Know Your 'Rafale'

[jik60]

100%, AONs are basically worthless. AON have been given to ATAGS, FICV,NMRH, NUH, P8 tranche 3 etc and we all know what has become of them

this is the very start of the process, contracts are a LONG way away, probably 2-4 years (if ever)

exact situation with the MQ9s and GE414 deal.

This govt has been promoting AONs as if they are contracts, before 2014 when was this nonsense ever hyped so much?

For simplicity :

DAC AON ---> Cost Negotiation / Agreement //Doc / paper work---> DAC Approval ----> CCS Approval --> Contract Signature

Any changes in the scope of the project go back to the DAC AON stage

There have been many recent changes to the MOD's Procurement processes, and many indigenous contracts did not happen to be tabled in front of CCS, it was concluded within the DAC ambit

 

[abingdonboy]

"For 60 Years mitro"
"60 YEARS"
"The Congress party has neglected the needs of Indian defence"
"But me, I am leaving no stone unturned to equip our army with the best foreign and Atmanirbhar weapons"


View attachment 214372

The vibe of this guy is "LOOK MITRO I'M GETTING SHIT DONE AS COMPARED TO CHORGRESSIS ONLY EATING YOUR MONEY"

It's not wrong though but then he does heavy promotion for things that will materialize only years later.
After all public needs to be shown *something* that *shows* our guy is getting things done.
Not everyone is a 400 IQ defence enthusiast geek, or electronics geek, or infrastructure nerd etc.

In 75-90% of cases Modi does what he sets out to do but defence is a law unto themselves. The circles and circuses that have gone through in the MoD the last 9 years for almost 0 tangible benefits is truly breathtaking- DPP 2016, SPM, DPP 2020 etc all meant to be ‘game changers’, all delivering next to nothing

but the nonstop BS pushed by the BJP/GoI handles over just AONs since 2014 to coverup their utter failure on this front is infuriating. I wouldn’t be as peeved but we just had to live through the Modi US visit with all the hoopla around the drones/engines starting well before and well after, amounting to jack sh!t (MoUs) and a few weeks later the same cycle is being repeated with Rafales/Scorpenes.

electioneering is going to even lower depths now, fair enough get credit for deals signed but promoting AONs when contracts are not even on the horizon is low

 

[abingdonboy]

For simplicity :

DAC AON ---> Cost Negotiation / Agreement //Doc / paper work---> DAC Approval ----> CCS Approval --> Contract Signature

Any changes in the scope of the project go back to the DAC AON stage

There have been many recent changes to the MOD's Procurement processes, and many indigenous contracts did not happen to be tabled in front of CCS, it was concluded within the DAC ambit

AON as you pointed out is the very very first step, the bulk of this (contract negotiations) will take a freaking long time (at least 2-3 years minimum) Modi likely won’t even be PM when/if these deals are ever signed (if he sticks to the 75 year old retirement age)

there’s almost nothing here worth discussing other than the F18 got dumped so fast/hard when all the fanboys were telling us it was the obvious winner just weeks/months ago

 

[shade]

In 75-90% of cases Modi does what he sets out to do but defence is a law unto themselves. The circles and circuses that have gone through in the MoD the last 9 years for almost 0 tangible benefits is truly breathtaking- DPP 2016, SPM, DPP 2020 etc all meant to be ‘game changers’, all delivering next to nothing

but the nonstop BS pushed by the BJP/GoI handles over just AONs since 2014 to coverup their utter failure on this front is infuriating. I wouldn’t be as peeved but we just had to live through the Modi US visit with all the hoopla around the drones/engines starting well before and well after, amounting to jack sh!t (MoUs) and a few weeks later the same cycle is being repeated with Rafales/Scorpenes.

electioneering is going to even lower depths now, fair enough get credit for deals signed but promoting AONs when contracts are not even on the horizon is low

He has to show he's better than congress, keyword here is "show".
Afterall at max he is a 5 year guest, the UPSC inhabitants of MoD and Uniformed specification-writers and order-placers are there for a much longer term.

Then there is the political mudsling with foreign equipment purchases

 

[WolfPack86]

BREAKING: PM
@NarendraModi
formally announces 'cooperation' with France on naval fighters & submarines -- to be read as the Rafale-M & Scorpene procurements that will now be negotiated by teams on both sides.

 

[Azaad]

BREAKING: PM
@NarendraModi
formally announces 'cooperation' with France on naval fighters & submarines -- to be read as the Rafale-M & Scorpene procurements that will now be negotiated by teams on both sides.

Kuch N submarine ke vishay par , 2-3 adhik squadron Rafale ke IAF ke khatir LAC ke liye & AMCA Mk-2 120 KN TF ke vishay par bhi Modiji koi bayaan dete toh yahaan kuch logon ko shantipurvak neend mil jaati aaj raat ko kahi varshon ke pashchaat.

In other words , ab aur dimaag ki maa mat xhodh , Modi , bohut sabr karwa liya , phal jald hi ja milaa toh tandav machega.

 

[stat231]

Kuch N submarine ke vishay par , 2-3 adhik squadron Rafale ke IAF ke khatir LAC ke liye & AMCA Mk-2 120 KN TF ke vishay par bhi Modiji koi bayaan dete toh yahaan kuch logon ko shantipurvak neend mil jaati aaj raat ko kahi varshon ke pashchaat.

In other words , ab aur dimaag ki maa mat xhodh , Modi , bohut sabr karwa liya , phal jald hi ja milaa toh tandav machega.

I am 17 mai 3 saal pehle defence news ko follow krna start kiya, shuru mei sab kitna acha tha fir dheere dheere jo sab seekha hai vo dekh kar lagta hai kabhi iss line mei aana hin nahi chahiye tha , frustation ki koi end hin nahi hai

 

[Azaad]

I am 17 mai 3 saal pehle defence news ko follow krna start kiya, shuru mei sab kitna acha tha fir dheere dheere jo sab seekha hai vo dekh kar lagta hai kabhi iss line mei aana hin nahi chahiye tha , frustation ki koi end hin nahi hai

If that's the case, if you were in my place when I was your age & first chanced upon BRF some 20 yrs ago when accessing internet itself was a luxury leave aside a decent connection to check on the progress of the LCA & the extreme frustration each twist & turn took, you'd either have committed suicide or taken sanyas or broken a few monitors.

Things are much more clearer now & the road map much more defined plus our personnel, products , processes & systems much more advanced & refined.

That aside, the only perennially delayed program is the MRFA of which procuring 2-3 squadrons of Rafale is more than overdue. Quite frankly, the others are within reasonable bounds of tolerance even if delayed, though getting a decision on them ASAP certainly helps.

 

[shade]

If that's the case, if you were in my place when I was your age & first chanced upon BRF some 20 yrs ago when accessing internet itself was a luxury leave aside a decent connection to check on the progress of the LCA & the extreme frustration each twist & turn took, you'd either have committed suicide or taken sanyas or broken a few monitors.

Things are much more clearer now & the road map much more defined plus our personnel, products , processes & systems much more advanced & refined.

That aside, the only perennially delayed program is the MRFA of which procuring 2-3 squadrons of Rafale is more than overdue. Quite frankly, the others are within reasonable bounds of tolerance even if delayed, though getting a decision on them ASAP certainly helps.

MFRA will drag on till 2030 with no end in sight.

Gobi's current model of <30 rafales is the only way to replenish our depleting squadron strength, since Air Marshlols don't want any kind of Tejas

 

[stat231]

MFRA will drag on till 2030 with no end in sight.

Gobi's current model of <30 rafales is the only way to replenish our depleting squadron strength, since Air Marshlols don't want any kind of Tejas

All these statements given by retired air marshals recently bashing LCA and calling it maruti 800s and all these other names of all sort is really worrysome, dont want to end up at the same place with tejas mk2 as we did with mk1

 

[stat231]

If that's the case, if you were in my place when I was your age & first chanced upon BRF some 20 yrs ago when accessing internet itself was a luxury leave aside a decent connection to check on the progress of the LCA & the extreme frustration each twist & turn took, you'd either have committed suicide or taken sanyas or broken a few monitors.

Things are much more clearer now & the road map much more defined plus our personnel, products , processes & systems much more advanced & refined.

That aside, the only perennially delayed program is the MRFA of which procuring 2-3 squadrons of Rafale is more than overdue. Quite frankly, the others are within reasonable bounds of tolerance even if delayed, though getting a decision on them ASAP certainly helps.

I am sorry if I sounded overly pessimistic (I have got a lot to learn sir)

 

[shade]

All these statements given by retired air marshals recently bashing LCA and calling it maruti 800s and all these other names of all sort is really worrysome, dont want to end up at the same place with tejas mk2 as we did with mk1

Lol that is exactly what is going to happen, even if they get some proper Tejas mk2 prototypes up( gora sahib needs to gib GE414 ), it's performace pleases the Air Mashlols who want sixth gen AI powered fighters shooting lasers, even then it will be given some <50 pieces ka order, and by 2030 they will have to get rid of the remaining Mig21s and Jaguars.

We are getting our asses handed over to us in a war against China, even in best case scenario of continued modi-raaj.

Fuck the Air Marshols and the Generlols.

 

[shade]

I am sorry if I sounded overly pessimistic (I have got a lot to learn sir)

Heed these wise words Boi

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

BREAKING: PM
@NarendraModi
formally announces 'cooperation' with France on naval fighters & submarines -- to be read as the Rafale-M & Scorpene procurements that will now be negotiated by teams on both sides.

Is this going to be F4 version, assuming Navy follows similar version? @abingdonboy do you know?

 

[johnj]

If that's the case, if you were in my place when I was your age & first chanced upon BRF some 20 yrs ago when accessing internet itself was a luxury leave aside a decent connection to check on the progress of the LCA & the extreme frustration each twist & turn took, you'd either have committed suicide or taken sanyas or broken a few monitors.

Things are much more clearer now & the road map much more defined plus our personnel, products , processes & systems much more advanced & refined.

That aside, the only perennially delayed program is the MRFA of which procuring 2-3 squadrons of Rafale is more than overdue. Quite frankly, the others are within reasonable bounds of tolerance even if delayed, though getting a decision on them ASAP certainly helps.

I waited more than 2 decade for MOD to clear up to 150 lca mk1,now 40+83, and I'm hoping more orders in future, meanwhile MMRCA/MRFA is not going anywhere, only change going to happen is, 4.5gen to 5th gen
"Things are much more clearer now & the road map much more defined plus our personnel, products , processes & systems much more advanced & refined." - a major correction, not more advanced but less advanced stage currently, we started from .5 gen behind and able to bring leading and advanced equipment in past, but currently 1.5 to 2 decade behind due to UPA, forcing more and more import in future, these imports going to eat a lots of our R&D money
Also there is a lots of delayed program in IAF alone, including MMRCA, LCA, AMCA, aerial tanker, AWACS, attack drone, alcm, pgms, standoff weapons every thing is delayed, only good news is AFnet & limited nos of S400 excluding cancelled pgrms

 

[johnj]

MFRA will drag on till 2030 with no end in sight.

Gobi's current model of <30 rafales is the only way to replenish our depleting squadron strength, since Air Marshlols don't want any kind of Tejas

We already lost race thanks to UPA, and only option left for IAF now is LCA, order more LCA or fly outdated/ vintage ac and keep crying MMRCA/MRFA/.......
Bottom line - IAF end up with 300+ LCA both mk1 gef404 and mk2 gef414

 

[spacemarine2023]

All these statements given by retired air marshals recently bashing LCA and calling it maruti 800s and all these other names of all sort is really worrysome, dont want to end up at the same place with tejas mk2 as we did with mk1

I dont think IAF will be going back on MK1A or MK2, three production lines in parallel means a long commitment from Defense ministry… only threat I see is UPA3 coming back in 2024.
If not by 2029 we will see MK2 getting produced in all three production lines and no change of govt will be able to stop that…
Tejas is well liked by pilots now … American engines are more reliable than French and Russians … Airforce will not be going back simple reason Rafales and new gen American jets are too expensive for IAF

 

[spacemarine2023]

We already lost race thanks to UPA, and only option left for IAF now is LCA, order more LCA or fly outdated/ vintage ac and keep crying MMRCA/MRFA/.......
Bottom line - IAF end up with 300+ LCA both mk1 gef404 and mk2 gef414

300 plus for sure… some thing like 300 plus 300

 

[shade]

I dont think IAF will be going back on MK1A or MK2, three production lines in parallel means a long commitment from Defense ministry… only threat I see is UPA3 coming back in 2024.
If not by 2029 we will see MK2 getting produced in all three production lines and no change of govt will be able to stop that…
Tejas is well liked by pilots now … American engines are more reliable than French and Russians … Airforce will not be going back simple reason Rafales and new gen American jets are too expensive for IAF

Don't underestimate the power of greed.
Already the strength of greed is so overpowering that they are willing to risk combat readiness vs the ching just so that they can force Gobi's hand to get the imports of choice.
And i'm not talking about Rafale, perhaps they want F16s in place of Tejas or whatever.

ofc with UPA coming it's game over, they'll shutdown the Tejas production and have us buy 100 F16s from their godfather US.
In Israel the jews had to cancel the development of their indigenous fighter IAI Lavi in place of F16s from US, in the end the IAI Lavi design and prototypes were sold to China and that is today the J-10 fighter.

 

[spacemarine2023]

Don't underestimate the power of greed.
Already the strength of greed is so overpowering that they are willing to risk combat readiness vs the ching just so that they can force Gobi's hand to get the imports of choice.
And i'm not talking about Rafale, perhaps they want F16s in place of Tejas or whatever.

ofc with UPA coming it's game over, they'll shutdown the Tejas production and have us buy 100 F16s from their godfather US.
In Israel the jews had to cancel the development of their indigenous fighter IAI Lavi in place of F16s from US, in the end the IAI Lavi design and prototypes were sold to China and that is today the J-10 fighter.

lets see how it goes … but once 16 MK1A starts popping an year there is no going back