Know Your 'Rafale'

sgarg

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@SajeevJino, What is your point? You are no expert in aviation technology by any means.

LCA Tejas is not only an R&D project but creating an entire industry segment. We estimate that just a fighter engine production needs investment of couple of billion dollars.

The industrial investment needed for proper local manufacturing of LCA Tejas project (including its weapons and sensors) will run close to 10 billion US dollars.

You can calculate yourself how much of that is spent by GOI.
 
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SajeevJino

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I don't want your Assumption about Cost being invested in LCA project . I don't want to hear about GTRE financial issue or anything LCA powered by GE engines now . 45% of LCA Hardware are Imported

I just want to Know when LCA faced Financial issue ..? If you have Links or Sources Please Post it Here
 

sgarg

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@SajeevJino, there is a lot of material on the Internet which you can find rather easily. There is no point providing links for a fairly obvious point.

LCA project has braved a lot of problems including technology denial for several years, and lack of suitable lab facilities and industrial facilities in the country for fabrication of parts.

The LCA that you see today is a result of far improved infrastructure in labs as well as in factories. So this project has already created a small ecosystem for production of fighters. However this ecosystem is very fragile and needs a lot of State support to become a strong tree.
 
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Zebra

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I don't want your Assumption about Cost being invested in LCA project . I don't want to hear about GTRE financial issue or anything LCA powered by GE engines now . 45% of LCA Hardware are Imported

I just want to Know when LCA faced Financial issue ..? If you have Links or Sources Please Post it Here
Lack of industrial base in India is the main reason for 45% of imported hardware.

As soon as demand will increase, they can make them in India too.

And prove it that as of today they import 45%.

Thought process for Tejas started in 1983 and the funding started from 2nd half of 1992. That is part of history now.
 

ersakthivel

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I don't want your Assumption about Cost being invested in LCA project . I don't want to hear about GTRE financial issue or anything LCA powered by GE engines now . 45% of LCA Hardware are Imported

I just want to Know when LCA faced Financial issue ..? If you have Links or Sources Please Post it Here
So when name LCA was written in 1983 on sarkari files and 500 crores were spent on setting up preliminary test facilities and paying fat foreign consultant fees when the project definition finished in 1989 the project was left as an orphan in 1989.ADA asked for 4000 crores and a faster limited series production model(like PAKFA and J-20 development with 7 to 8 prototypes joining test flight regime within three years.) with a dedicated production line. As usual our Imported Air Force was dead set against it!!!!

Eventhough IAF did not contribute a single rupee to LCA development it was their stringent opposition (repeated letters by Air marshal Krishna samy to Defence Minister) ,which resulted in LCA program reduced to two TDs first to demo all the tech,

To be built like cobbler's method of scavenging space and time from older obsolete jag production line with no dedicated vendor support other than HAL(which regarded the program as waste of time, because they knew well in advance that swiss bank bribe regimes at the center will run this show as hobby hour and import another foreign fighter as per our Imported Airforce wish.)

because of IAf's opposition saying that this fighter is too cutting edge and can not be produced here(now they are saying it is too obsolete while praising their Mig-21s !!!) F0ur years were lost in this see saw struggle and in 1993 after dogged intervention by Abdul kalam the program was started as a crippled child with two TDs first to demonstrate all the tech and PVs later LSPs still later mode.

It was this crucial four year delay which took its toll on LCA when sakthi nuclear test intervened .If at IAF was supportive from first day and set aside some money at least the crucial fly by wire tech could have been finished before nuclear tests. but as fate would have it the fly by wire tech JV with US was hit midway because of pokhran nuclear tests and ADA had to start again from scratch for the fly by wire effort which delayed the program by two years.

With HAL not giving priority to program(IAF was not funding it and HAL was getting zero contribution to its top line from tejas effort.) these 4 plus three seven year delay was critical in throwing the time lines of tejas. Then in 2004 IAF asked for newer heavier and higher launching stress inducing air to air missiles launching capabilities in LCA which led to another Full Scale Engineering Development FSED- phase two in 2004 which added few more years in development time.

It was only in 2006 IAF realized that ADA could build a 4.5th gen fighter plane and got on board tejas effort and asked for 250 design changes in the form of requess for action , of which all but 12 are done. these 12 are slated for tejas mk2.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/43717-ada-lca-tejas-iv-202.html
In the line above all these are explained.

All of these is explained in much more detail in ADA tejas thread here from page number -200, so just look at it.

And that 45 percent import costs 45 percent of 26 million that is around 10 million per each plane. compare that to rafale where at least 100 million worth of import is needed for each plane if you consider total lifecycle costs and MLUs.
Also including engines and ASEA radar mpre than 90 percent of tejas mk1 and mk2 parts will be developed here in india as K-10 effort ans UTTAM ASEA effort gathers stream. So in the ling run Tejas is an export earner while rafale is multi billion dollar forex drainer.
 
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SajeevJino

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Where did you get this info, plse?
MoD sources say 90% of the draft MMRCA contract is ready, with ToT, offsets and other issues all settled, and even the inter-governmental agreement with France has been finalized.

But the sticking point is Dassault's reluctance to accept responsibility for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production are concerned.
The same saga is also in the Scorpions . DCNS says we are not Responsible for Last 2 Subs which hosts DRDO AIP ...


Amid sniping by rivals, France aims to close Rafale deal by early 2015 - The Economic Times
 

SajeevJino

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According to a top official of the Ministry of Defence (MoD) privy to the development, over two years of negotiations between French firm Dassault and the Ministry is almost complete and a decision is likely to be taken soon, for which a voluminous draft agreement of over 15,000 pages between the Dassault and IAF has already been prepared.
"The contract negotiations committee has almost completed its task and would submit its report very soon. And we expect a final decision on the deal by the end of next month," said a top official from the Ministry.
Rafale Jet Deal with France Next on Modi Government's Radar - The New Indian Express
 

SajeevJino

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It's show time

PARIS - Dassault Aviation, the French maker of fighter jets, expects to conclude a deal to supply Rafale planes to India by March, Chief Executive Eric Trappier said on Wednesday.
The final phase of exclusive negotiations on the contract, estimated at $15 billion, should conclude within India's current budget year ending in March 2015, Trappier told reporters in Paris.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/dassault-expects-india-rafale-deal-173746886.html


some Peoples who Bluffing the Value to 20 billions and 30 Billions too .. Middle finger to Them
 

sgarg

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It's show time



https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/dassault-expects-india-rafale-deal-173746886.html


some Peoples who Bluffing the Value to 20 billions and 30 Billions too .. Middle finger to Them
These are news reports. The multiplicity of conflicting reports is a testimony to the fact that financial part of the contract is yet to be finalized. You have no experience with contracts so you do not understand and you simply jump to conclusions.

The French themselves are not sure and delay is being injected from French side to confuse Indian side.

The problem is IAF. IAF is behaving like a child who cries and jumps up and down seeing his favorite candy. The government is in a fix.

For some people in GOI, the opinion is that MMRCA may not happen at all despite all the claims to the contrary.
 

SajeevJino

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These are news reports. The multiplicity of conflicting reports is a testimony to the fact that financial part of the contract is yet to be finalized. You have no experience with contracts so you do not understand and you simply jump to conclusions.

The French themselves are not sure and delay is being injected from French side to confuse Indian side.

The problem is IAF. IAF is behaving like a child who cries and jumps up and down seeing his favorite candy. The government is in a fix.

For some people in GOI, the opinion is that MMRCA may not happen at all despite all the claims to the contrary.


Dassault Aviation, the French maker of fighter jets, expects to conclude a deal to supply Rafale planes to India by March, Chief Executive Eric Trappier said on Wednesday
Eric is not a Journalist
 
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In case Rafale deal is finalised,
Will India have full rights to upgrade it at home? Because by the time it comes to MLUs, India will have infrastructure for fifth generation tech in place.
Or will it be like buy inkjet printer for 2000 rupees only, and then buy ink cartridge for 1000 rupee every few days?
 

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