Know Your 'Rafale'

[halloweene]

Radius of Action:300 km

My source confirms that 300 km range is possible only if the load carried is 5300 kg max load, causing fuel load to drop to roughly 60% of full internal fuel load. Means the plane has no external fuel tanks and 60% internal fuel.

The plane has 500 km radius of action with 3500kg load and internal fuel only. With external fuel and lower weapons weight, for example centerline fuel tank, 4 500kg bombs, and 2 WVR a-to-a missiles, the radius of action is more that 800km.

LCA Tejas is better strike platform compared to Jaguar due to a range of factors.

Ty, i'll correct that in the article.

 

[halloweene]

Low level flying has become very dangerous due to heavy number of portable SAMs and low level planes are also very susceptible to ground fire.

Jag has under-powered engines (talk about IAF rant about LCA engines) which makes it unsuitable for mountainous terrain where most of the action in war is going to be.

Why Jags did not do the heavy bombing in Kargil??

Quick reactions SAMs in PAF's inventory are no help for Jags.

LCA Tejas is the best replacement for Jaguar, no doubt about it.

Ever used a SAM? Try to target a 100 feet plane running at 450 Kts...

 

[sgarg]

Ever used a SAM? Try to target a 100 feet plane running at 450 Kts...

On flat ground, you are correct. In mountains, you are wrong. A plane has to clear mountains which gives enough reaction time for SAM.

If low level flying was such a good idea, then why FAF junk its Jags??

 

[rohit b3]

Many people on here, including myself are totally against spending 20 Bil$, on a 4.5th gen Foreign Aircraft, that too, in the era of 5th gen fighters. There are several alternative soluations suggested, and I though I come up with mine too.(Though that wont change anything,lol)

If MMRCA is actually signed in 2015, the first 16 Aircrafts wont be delievered before 2018, followed by 8 each in 2019 and 2020. Thus by 2020, IAF would have 32 Rafales.

On the other hand, Tejas production goes something like this approximately - 2 in 2014, 8 in 2015, 8 in 2016, 14 in 2017 , 14 in 2018, Approximately completing the order of 46 Tejas(40 IAF+6 IN) by 2018.
Though HAL has claimed that it would pump up the production to 16 a year, being on the conservative side, im choosing to take 14 instead.
Now Tejas mk2 does not enter service before 2021-22.
I would suggest Order 20 more Tejas mk1s...14 in 2019 , 6 in 2020. For 600 mil$. i.e 30mil$ per aircraft.

Correct me if Im wrong, but the last 40 "Super Sukhois" are to be directly delivered by Russia. IAF already has about 200 MKIs, so HAL is to manufacture about 30 more, which would be completed by 2016. Order 30 more MKIs which will be delievered during 2017-2018, for 2.4Bil$...i.e 80Mil$ each.

This way the IAF is inducting 50 Aircrafs by 2020 for just 3 Bil$, making full use of its existing manufacturing facilities.

Now the challenging part is with the Tejas mk2. Out of a requirement of 126 Aircrafts, 50 was made up by the MKI and Tejas. 76 to go which HAS TO BE fullfilled by the Tejas mk2. I.e Order 76 Extra Tejas mk2. That means 199 tejas mk2 (83 initial IAF order + 40 IN + 76 Extra) This really has to be made up in good time, by involving Private players and more manufacturing facilities. The 199 Tejas mk2 can be delivered in 10 Years, with 20/Year production.
Innovative planning can pump up the production to 30 a year, which is the challenging part.

The Extra 76 Tejas mk2 will cost 3.8Bil$ @ 50mil$ per aircraft.


In conclusion, right now choosing to order 20 more Tejas mk1 and 30 more MKIs is the immidiate smart thing to do. That would make sure IAF gets 50 in very quick time.(as it keeps complainian about its depleting fleet)

Also by this combination, the 126 Aircrafts will cost 6.8 Bil$, as against MMRCA's 15-20Bil$.
Also it would boost the indigenous aviation industries and make way for exports, and could also make way for a Stealth 5th Gen Tejas mk3 along with the HAL AMCA.

 

[sgarg]

@rohit b3, IAF can afford only two multi role aircrafts - one in heavy category and another in light category.
If IAF acquires some more Mig-29SMT to increase Mig-29 squandrons to 6 as an interim measure, that would make far more sense compared to buying Rafale.

I agree that IAF needs to receive first 20 LCA Tejas, before any definitive word can be said about production of Tejas.
HAL still has bottlenecks in Tejas production, as it has done a poor job in setting up the production line. The delays in SP delivery seems to be on account of HAL.

 

[Compersion]

If strategic relationship with France was the main logic, then India should have gone for a govt-to-govt deal rather than a tender. This is what I have been saying that this tender has been a joke. Years have gone by trialling and negotiating, yet there is no tangible outcome.

If India wants to be a client state forever, then it should behave like a client state.

Whatever India decides as the final outcome, it will be unfair to other parties as all the variables should have been known to all parties from the outset. Other parties may or may not protest. But the deal can still blow up as foreigners have a lot of leverage with affairs in India, as the ongoing Swiss bank saga proves. We have no idea who has which information about this deal.

For example we were able to test and gather information about fighter jets and its undercurrents and also the examination and further experimentation of relationships and dimensions we did not have before the tender and would not have been possible with government to government. The tender in a way is saying we do not want to be a client state.

question: was all information that was disclosed inside the tender open to the public in such a comparative and detailed manner. why would that be useful.

 

[Compersion]

Sir, which "other choices"?

the information and actions available at each decision point and the payoffs for each of the other choices (outcome)

 

[sgarg]

For example we were able to test and gather information about fighter jets and its undercurrents and also the examination and further experimentation of relationships and dimensions we did not have before the tender and would not have been possible with government to government. The tender in a way is saying we do not want to be a client state.

question: was all information that was disclosed inside the tender open to the public in such a comparative and detailed manner. why would that be useful.

I fail to get what you are trying to say.
I said if strategic relationship with France was so important, India should have bought Rafale directly. Why this song and dance??

A direct deal would have cost less both in terms of price and time.
The three year negotiation proves that tender did not account for a lot of things. Things were added later. This is why I said that all parameters should have been there in the tender.

 

[gaurav96]

When will we sign the deal.. so much delay already.. Frustrating

 

[rohit b3]

Mig29s are actually ending its service life. Yes i agree an upgraded Mig29SMT/UPG is somewhat more capable than the Tejas mk1, but we would agree than Mig29 doesn have any future. Tejas on the other hand is a comparitively newer aircraft which has heay upgrades in store. AESA Radar, Onboard Oxygen generator,etc. Such upgrades will get the Tejas mk1 closer in capabilities to the Mk2 in future.
Tejas also as a modern aircraft has lesser maintainance issues and incorporates some key technologies like Composites, Lower Rcs etc. A single Tejas aircraft has seen to be completing 3 Sorties a day.

 

[rohit b3]

@rohit b3, IAF can afford only two multi role aircrafts - one in heavy category and another in light category.
If IAF acquires some more Mig-29SMT to increase Mig-29 squandrons to 6 as an interim measure, that would make far more sense compared to buying Rafale.

I agree that IAF needs to receive first 20 LCA Tejas, before any definitive word can be said about production of Tejas.
HAL still has bottlenecks in Tejas production, as it has done a poor job in setting up the production line. The delays in SP delivery seems to be on account of HAL.

Mig29s are actually ending its service life. Yes i agree an upgraded Mig29SMT/UPG is somewhat more capable than the Tejas mk1, but we would agree than Mig29 doesn have any future. Tejas on the other hand is a comparitively newer aircraft which has heay upgrades in store. AESA Radar, Onboard Oxygen generator,etc. Such upgrades will get the Tejas mk1 closer in capabilities to the Mk2 in future.
Tejas also as a modern aircraft has lesser maintainance issues and incorporates some key technologies like Composites, Lower Rcs etc. A single Tejas aircraft has seen to be completing 3 Sorties a day.

And some bottlenecks exist i agree. But its just needs some last moment fine tunings. Most of the work has been done.

 

[sgarg]

@rohit b3, Mig-29SMT is same aircraft that Navy imported as Mig-29K. New Mig-29SMT is good enough filler for IAF to raise extra 3-4 squadrons. Mig-29 overhaul facility is being set up at Nashik. It's engine and build technology is compatible with HAL facilities in Nashik so the aircraft does not need massive new investments.

 

[Zebra]

the information and actions available at each decision point and the payoffs for each of the other choices (outcome)

It should be other way around. Something like.....payoffs for not choosing other choices.

 

[sgarg]

@Casper, we do not know and we should not allude any wrongdoing. However there are good reasons to believe that Rafale was a "political" choice.

The problem here is why previous government made a "political choice" after a big song and dance of a tender??

The USA and Germany who stand to lose in this tender are also the countries most vocal about Swiss bank accounts.

This tender is very risky for BJP as BJP has no background information about how this deal progressed. The MMRCA project may have started during previous BJP rule, but that was a long time ago.

Most MOD tenders have failed due to allegations of wrongdoing. Maybe some overseas players do not want MOD acquisitions to succeed.

IAF and Army must take into account all factors and devise strategies which ensure stability of procurement.

 

[Zebra]

^^
Elaborate this part....... some overseas players

 

[sgarg]

^^
Elaborate this part....... some overseas players

You can do your own research. You can see the record of the last 10+ years. An acquisition from foreign sources through tender introduces too many variables into the equation.

Only govt to govt deals have resulted in successful purchases.

Although many people think Rafale is a done deal, I think it is far from reality. The draft of 15000 pages is "almost" prepared. The word "almost" is a funny word. The 'almost' to 'full' can take years.

The word 'almost' means there are still disagreements. And these disagreements are not only technical but also on price.

 

[Zebra]

^^

some overseas players do not want MOD acquisitions to succeed.

Trust me, I tried but I can't find any.

Now show us few of them here on DFI with news reports and links. Please.

It will be news.

 

[sgarg]

@Casper, Maybe you will find this link interesting: Corruption in India's Defence Deals: A Case Study on Business and Government Ethics | Chakraborty | TIJ's Research Journal of Social Science & Management - RJSSM
Which tendered acquisition has succeeded? We are seeing re-tendering of each item. You tell me if you have seen any.

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

If China can make two 5th gen fighters within 5-7 years of time period then why cannot india make an advance 4.5gen fighter (tejas mk 2).india need to focus on developing its aerospace industries much quickly in order to match China and to maintain a power balance in Asia. For that india need atleast 500 LCA mk 2 or even more in next 10 years .it can only be materialised if iaf will cancel the Rafale deal and transfer fund to LCA mk 2 and amca project.

 

[SajeevJino]

.

Somebody Please Gimme a Link that LCA in slow motion because of Lack of Funds