only one airbase for the Rafale instead of two, enabling a further reduction in costs.

 

[Punya Pratap]

I dont know whether all the journos have taken leave of their senses or consider their readers plain stupid!!

The 50% clause was to be exercised in the original contract for 126 Rafales and it was clear from day one when PM Modi announced the Govt-to-Govt deal for 36 Rafales that these 36 jets would come in Fly away condition. Which means they will be build by the French and as per the French configuration.... I dont understand why there is so much drama over the 50% offset or integrating 3rd party weapons or sensors !! When you are going to purchase a weapons platform through Govt-to-Govt deal than you lose on the offsets or 3rd party weapons integration simply because keeping the price down is the only concern when you chose this route of dealing! These jets will come in the same configuration as mandated and tested by IAF during the MMRCA evaluation.... IAF is doing the same thing it did with Tejas... wants to change the configuration and make new additions and the French has done what ADA/HAL could never dream of doing that is flatly refused to tweek the Rafale!

By the way the cost will also shoot up coz IAF wants to post Rafale at 2 separate Airbases and that will add to the infrastructure and maintenance depot costs.... I so wished that we got at least 3 squadrons of Rafale with two squads posted at Tezpur/Chabua and one at Sirsa or Ambala. 2 squads of Rafale posted close to NW frontier can strike up till Chengdu while Tibetan AFS of PLAAF will be easy pickings. The 1 squad at Sirsa/or Ambala can take care of the entire infrastructure of PAF easily.

 

[surya kiran]

France, India to conclude Rafale jets deal within 10 days - Reuters
http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/08/21/france-rafale-india-idINKCN0QQ1NO20150821

India's purchase of French Rafale fighter jets could be concluded in about 10 days, a source with knowledge of talks on the deal told Reuters on Friday.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi said in April he had ordered 36 Rafale fighters to modernise his country's warplane fleet, though detailed terms and conditions remained to be settled.

Modi had opted to deal directly with the French government after three years of inconclusive negotiations with the plane's manufacturer, Dassault.

"Things are getting better with India," the source said. "An agreement could be seen in about 10 days."

Dassault Aviation was not immediately available to comment.

India's announcement came after Dassault in February won its first export order for the jets from Egypt. Since then, Qatar has also placed an order, and talks are under way with Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.

But the Indian deal ran into trouble, with both sides wrangling over the unit price of the aircraft and a condition that Dassault should invest a big percentage of the value of the multi-billion dollar contract in India, sources said earlier this month.

India is keen to modernise its ageing airforce, with military officials having warned of a major capability gap opening up with China and Pakistan without new Western warplanes, or if local defence contractors cannot build what the military needs in a timely manner.

(Reporting by Cyril Altmeyer; Writing by Michel Rose; Editing by Ingrid Melander and David Holmes)

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

French refuse to Integrate Indian Weapons systems in Rafale jet

While French government have rejected Indian negotiators’ demand for a 50 per cent offset clause, citing sharp cost escalation but were keen on Make in India initiative of Prime minister Modi, What likely could be deal breaker for Indian military planners could be French refusal to integrate Indian developed weapons system in french build Rafale jet .

French negotiation team want separate Research and development agreement which can look into Indian request but have promised it can only be taken up few years down the line after deliveries for ordered 36 jets start.

India wants to integrate its own indigenously developed Astra Beyond visual range missile (BVRAAM) developed by DRDO and later integration of longer Astra II BVR missile which is still under development.

Sources close to idrw.org believe, Integration was not just limited to Astra BVR missiles but there were firm plans also to integrate other weapons systems like Air launched variant of Smaller BrahMos NG, Shorter Nirbhay air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) and precision-guided munition under development in India.

Defense Experts believe that Indian team might have asked for Source code of RBE2-AA Aesa radar system used in Rafale jet, So integration can take place in India with little help from French team instead of India depending on French Company to integrate Indian weapons systems and also avoid large Research and development fund requested by France.

50 per cent offset clause and transfer of technology including Source code transfer of RBE2-AA Aesa radar system was part of the original tender that was floated for 126 fighter jets, but with orders of only 36 aircrafts currently under negotiation, French team don’t see merit in providing Source code of RBE2-AA Aesa radar system .


http://idrw.org/french-refuse-to-integrate-indian-weapons-systems-in-rafale-jet/

you are worng

the 36 will be bought in flyaway condition - you are right

but

those 36 will be in french configuration - you are worng

the Modi Hollande joint statement specifically said - these 36 will be in configuration finalised by IAF under MMRCA

pl check your facts

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

I dont know whether all the journos have taken leave of their senses or consider their readers plain stupid!!

The 50% clause was to be exercised in the original contract for 126 Rafales and it was clear from day one when PM Modi announced the Govt-to-Govt deal for 36 Rafales that these 36 jets would come in Fly away condition. Which means they will be build by the French and as per the French configuration.... I dont understand why there is so much drama over the 50% offset or integrating 3rd party weapons or sensors !! When you are going to purchase a weapons platform through Govt-to-Govt deal than you lose on the offsets or 3rd party weapons integration simply because keeping the price down is the only concern when you chose this route of dealing! These jets will come in the same configuration as mandated and tested by IAF during the MMRCA evaluation.... IAF is doing the same thing it did with Tejas... wants to change the configuration and make new additions and the French has done what ADA/HAL could never dream of doing that is flatly refused to tweek the Rafale!

By the way the cost will also shoot up coz IAF wants to post Rafale at 2 separate Airbases and that will add to the infrastructure and maintenance depot costs.... I so wished that we got at least 3 squadrons of Rafale with two squads posted at Tezpur/Chabua and one at Sirsa or Ambala. 2 squads of Rafale posted close to NW frontier can strike up till Chengdu while Tibetan AFS of PLAAF will be easy pickings. The 1 squad at Sirsa/or Ambala can take care of the entire infrastructure of PAF easily.

you are worng

the 36 will be bought in flyaway condition - you are right

but

those 36 will be in french configuration - you are worng

the Modi Hollande joint statement specifically said - these 36 will be in configuration finalised by IAF under MMRCA

pl check your facts

 

[indiandefencefan]

France, India to conclude Rafale jets deal within 10 days: Source

PARIS: India's purchase of French Rafale fighter jets could be concluded in about 10 days, a source with knowledge of talks on the deal told Reuters on Friday.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi said in April he had ordered 36 Rafale fighters to modernise his country's warplane fleet, though detailed terms and conditions remained to be settled.

Modi had opted to deal directly with theFrench government after three years of inconclusive negotiations with the plane's manufacturer, Dassault.

"Things are getting better with India," the source said. "An agreement could be seen in about 10 days."

Dassault Aviation was not immediately available to comment.

India's announcement came after Dassault in February won its first export order for the jets from Egypt. Since then, Qatar has also placed an order, and talks are under way with Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.

But the Indian deal ran into trouble, with both sides wrangling over the unit price of the aircraft and a condition that Dassault should invest a big percentage of the value of the multi-billion dollar contract in India, sources said earlier this month.

India is keen to modernise its ageing airforce, with military officials having warned of a major capability gap opening up with China and Pakistan without new Western warplanes, or if local defence contractors cannot build what the military needs in a timely manner.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ithin-10-days-source/articleshow/48589195.cms
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...le-jets-deal-in-10-days/article1-1382796.aspx

 

[Punya Pratap]

you are worng

the 36 will be bought in flyaway condition - you are right

but

those 36 will be in french configuration - you are worng

the Modi Hollande joint statement specifically said - these 36 will be in configuration finalised by IAF under MMRCA

pl check your facts

Dear Paliwal Warrior..... Read my entire statement from sentence to sentence ... When I said French configuration we are talking about the 50% offset as well as third party weapons integration! Since the Rafales are to be purchased in Fly Away condition the entire configuration will be French (no Indian or third party weapons or sensors will be added) which was tested and approved by the IAF during the MMRCA trial runs. I repeat IAF only certified a French made and configured Rafale saying that this is the configuration we want to induct under the MMRCA!

Only when India makes its own fighter jets than can you call them Indian Configured Jets!! Or the other option is the Su 30 MKI'ed!!

The Rafales that were tested and certified by IAF will be delivered WITHOUT any new tweeking or additional weapons if we are to keep the price as negotiated. IF we wish to add new weapons such as Astra the cost will go up and same applies if the 2 squads of Rafales are to be based at TWO different bases!

 

[Punya Pratap]

Rafale deal: French Defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian to visit Delhi next week
Published August 28, 2015 |
SOURCE: PTI

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will visit India next week during which a government- to-government framework agreement for the 36 Rafale fighter jets is likely to be signed, which will pave the way for inking of the final contract.

Defence sources said Drian will arrive here on Tuesday and is scheduled to meet the top leadership.

The visit comes amid a deadlock in the talks for the fighter jets over the issues of off-set, tweaking of weaponry technology among others.

The sources said discussions were held at the “highest level” on both sides to get over the roadblocks.

“One of the parties had to relent. The French have agreed to the Indian conditions,” one of the sources told PTI.

It is expected that if all goes well, the contract for the 36 Rafales will be inked soon, which will come as a huge relief to the Indian Air Force which has been eyeing the aircraft for over a decade.

India’s insistence on 50 per cent off-set clause, tweaking of weaponry technology and plans to set up two bases for Rafale fighter jets were some of the issues which had cropped up during the recent talks that began after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the decision to acquire 36 Rafales jets during his trip to France in April.

The announcement had come as a boost for the modernisation plan of IAF as the original deal for 126 Rafale jets through a tendering process was stuck for years. India has constituted a committee headed by Air Marshal SBP Sinha to hold negotiations with France.

France was offering the Rafale jets at almost the same price its Air Force is buying it from the original manufacturer Dassault Aviation.

 

[brational]

Rafale deal: Defence Acquisition Council happy with progress in negotiations

New Delhi: Signaling that the deadlock in talks over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets has been resolved, the Defence Acquisition Council on Tuesday expressed satisfaction at the progress made and asked the Indian negotiating team to "go ahead" regarding the deal. This means that a government-to-government agreement between India and France is likely to be signed soon to pave the way for the final contract for the fighter jets. The defence ministry's top acquisition council, which met on Tuesday evening under the chairmanship of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, also cleared a Rs 6,966 crore deal for the purchase of 48 Mi17-V5 helicopters from Russia.

Further, approval was given for the purchase of seven additional squadrons of Akash missiles for the air force and eight Chetak helicopters for the navy. However, the DAC did not take a decision on the navy's proposal to acquire over 100 utility helicopters. Neither did it take a decision on going ahead with P75I submarine tenders worth over Rs 60,000 crore.

On the the Rafale fighter jets, defence ministry sources said that "the negotiating committee apprised the DAC about the progress made so far. The DAC asked it to go ahead and proceed". Defence sources said this means that the deadlock has been broken. India's insistence on 50 per cent off-set clause, tweaking of weaponry technology and plans to set up two bases for Rafale fighter jets were some of the issues which had cropped up during the recent talks that began after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the decision to acquire 36 Rafales during his trip to France in April.

Interestingly, French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian was expected to arrive tonight, but his trip has been delayed. Though defence ministry officials were tight-lipped on it, sources said he would be visiting soon.

The DAC cleared a Rs 490 crore proposal for the army to acquire 102 short-span bridges that would be carried on 8X8- wheel trucks besides 120 pieces of anti-tank mine trawls from Russia for the T72 and T90 tanks. The future acquisition of these items would be from Indian companies, defence sources said. DAC also cleared a Rs 6,966 crore proposal to acquire 48 Mi17-V5 choppers from Russia. The hardy, medium-lift choppers have been a huge asset for the air force. The top body for defence acquisitions also cleared IAF's proposal to set up four new ATC radars at Rs 228 crore. Three of these radars would be based in the crucial eastern sector, the sources said.

Further, purchase of an additional seven squadrons of Akash missiles worth Rs 4,790 crore was cleared for air force. The navy's proposal to acquire eight Chetak helicopters from state-run HAL, too, was cleared. The force also got the clearance for nine tugs at Rs 300 crore. Go-ahead was also given to navy for dockyard repair facility for radars and Electronic Warfare System at Rs 235 crore.

 

[blue marlin]

does anyone know when will this deal be signed. it been dragging on for a while now.

also does anyone know the full contract value of the deal which would include the Israel tech too?

i heard that a deal will be done with in about ten days, according to some news papers.

if so does this mean that Dassault will invest 50% of the contract value in to india? or has there been a compromise.

finally does anyone know if the astra bvrm will incorporated on the rafale?

regards

 

[SajeevJino]

does anyone know when will this deal be signed. it been dragging on for a while now.

French DM will come to Delhi this week, and we expect India and France will ink the deal

also does anyone know the full contract value of the deal which would include the Israel tech too?

No one knows the actual value ..if that's $8 billions means that's include 40 years life cycle costs too,

what Israeli technology ..?

i heard that a deal will be done with in about ten days, according to some news papers.

French DM still in Malaysia, once he backs to Delhi we expect the deal,

if so does this mean that Dassault will invest 50% of the contract value in to india? or has there been a compromise.

So far I heard, 50% offset will be succeeded

finally does anyone know if the astra bvrm will incorporated on the rafale?

Broken ..Not happens, India won't give more money so no more modifications

 

[blue marlin]

French DM will come to Delhi this week, and we expect India and France will ink the deal

hopefully a deal will happen you guys need some new wing big time and quickly

No one knows the actual value ..if that's $8 billions means that's include 40 years life cycle costs too,

$8 billion is very high even if you are getting weapons and maintenance and training with it.

what Israeli technology ..?

it not just Israel tech its also implementing of your on tech/missiles
also the implementing of Israel helmet mounted display and also implementing US missiles

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/frances-rafale-fighters-au-courant-in-time-05991/

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...rance-says-no-to-offset-yes-to-make-in-india/

French DM still in Malaysia, once he backs to Delhi we expect the deal,
So far I heard, 50% offset will be succeeded

if so then thats some good negotiating skills

 

[Punya Pratap]

Rafale Fighter Jet Deal Takes Big Step Forward
Published September 3, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: NDTV

The Narendra Modi government appears to be going ahead with the off-the shelf purchase of 36 Rafale fighters, which the Indian Air Force needs urgently. In the clearest indication of the government’s intention so far, the Defence Acquisition Committee has asked the Defence Ministry negotiating team to proceed with end-stage negotiations, sources told NDTV.

Unofficial estimates indicate the deal for 36 jets could cost the exchequer $8 to $9 billion.

The move comes five months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India’s intention to acquire 36 Rafale fighters in an off-the-shelf deal with the government of France — a deal he expected to conclude within a month or two.

Today’s developments are a clear indicator that hurdles which existed towards the acquisition of the Rafale have now likely been removed. These were linked to India’s mandatory offset requirements, under which 50% of the total value of the Rafale deal would need to be ploughed back into Indian industry.


Sources indicate that French negotiators had told the government that the process would substantially delay the acquisition of the fighters.

NDTV has learnt that the French government may now have indicated to the government of India its willingness to set up a third line to manufacture Rafale fighters in future. This, the French argue, will go towards meeting its mandatory offset requirements in the deal in the future.

NDTV has also learnt that the French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian was expected to be in New Delhi today. But he has delayed his visit to this country, pending the progress on the Rafale deal, on the advice of the Government of India.

The Indian Air Force requires the Rafale fighters to fulfill a long pending requirement to step up its squadron strength, which has been depleted over the years by having to retire older generation aircraft.

The IAF also believes that the Rafale gives it a capability to strike ground targets and air targets in complex futuristic battles.

The government’s decision to acquire 36 Rafale came after it scrapped the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft tender to acquire 126 fighters, most of which were to be built in India by Hindustan Aeronautics.

With differences over transfer of technology and overall cost issues continuing for years, the government decided to proceed with a smaller direct purchase from France — something that may now be officially announced very soon barring any eleventh-hour setback

 

[bengalraider]

One Thought!
Just like the Billing for the Russian Tech Transfer used in the Arihant and the Money for the Akula Lease was hidden under the Guise of Vikramaditya payments.There is a possibility that under the Guise of Rafale payments we are getting the tech for the conversion of the Scorpene class into a SSN aka the Brazilian SSN program?

 

[Punya Pratap]

One Thought!
Just like the Billing for the Russian Tech Transfer used in the Arihant and the Money for the Akula Lease was hidden under the Guise of Vikramaditya payments.There is a possibility that under the Guise of Rafale payments we are getting the tech for the conversion of the Scorpene class into a SSN aka the Brazilian SSN program?

Since no Govt brings all these things in the public domain we cannot help but speculate. For Scorpenes I would things that the SSN program will go for something much advanced and hopefully subs that pack more punch. Scorpenes size is a bit of a problem so I d root for the Barracuda

 

[saik]

why are we nice with france? $9b for 36 -> $250M per plane! give me a real break here!

 

[A chauhan]

Rafale talks to take a month more

New Delhi, Sep 27 (PTI) The talks for negotiating the cost of 36 Rafale fighter jets India is buying from France is going on at a "hectic" pace and are likely to be wrapped up in another one month, top defence sources said.

"The talks have been very hectic. There are a lot of fine prints that both sides look into. The talks will most likely take one more month," defence sources told PTI...


...Modi's decision to buy the jets, citing operational requirements of the IAF, had given a boost to the modernisation plans of the air force as the original deal for 126 Rafale jets through a tendering process had got stuck for years.

Full story at => http://www.ptinews.com/news/6546790_Rafale-talks-to-take-a-month-more.html

 

[halloweene]

inside info : rafale production rate already went up to 1.5/ month, should be 2/month in 2016 and 3/month in 2018. No clue

 

[The enlightened]

inside info : rafale production rate already went up to 1.5/ month, should be 2/month in 2016 and 3/month in 2018. No clue

Nice. Keep us posted


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