Know Your 'Rafale'

[Khagesh]

@PaliwalWarrior, Thanks for linking this up.

http://bharatkarnad.com/2015/06/20/is-the-naval-air-force-better-more-nationalistic-than-iaf/

well the def min is trying to close the option of even 36 g2g deal forget about buying more

Is the Naval air force better, more nationalistic than IAF?
Posted on June 20, 2015 by Bharat Karnad
Cobham Aviation Service of UK was contracted to supply the quartz radome for the LCA radar. It is four months overdue, but the penalty clause has not been invoked. Why?

Because the IAF brass has gamed both the sides well. They know the only way LCA Mk-1 can be FOCed is when the Radome and IFR are delivered promptly and per contract. Delays and/or Non-Delivery (due to penalty clause) yield exactly the same result. Hawking for Rafale.

It was reported someplace, I don't remember, that IAF honchos have been visiting Cobham every now and then. I will not be surprised if they get the same treatment their as was given to one of those IN guys by the Russians.

Another piece of evidence: How come the IAF has so much trouble with its MiG-29 fleet (and its Su-30MKI fleet also), when the two squadrons of MiG-29Ks with the Navy have experienced very few problems, considering the maintenance regimes are virtually the same for the IAF’s version and the naval MiG-29K?

I am sure they will find the same story with IAF Mig 29 as was the case of IAF Sukhois. Too much spent already on expensive aircrafts and not enough money left for day to day running.

No wonder the IAF brass used to send in the Mirages for overhauls without having used it for the mandated hours. Stand still airforce.

Meanwhile, IAF has besides the Indian-made trainer aircraft, repeatedly shown its disregard and disrespect for the indigenous HPT-40 trainer project on the anvil by buying a series of trainers — the Swiss Pilatus, the British Hawk, and it is said, has even expressed an interest in yet another advanced trainer, the American Textron Scorpion (with most such buys justified also in terms of their use in counter-insurgency jobs, which of course, they are never called to perform)!!! May be the IAF is an air force perpetually stuck in the trainer mode — a tendency visible since the stewardship of the service by ACM (retd) “Charlie”Browne, now enjoying the Norwegian fjords as our ambassador there, rather than being a serious and meaningful air force our adversaries fear. How else to explain the greater proficiency of naval pilots flying and readying to fight over a more difficult medium — the sea, when the trainee pilots are sourced from the same manpower pool? There must be something the Navy is doing right the IAF isn’t.

See this is how knowledge builds up in the system. This is what I like about this guy. He drops in enough information for the keen eye.

1) Most people actually do not realize that Indian Navy works in Tropical seas where the temperatures can soar like anything. Sapping both engine power and lift. Check out the solution for C-2 greyhounds that Northrop-Grumman was offering and the rationale they provided and the results they promised (Unfortunately for US Navy they were pushed into the V-22 direction again by the Marines et al). Someplace I had read that the deck tempratures can soar to 60 degree celsius at times in the Persian Gulf region. Same obviously for IOR too. These operations the IN has to conduct in less than half the runway and a wobbly one at that, compared to the one available to airforce aviators. Then there is the heavier undercarriage that would force the overall weight to increase.. On top of that the naval aviators have to take off and land in much more demanding circumstances then the more staid IAF pilots. And you would be wrong to imagine that Naval aviators will not be flying in the High medium low altitude mix as the airforce pilots do.

2) Mig 29 K are actually more complex and unique as a product so far as Russian aerospace industry is concerned. Compare that to a more run of the mill Mig29 that IAF operates. Imagine the difficulties in operation and maintenance due to folding wings, heavier overall aircraft, IRST, different radar. And yet the people do not do a cry baby despite much lower budgets. Because they never intended to be a Trainer only force. Now the IAF honchos also wants Textron Scorpion and their honchos want to enjoy the Norwegian fjords.

And, in the light of the Navy’s enthusiastic financial support for the LCA and its taking ownership of the naval version of the Tejas, whether it is also not the more nationalistic service, eager to promote indigenous products and defence industry

In the event, perhaps, the Indian Navy is in line for an expanded mission and role in the extended Indian Ocean region.

Bhagwan bhala karey Indian Navy ka. The destroyers of Karachi Harbour.

 

[Immanuel]

The RM is trying to keep options open. It is just too difficult to forecast going forward on our future needs. Taking a call on whether our planned acquisitions will meet desired timelines (FGFA, LCA Mk2, AMCA) all under development is the challenge. Additionally, our military imports will also reflect how our neighbours on the East (primarily) and West start scaling up their military abilities.

Hence, ruling out more Rafales will not be prudent. Presently we are OK with 36 and if all else falls in place we will not need more of these.

We have also not finalised the Air component of INS Vishal, so why shut the door on Rafale?

What is certain is that the MMRCA deal as envisaged is dead.

It would be silly actually to get the Rafale for the INS Vishal which realistically won't be ready for sea trials before 2025, the F-35 or Naval PAKFA/AMCA are only viable options for it complemented with LCA mk-2 Navy.

 

[Armand2REP]

How is it not 5th generation? Where are you getting this from when there is not even a single prototype of FGFA? You need to tone down your jingoism. Does Rafale as a whole have the shaping to deflect away radars? Which PAK-FA (which is not our plane) clearly does? There may be problems now but they won't remain forever. We are finally buying Rafale after all the hoo laa loo aren't we?

The RCS is 0.5m^2, Rafale in clean config is 0.3^m2 and with conformal fuel tanks and SCALP/Meteor load out is equal to FGFA carrying internal. The subsystems of Rafale are light years beyond what the Russians have and it really is about the systems and weapons that make a combat system state of the art. The Russians have been testing AESA for ages, the Zhuk AE failed to identify targets at any real range while RBE2 is a production AESA that has an order book longer than my arm. The Sagem seekers are so good they will be the new guidance system of Land Attack Brahmos. Meteor is kicking goals every time. The seeker lock of IR Mica is so good it can squash an F-22 with off angle ease and the plane is so maneuverable it can lock guns on a Raptor, if the pilot doesn't pass out first. Rafale has the most combat hours of any fighter type since the campaign in Libya to this day. It is battle tested and ready for IAF... a deal with Russia is just a bunch of poof.

 

[Pulkit]

Your DM has been told to keep his mouth shut before he gets replaced. The option for more MKI was always an option but was rejected by IAF as not exceeding the capabilities of Chinese fighters. Hate to break it to you but FGFA is not 5th generation, it is the same as Rafale and not even half way through its development cycle. To top it off GOI is rather pissed it got cut from 25% to 12% workshare without even being consulted. Not only will the order for 36 go through, it looks likely to reach 100+.

I NEVER LIKED THE RAFALE DEAL AND ITS STILL A BIG "NO".....

Rafale is an elephant which might have its own benefits but is not what the Nation needs.
We have a requirement of 300+aircrafts and the freaking high cost of Rafale is not at all a feasible option , not even close to 100.

FGFA has a number of improvements over T-50 (the Russian version) so I hate to inform you that you are getting confused here while stating it will not be 5th gen when u have yourself said its in developing state.

We need a local A/C even if the participation is low at least we are growing in terms of knowledge.

Su MKI has some issues related to engine and availability which has been tackled now efficiently after the arrival of our one of the best if I may say Defense minister in decades.

He has himself or who so ever has asked him not to talk to press but what ever he was saying was what we Indians want to hear from our DM.

Earlier silence was the weapon our DMs(in the past ) had which obviously frustrated us.

No one in India is afraid of war with PAK and our current DM just said it out loud.

The only thing now has happened is that top most leaders will restrict themselves but the counterparts which keep and maintain the same tone and momentum.

Just remember in our nation Press is free and they do get carried away some times so its better na.


Regarding your claims about Rafale Can you get the results of Rafale Public which happened in India which the company asked not to be made Public.
Why is your Airforce not going ahead with further orders?

 

[sathya]

36 Pieces @ 6-7 billions
If we buy next tranche 36 @ best 5 billions

That's 72 for 10-12 billions in outright purchase, without tot.

I don't think pak fa will be cheaper too..
But We get source codes.. we get more flexibility..

Our defense minister is the best one, we got so far,
He has been forced with defense ministry, because of his credentials . He never asked for it. He will stay.

 

[The enlightened]

The RCS is 0.5m^2, Rafale in clean config is 0.3^m2 and with conformal fuel tanks and SCALP/Meteor load out is equal to FGFA carrying internal.

Wow, you must have a lot of friends in Sukhoi and Dassault ....................................................................................................................................... or maybe you just pulled it from ur-anus.

 

[Armand2REP]

Wow, you must have a lot of friends in Sukhoi and Dassault ....................................................................................................................................... or maybe you just pulled it from ur-anus.

Or the anus of Ajay Shukla...........

 

[Punya Pratap]

BAE Systems slashes cost of Typhoon fighter jets

Press Trust of India | London
July 22, 2015 Last Updated at 20:42 IST

British defence giant BAE Systems has cut down the cost of producing a Typhoon fighter jet by 20 per cent over the past five years and slowed its production rate as part of its efforts to woo potential buyers, including India.

The firm, which was a contender to supply 126 multi-role fighters to India, is seeking to win export customers as it closes in on providing the 160 jets ordered by UK's Ministry of Defence, according to a report in The Telegraph.

So far the Royal Air Force (RAF) has taken delivery of 129 of the twin-engine planes which, according to government data, cost 87 million pounds each.

Typhoon has struggled to win export orders in the past.

India is almost certain to buy French company Dassault's Rafale fighter, but BAE and its partners are campaigning to win new customers in the Gulf including Kuwait and for Saudi Arabia.

BAE and its German, Italian and Spanish partners in the fighter are "aggressively campaigning to win more customers."

Other countries targeted include Malaysia, while Belgium, Denmark and Finland have all made inquiries about the jet.

In a briefing at the Royal International Air Tattoo, in Fairford, Glos, the company, RAF and ministers said that the jet was being upgraded from a "multi-role" to a "swing role" jet, with greater capabilities that make it more attractive to potential buyers.

A swing role jet is able to switch while in flight from being a strike aircraft attacking targets on the ground with bombs and missiles to a fighter capable of taking on other jets.

The Typhoon was in competition to secure an order from the Indian Air Force seeking to upgrade its outdated Russian MiGs with modern Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

However, during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France in April, India agreed to buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away conditions.

And yesterday, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the Rafale combat planes and associated systems and weapons would be delivered in the same configuration as had been tested and approved by the Indian Air Force.

He also said the fighter jets would be delivered with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Well just to add to the excitement I would say why not consider Typhoon especially when there's a 20% sale going on (We Indian love a SALE)

As it is Typoon also cleared for the final and now that it's been proved that L1 - Rafale was a joke (I wonder why India is'nt taking Dassault to task for withholding the entire costing structure)

Simply put a Rafale with its price tag will do what PAF/PLAAF wish to do....bankrupt the nation!! Victory without firing a shot!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

Your DM has been told to keep his mouth shut before he gets replaced. The option for more MKI was always an option but was rejected by IAF as not exceeding the capabilities of Chinese fighters. Hate to break it to you but FGFA is not 5th generation, it is the same as Rafale and not even half way through its development cycle. To top it off GOI is rather pissed it got cut from 25% to 12% workshare without even being consulted. Not only will the order for 36 go through, it looks likely to reach 100+.

Dear Armand2REP.... First of all I would love to see your source which says that "YOUR DM HAS BEEN TOLD TO KEEP HIS MOUTH SHUT BEFORE HE GETS REPLACED"
IF you have a source than please share and if not then please understand Indian politics confounds all weatern logic. Our DM not only enjoys the faith of the majority of the people (We see him travelling economy and without the over burdening and tiresome security grid) he also happens to be in the good books of the PM of India and to top it all off.. he is a favorite of the RSS (the parent body of BJP)

Second of all, I would love to see your source regarding the sweeping statements you have made regarding the RCS of the Rafale (Clean & full load) before comparing it with FGFA. As some posters have already pointed out that you cannot compare FGFA stats with Rafale as they simply are not available. FGFA as such is at a conceptional stage and it will be better than the Sukhoi T-50 same way the Su-27 evolved into Su-30 and IAF had it MKI'ed it to make it the BEST Flanker ever!!

 

[Yumdoot]

heh heh.

That was nearly a month old comment. I too had, at first wanted to inform him better. Then I thought, may let the Frenchie feel important. Surely others must have read that too. You broke that month long chain of silence.

But yes Parrikar was quite comfortable in Goa. He was nearly forced to come serve in the Defence Ministry by the new set up. That is how the level of trust Parrikar carries.

 

[lookieloo]

Wow... this forum is totally dead. First post on this thread in two weeks and not a peep on MRCA being canned two days ago.

 

[Zebra]

Wow... this forum is totally dead. First post on this thread in two weeks and not a peep on MRCA being canned two days ago.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/alternatives-to-dassault-rafale.63921/

 

[lookieloo]

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/alternatives-to-dassault-rafale.63921/

Umm... last post on that thread was over a month ago, so thanks for reinforcing my original statement. Forum is INDEED dead.

 

[Zebra]

Umm... last post on that thread was over a month ago, so thanks for reinforcing my original statement. Forum is INDEED dead.

Sir, you failed again, if I am not wrong.
Actually it is Indian MoD and/or ministry of finance, who is dead (by not talking decision in time).

 

[Yumdoot]

"When I don't make a decision, it's not that I don't think about it. I think about it and make a decision not to make a decision." - http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/P._V._Narasimha_Rao#Narasimha_Rao_quotes

 

[Punya Pratap]

India's MMRCA Is Officially Dead. Now What?
The Indian government is going the domestic route to fulfill its MMRCA requirement. Will this work?

By Ankit Panda
August 05, 2015
As my colleague Franz-Stefan Gady reported earlier, India’s request-for-proposal (RFP) for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft has been, as was expected, formally withdrawn. Following Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s announcement in Paris earlier this year that New Delhi would opt to purchase 36 Dassault Rafale fighters off-the-shelf, it was only a matter of time before we received confirmation from the Indian Defense Ministry of the MMRCA’s demise. The government-to-government deal left little hope that long-standing disastrous negotiation process between France’s Dassault Aviation and the Indian defense ministry would go on. As I commented at the time, the “mother of all defense deals,” as India’s MMRCA tender was known, was effectively dead.

What’s interesting at this juncture is what New Delhi plans to do to meet the Indian Air Force’s outstanding requirement for another 90 medium multi-role fighters. The Times of India reports that, in line with the Modi government’s “Make in India” initiative, the Indian government will revive a new RFP for 90 medium multi-role combat aircraft, effectively reanimating the procurement process but with Indian manufacturers in line.

This development is, again, not unsurprising for anyone that’s kept their eye on the MMRCA process with Dassault. One of the sticking points between the Indian government and the French firm was Dassault’s hesitation to let India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) manufacture 108 of the 126 aircraft. Successive Indian governments, including the previous Congress-led government, saw an indigenous manufacturing component as crucial to any final MMRCA deal with Dassault. Modernizing and expanding India’s indigenous defense manufacturing base has long been an objective for Indian strategic planners. However, as critics noted after Modi’s announcement in Paris, the decision to go off-the-shelf rewarded Dassault’s intransigence on the indigenous manufacturing issue, awarding the firm a hefty contract with little benefit to India’s domestic manufacturing base.

The decision to opt for a 90-jet domestic MMRCA RFP is, in theory, a wise move by the Indian government. The 36-jet purchase from Dassault will help plug the IAF’s ongoing fighter shortfall, and the 90-jet RFP will lead to the kind of boon for the domestic Indian defense industry that the original MMRCA tender was supposed to produce—it’s a win-win. However, as with most Indian defense procurement projects, the catch is the implementation and the avoidance of delays.

The original MMRCA process, from its inception to its implosions this year, holds the distinction of being perhaps the most spectacular defense procurement train-wreck in recent history. In theory, going the domestic route should ease things over, but the Indian government needs to plot out a swift road map and stick to it. The Indian Air Force already faces critical capability shortages and will fall far short of its ideal operational scenario of a 750-fighter fleet (the current shortfall is clear—the IAF stands at its lowest fighter strength in over a decade). It’s unlikely that any approach will get the IAF the fighters it needs in the time-frame it needs them (years ago, preferably), but the onus is on the Modi government now to show that the reanimated corpse of the MMRCA will soon fulfill the gaps in Indian military aviation.

 

[Punya Pratap]

What the above article shows is that the GoI realises the importance of IAF's fighter requirement of MMRCA category (sigh) But if you read between the lines and what I think about it, than the following motives are evident in scrapping the MMRCA as it was and re-issuing of the 90 MMRCA jet requirement:

1) The Govt is very smartly trying to bring Dassault to play ball on it's terms (financial as well as implementation) as reissuing the tender with MAKE IN INDIA its going to tell Dassault that we have options other than Rafale (even though it might be best suited) So better negotiating power for the Govt.
2) The most important one will be that I assume this deal will go to a JV of the winning bidder teaming with an Indian partner in a 51-49% JV. In this context the Anil Ambani's recent undertaking of creating Dhirubhai Ambani Aeronautical Park (Much like what France has close to Toullouse) is a pointer of people cashing in at the opportune moment!
3) If the second assumption of mine is true than HAL is in for a major shake up and rightly so!!
4) I think the Govt is really going to negotiate the prices and the ToT to the maximum having scorched itself on the previous MMRCA deal where evidently the L1 bidder was not the lowest bid !! Govt would hopefully also have got some smarts now regarding how to negotiate the prices and the deal after the experience gained from the scrapped MMRCA deal!

 

[cannonfodder]

http://idrw.org/french-refuse-to-integrate-indian-weapons-systems-in-rafale-jet/

Integrating brahmos, Astra looks difficult or will take time with Rafael. Look like an major hurdle.

 

[jaci_zenfone2]

http://idrw.org/french-refuse-to-integrate-indian-weapons-systems-in-rafale-jet/

Integrating brahmos, Astra looks difficult or will take time with Rafael. Look like an major hurdle.

It will take time but its not impossible.They Can Do it If India Agrees to pay them for that.And thats the problem.

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