Know Your 'Rafale'

Punya Pratap

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The fundamental fact world wide and over any weapon system development is that the said weapon system attains maturity over the production period and not during the development period. By not supporting Mk 1 IAF is trying its best to kill Tejas where as the best aircrafts be it the F16's , Rafales, Su 30 MKI's all attained maturity over their production period and not during designing phase!

This is reflected by every fighter's life span when you see them roll out in Batches, Tranches or Phases... Heck even God adopts the same procedure and that is how we Homo Sapiens have evolved from primates!!

I suppose even God's tried and tested formula of attaining maturity over production period does not apply or find favour with IAF forget about convincing them regarding the Blocks/Phases/Tranches argument to support Tejas.....that is why I say its useless to talk sense to IAF and Rafale Fanboys who would rather have India on the buyers roaster of Western Arms manufacturers forever when they trash Tejas !! IAF always gloats over fancy brochures of foreign fighters when laying down what it wants from HAL/DRDO but forget that there was a long development phase behind every major weapons producer and it is evident with China and WAS the same story with French / US /Russia!

Having said that I have nothing what so ever regarding Rafales' capabilities except the fact that French weapons are massively over priced .... Mirage upgrade for 49 fighters is Us $ 2.2 Billion whereas INS Vikramaditya costed us US$ 2.3 Billion!! I have major issues when we spend our hard earned and limited dollar reserves to import weapons and then kill domestic arms saying we have no money left which will be the case if we buy Rafale and Mk2 comes up for induction. The standard procedure applied by IAF will be the same .... find faults with Mk 2... heck they are finding faults with FGFA to save Rafale!!

Second thing is that no country, who ever they might be will ever hand over the critical techs and ToT is all a eyewash .... MKI's are 70% indigenous at best and we have no control over critical techs like Radars or the Engine. The same saga will continue with Rafale and we will pay through our nose and if we are thinking we will get know how to make radars /engines than we are living in lala land!!
 

Mad Indian

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These are words of IAF serving officials only ..
One or two officials against a professional organisation which evaluated the aircrafts professionally, I would take the words of the professional organisation anyday.

Also, airforce is also part of our military force like our army and I dont think it is fair of you to undermine their position when you wont do something like that wrt to our army. Just a thought. The more the people here are talking nonsense against IAF's decisions , the more it seems to me that it is mocking our defence forces and I absolutely hate that
 

p2prada

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One or two officials against a professional organisation which evaluated the aircrafts professionally, I would take the words of the professional organisation anyday.

Also, airforce is also part of our military force like our army and I dont think it is fair of you to undermine their position when you wont do something like that wrt to our army. Just a thought. The more the people here are talking nonsense against IAF's decisions , the more it seems to me that it is mocking our defence forces and I absolutely hate that
Test pilots shouldn't be trusted completely unless that information is officially verified through other sources.

Test pilots are only allowed to say positive things about the jets they fly. They are not a professional group when it comes to talking about the jet. This applies to American, European and Russian test pilots too. You hear a lot of crap about the F-35 nowadays, like how it flies better than the Eurocanards with air to air loadouts, like this BS here...

IN FOCUS: Lockheed claims F-35 kinematics 'better than or equal to' Typhoon or Super Hornet - 2/7/2013 - Flight Global
"The F-35 is comparable or better in every one of those metrics, sometimes by a significant margin, in both air-to-air, and when we hog-up those fourth-generation fighters, for the air-to-ground mission," says Billy Flynn, a Lockheed test pilot who is responsible for flight envelope expansion activities for all three variants.
I call BS when I see it. There is no way the F-35 will ever match the Typhoon or Rafale in air to air. So, the test pilot here is clearly lying. Test pilots have their own agendas, and that's to push company wares on the users, hence can never be trusted completely unless it is verified by an air force, be it the air force of any country.

Only what the users say matters. That's first and final. Either impress them or leave.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Firstly, No one is against anyone in professional world its not democracy, About the second i could tell the same as you, If only this were Retd officials and working for some firms or company where there loyalty rest, which is not the case ..

Their uniform represent the organization and their loyalty to IAF not some company, Their words tells the simple facts, Again if this was some media mumbo jumbo i would never quoted you either .. :)

One or two officials against a professional organisation which evaluated the aircrafts professionally, I would take the words of the professional organisation anyday. I absolutely hate that
 

ersakthivel

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One or two officials against a professional organisation which evaluated the aircrafts professionally, I would take the words of the professional organisation anyday.

Also, airforce is also part of our military force like our army and I dont think it is fair of you to undermine their position when you wont do something like that wrt to our army. Just a thought. The more the people here are talking nonsense against IAF's decisions , the more it seems to me that it is mocking our defence forces and I absolutely hate that
Test pilots shouldn't be trusted completely unless that information is officially verified through other sources.

Test pilots are only allowed to say positive things about the jets they fly. They are not a professional group when it comes to talking about the jet. This applies to American, European and Russian test pilots too. You hear a lot of crap about the F-35 nowadays, like how it flies better than the Eurocanards with air to air loadouts, like this BS here...

IN FOCUS: Lockheed claims F-35 kinematics 'better than or equal to' Typhoon or Super Hornet - 2/7/2013 - Flight Global


I call BS when I see it. There is no way the F-35 will ever match the Typhoon or Rafale in air to air. So, the test pilot here is clearly lying. Test pilots have their own agendas, and that's to push company wares on the users, hence can never be trusted completely unless it is verified by an air force, be it the air force of any country.

Only what the users say matters. That's first and final. Either impress them or leave.
Whatever floats your boat!
I know what both of you are getting at,

Opposed to off the cuff comments made in the heat of the moment by Airmarshals in vayu stratpost denigrating tejas and in their continuous effort to justify their absurd below 30 ton weight class requirement for their MMRCA tender,

the following statement by IAF chief in his official position in IOC-2 ceremony clearly indicates that ,"tejas has achieved the required certification standards for airworthiness, manoeuvrability and air-to-air as well as air-to-ground weaponisation," he added.

Also this statement is coming from a man who is fully associated with tejas program and has officially stated that ,"Personally, I greatly value my association with the Tejas programme since 2007; when I took over as the Deputy Chief of Air Staff. And, as I prepare to hang up the uniform at this month-end, I would have gone home as a sad person if the LCA IOC had not been achieved," he added.

"
SO as far as tejas is concerned the official IAF view and test pilot comments from Suneeth krishna and Riaz khokar NTSE chief all co incide along with certification material released for tejas in IOC-2 .

So what ever F-35 test pilot says about F-356 has no co relation to tejas.

There are many questions that need to be answered by the MMRCA evaluation team as well.

Rafale has a far weaker ASEA radar and only one way datalink with Meteor.

Typhoon has a far bigger asea radar and two way link with Meteor BVR missile.

SO you yourself can describe which fighter can use Meteor to its best potential.

What is IAF view on this?

Typhoon is also offering Starwars helmet with the plane while rafale lacks even the basic HMDS during most of the MMRCA evaluation process.

Also Typhoon is better performer at high altitude super sonic flight profile, while rafale is a better performer at low altitude subsonic flight profile.

SO which fighter will better fit IAF which already has a high value ground strike SU-30 MKI with brahmos mated to it?

Typhoon or rafale?

Even in test Evaluations cited by EADS some study indicated that whil;e typhoon does better against Flankers the same can not be said about rafale was the conclusion.



The test pilot comments of tejas coincides with the views expressed by IAF chief on IOC-2, SO as far as tejas is concerned these test pilot views are facts, however harder a few guys here want to portray that all dassault PR is fact and test p[ilot comments on tejas are lies,

IAF chief describes second clearance to Tejas as historic milestone , AniNews.in

IAF chief describes second clearance to Tejas as historic milestone , AniNews.in

======================================================
Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne on Friday said Tejas receiving its second initial operational clearance should be seen as a historic milestone, and added that signifies India's entry into a select group of nations capable of designing their own state-of-the-art fighter aircraft.





Earlier today, the fourth generation Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas received its second initial operational clearance here.

Speaking on the occasion, Browne said: "This day marks a historic milestone and signifies India's entry into a select group of nations capable of designing their own state-of-the-art fighter aircraft."

"Having come a long way since the finalisation of Air Staff Requirements (ASR) in 1985, Tejas has completed an arduous journey through a complex and challenging design and development process, and has achieved the required certification standards for airworthiness, manoeuvrability and air-to-air as well as air-to-ground weaponisation," he added.

"It is indeed a proud day for the nation and particularly for the IAF; since the grant of IOC acknowledges the capabilities of this aircraft and paves the way for induction of LCA MK I into operational service," Air Chief Marshal Browne said.

Tejas is a light weight, single engine, single seat, supersonic and multirole, combat aircraft. It has been in the making for almost three decades and has seen several delays and huge cost over-runs. It has quadruplex digital fly-by-wire Flight Control System (FCS) with associated advanced flight control laws. Extensive use of advanced composites in the airframe gives a high strength to weight ratio, long fatigue life and low radar signatures.

"Given the complex regional security paradigm, India faces unique challenges in its endeavour to secure national interests and ensure a stable environment for its socio-economic growth," the air chief said.

"Since aerospace power presents the most prompt and effective response options, the IAF has embarked upon a comprehensive enhancement of its capabilities with an overarching goal of acquiring full spectrum dominance. The wholehearted support and firm commitment by the government has catalysed the IAF's transformational journey and has facilitated the successful induction of state-of-the-art platforms and weapon systems," he added.

"This modernisation roadmap envisages many more such acquisitions in coming years and these capabilities will enable the IAF to field a host of sovereign options for our nation in its response to future security challenges," he said.

"However, the creation of a modern and capable military capability for our nation's defence hinges entirely on the foundation of a robust indigenous industrial base. This is particularly true for the military aviation sector since it involves high-end research and specialised production facilities," Air Chief Marshal Browne said.

"Design of a modern fighter aircraft encompasses an array of niche technologies that are very expensive and invariably subject to stringent technology denial regimes. Therefore, the success achieved in this important national project is highly significant since it demonstrates India's scientific prowess and puts our nation firmly on the path of achieving self reliance in the critical aerospace sector," he added.

"The design and development process for LCA Tejas has added tremendous learning value for our scientific fraternity as well as HAL and has created a vast repository of knowledge during the design refinement and realignment over these years," he said.

"These must not be lost as we move onto other programmes. Through the initial phases, the Technology Demonstrator as well as the Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft proved the fundamental strength of this platform while incorporating multiple enhancements for retaining LCA's efficacy in the fast paced and technology driven operational environment," he added.

"Today, the LCA project has seen successful integration of a state-of-the-art avionics suite in a well-defined glass cockpit configuration. The aircraft uses significant composite structures and incorporates robust control laws for the digital fly-by-wire system," he said.

"Successful integration of various types of air to air and air to ground weapons have added the much needed firepower to this fighter. All of these core technologies and design features have made Tejas a truly modern fighter aircraft in spite*/ of being the smallest and lightest in its class," he added.

"Personally, I greatly value my association with the Tejas programme since 2007; when I took over as the Deputy Chief of Air Staff. And, as I prepare to hang up the uniform at this month-end, I would have gone home as a sad person if the LCA IOC had not been achieved," he added.

"Having experienced the trials and tribulations of this complex programme first hand, I acknowledge the tremendous hard work put in by all players in successful culmination of the first phase. The constitution of an IAF Project Monitoring Team along with the decision to ensure continuity of the test crew at NFTC have since paid rich dividends by providing necessary traction to the certification process. You will agree that these teams along with several internal committees have facilitated regular interface and close interactions between users and designers, thus enabling smooth conduct of trials in critical stages of the programme," he said.

"While the nation celebrates grant of IOC to Tejas, we cannot rest on these laurels since our work is well 'cut out' for the days ahead. With the series production of 20 IOC aircraft being an immediate goal, ADA with its associated design partners and HAL have to continue steering the project steadily towards achievement of FOC standards by Dec 2014, " the air chief said.

"It is also imperative that we establish a robust spare support supply chain for maintaining the fleet in the coming years. With the integration of new BVR missiles, integral guns and air-to-air refueling capability, LCA will acquire increased potency and enhanced operational efficiency as envisaged at the FOC level," he added.

"As the programme gathers pace, we must remember that the final goal for all of us is not just the LCA Mk I, but the LCA Mk II. IAF keenly looks forward to induction of four squadrons of LCA MK II as the final version in its projected force structure," Air Chief Marshal Browne said.


By Praful Kumar Singh
======================================================

Opposed to off the cuff comments made in the heat of the moment by Airmarshals in vayu stratpost denigrating tejas and in their continuous effort to justify their absurd below 30 ton weight class requirement for their MMRCA tender,

the following statement by IAF chief in his official position in IOC-2 ceremony clearly indicates that ,"tejas has achieved the required certification standards for airworthiness, manoeuvrability and air-to-air as well as air-to-ground weaponisation," he added.

Also this statement is coming from a man who is fully associated with tejas program and has officially stated that ,"Personally, I greatly value my association with the Tejas programme since 2007; when I took over as the Deputy Chief of Air Staff. And, as I prepare to hang up the uniform at this month-end, I would have gone home as a sad person if the LCA IOC had not been achieved," he added.

"
 
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p2prada

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There is news that CNC has almost finished negotiations. The CCS will receive two prices, one with direct costs related to direct acquisition costs and another would be life cycle costs. The draft contract has been handed over to CCS. They say contract will be signed by December.

The biggest hurdles are almost done. Now MoF will go through the deal.
 

Dhairya Yadav

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There is news that CNC has almost finished negotiations. The CCS will receive two prices, one with direct costs related to direct acquisition costs and another would be life cycle costs. The draft contract has been handed over to CCS. They say contract will be signed by December.

The biggest hurdles are almost done. Now MoF will go through the deal.
Any expected date for signing of Deal? Also , when will we receive first Aircraft ?
 

p2prada

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Any expected date for signing of Deal? Also , when will we receive first Aircraft ?
Just knowing the deal is being prepped for signature is big news. Even the govt won't really know when they can sign because MoF will have queries along with CCS. Dassault and MoD will have to clear those queries and that can take a month, maybe more. There are minimum number of days that the file has to be with each department before the contract is signed, and it even goes to the PMO.

BJP is not going to scuttle the deal.
 

halloweene

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@halloweene @Drsomnath999

Can you give an approximate idea of range of A-G scan and track mode for RBE2-AA?
What do you want to scan? Ground for deep penetration followgound systems? Tanks? confused. And anw if i could give you a rough idea it could be only on ONERA recent developments (which are semi-public) not on present ones which are classified (and therefor i dont have any idea about).
 
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ersakthivel

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The devil is in the details. According to file notings made by the top officials there are serious mistakes in the way life cycle cost was attempted to be calculated by the team by exclusively relying on Dassault data. Some reports suggest that lifecycle cost method was abandoned mid way. We dont know the truth. And there were many items under sundry items head whose cost was not available.

And the discount offered by the TYPHOON is the elephant in the room when Dassault chief meets higher officials in Delhi.
 

Dhairya Yadav

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The devil is in the details. According to file notings made by the top officials there are serious mistakes in the way life cycle cost was attempted to be calculated by the team by exclusively relying on Dassault data. Some reports suggest that lifecycle cost method was abandoned mid way. We dont know the truth. And there were many items under sundry items head whose cost was not available.

And the discount offered by the TYPHOON is the elephant in the room when Dassault chief meets higher officials in Delhi.
this is interesting. whats the source?
 

ersakthivel

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this is interesting. whats the source?
it was all over the national news media a month back.
German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Euro fighter Typhoon : DEFENCE - India Today

. The Narendra Modi Government, INDIA TODAY has learnt, is studying the German proposal even as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been nego-tiating with France's Dassault, the maker of the Rafale, to finalise agree-ments to produce the aircraft in India. The Rafale deal for 126 jets is esti-mated to cost 20 billion euros (Rs.1.6 lakh crore) over the next decade and is considered the biggest global de-fence tender.

In terms of the net present value- the hypothetical cost of buying the entire fleet in one go at current pri-ces-the new offer is at a little more than 10.5 billion euros while the French price is estimated to be a billion euros more. Calculated on the basis of the firm fixed price-or the amount India has to pay over 10 years-the German price comes to 17.5 billion euros.

In 2012, it is believed the Euro-fighter was priced at more than 21 billion euros, a difference significant enough for the French to win the race. A long process of consultations has since been going on between Dassault and HAL to co-produce the fighter jet. Although these technical and com-mercial negotiations are learnt to be at an advanced stage, the contract has been hanging fire.



Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/german-led-european-cheaper-euro-fighter-typhoon/1/378279.html


Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/german-led-european-cheaper-euro-fighter-typhoon/1/378279.html
And typhoon has a starwars HMDS which can see through at 360 degs

And it has a much more powerful ASEA radar along with 2 way data link for meteor.

It was also shortlisted as technically acceptable by IAF in MMRCA contract.
 

Dhairya Yadav

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it was all over the national news media a month back.
German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Euro fighter Typhoon : DEFENCE - India Today



And typhoon has a starwars HMDS which can see through at 360 degs

And it has a much more powerful ASEA radar along with 2 way data link for meteor.

It was also shortlisted as technically acceptable by IAF in MMRCA contract.
i didnt mean this. I meant the irregularities in calculating life cycle costs.
 

Shirman

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What i personally think is rafale deal will get signed by December
Hal Lca tejas Mk2 should give some good news after aero India 2015 especially after New Modi mania in bureaucracy towards Defense Psus @p2prada i wanted to know the status of Ge414 IN engines for mk2 have they landed in India yet....is full scale model of Lca mk2 possible in this Aero India 15........
And Sukhoi Super 30 mki program should be reality in 2016-17 with brand new Bars based Aesa (@Austin had given link of latest Take off magazine where NIIT director had given briefing on latest Russian Radar Tech) heres the link of website its in PDF version :- Take-off Magazine
Hence i see Super Su-30 Mki, Tejas Mk2 and Rafale happening this decade at least this much Modi is expected to deliver when he is in office till 2019 to IAF .....Amca, FGFA PFI "Prospective frontline fighter" is post 2020
 
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p2prada

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@p2prada i wanted to know the status of Ge414 IN engines for mk2 have they landed in India yet....is full scale model of Lca mk2 possible in this Aero India 15........
The design specifications were delivered. The engine delivery is yet to happen.

Not sure about the model.

And Sukhoi Super 30 mki program should be reality in 2016-17 with brand new Bars based Aesa (@Austin had given link of latest Take off magazine where NIIT director had given briefing on latest Russian Radar Tech) heres the link of website its in PDF version :- Take-off Magazine
That was the last known information about the program.
 
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arnabmit

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Both active (SAM or Radar sites) & passive (Tanks/IFVs/artillery) static or moving targets. ONERA data for RBE-2AA is OK.

What do you want to scan? Ground for deep penetration followgound systems? Tanks? confused. And anw if i could give you a rough idea it could be only on ONERA recent developments (which are semi-public) not on present ones which are classified (and therefor i dont have any idea about).
 

halloweene

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Well, curiously it is easier to get data from scientists on what mill be than from militaries on what is...
RAMSES NG pod have a centimetric resolution (5cms) at 20 Kms in X band.
 

ersakthivel

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Whatever floats your boat!
http://cit.edu.in/conference_pdf.php?work=419.pdf



It is so pleasant to learn that project director of Mas orbiter Mission is from Coimbatore Institute of Technology. And He is from Mech Engineering . I too did Mech Engineering there.

It's a great honor for us all from CIT.

It is good to know that nation is not dependent exclusively on IITs for its top tech talents.
Well our guys are floating the boat around mars orbit, So what is wrong in me floating tejas boat.

The mud head you rely on for info on tejas is dead wrong about everything he writes as he knows nothing about aerodynamics or any fluid mechanical principles behind fighter design and simply vomits some brochure stuff to fake expertise.
 
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RajG

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Well our guys are floating the boat around mars orbit, So what is wrong in me floating tejas boat.

The mud head you rely on for info on tejas is dead wrong about everything he writes as he knows nothing about aerodynamics or any fluid mechanical principles behind fighter design and simply vomits some brochure stuff to fake expertise.

When we ink this deal of $20B I am going to change my MOM reference to say that "We put a spacecraft in the Mars orbit for less than the cost of half a Rafale Jet"
 

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