Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Said so from day 1- Rafale is the only game in town, SH was just to keep the French honest + to tick the regulatory boxes (open multi party bidding)

i hope both sides are finally wise enough to talk sensibly on a strategic level and neither gets myopic and starts bean counting.

If one connects the dots, France is on the cusp of taking over the position Russia/USSR held with India (technological partnership where nothing was off the table) and india continues its policy of keeping the US at arm’s length

the French involvement will surely/hopefully be in:

-Rafale (IAF/IN)
- 110-125KN JV
- IMRH engine
- AMCA (?)
-SSBN/SSN
- civil nuclear reactors
-AWACS (NETRA Mk.2 and AWACS(I) will be Airbus mounted)+SIGINT


along The way there will be plenty more projects popping up if the above go ahead

It is rumored here in France that we already agree to give the know how for pump helix (not sure it is the right english term) for subs.

 

[pankaj nema]

Said so from day 1- Rafale is the only game in town, SH was just to keep the French honest + to tick the regulatory boxes (open multi party bidding)

i hope both sides are finally wise enough to talk sensibly on a strategic level and neither gets myopic and starts bean counting.

If one connects the dots, France is on the cusp of taking over the position Russia/USSR held with India (technological partnership where nothing was off the table) and india continues its policy of keeping the US at arm’s length

the French involvement will surely/hopefully be in:

-Rafale (IAF/IN)
- 110-125KN JV
- IMRH engine
- AMCA (?)
-SSBN/SSN
- civil nuclear reactors
-AWACS (NETRA Mk.2 and AWACS(I) will be Airbus mounted)+SIGINT


along The way there will be plenty more projects popping up if the above go ahead

The Engine Technology for AMCA MK 2 is the Biggest Stumbling Block for
Additional Rafale Orders

We need planes AND also Engine Technology
Who will accept our Demands

 

[BON PLAN]

The Engine Technology for AMCA MK 2 is the Biggest Stumbling Block for
Additional Rafale Orders

We need planes AND also Engine Technology
Who will accept our Demands

No one will give you full know how for just 36 jets.

We only give you part of know how, because :
1) you already have some knowledge (Kaveri is not a full failure).
2) All depends of the technological level of the rest of your industry. It's a bad thing to explain you how to use a 3rd gen crystal blade if you only are able to produce 2nd gen. All is linked to the scientific and technological strenght of your country. USA > Europe > Russia > China.
3) The few country that are able to study and produce fighter engine had invested billions these last 75 years. It's a jewel and the price is too huge to give all.

 

[pankaj nema]

No one will give you full know how for just 36 jets.

We only give you part of know how, because :
1) you already have some knowledge (Kaveri is not a full failure).
2) All depends of the technological level of the rest of your industry. It's a bad thing to explain you how to use a 3rd gen crystal blade if you only are able to produce 2nd gen. All is linked to the scientific and technological strenght of your country. USA > Europe > Russia > China.
3) The few country that are able to study and produce fighter engine had invested billions these last 75 years. It's a jewel and the price is too huge to give all.

So Can we say that Buying 100 More Rafales And 3 more Conventional Submarines will be enough to seal this Engine Collaboration Deal

 

[DumbPilot]

So Can we say that Buying 100 More Rafales And 3 more Conventional Submarines will be enough to seal this Engine Collaboration Deal

Why not invest that money worth of 100 Rafales into your engine program?

 

[Love Charger]

Why not invest that money worth of 100 Rafales into your engine program?

Well amca is far away. But airforce for various reasons is weakening. We face direct chink and paki threat .
It will be wise to spend money on proven platforms

 

[DumbPilot]

Well amca is far away. But airforce for various reasons is weakening. We face direct chink and paki threat .
It will be wise to spend money on proven platforms

The original question of @pankaj nema was how many Rafales we'd need to buy before the French would give us "ToT".

The answer is: Even if we buy one thousand Rafales, they won't..

 

[abingdonboy]

No one will give you full know how for just 36 jets.

We only give you part of know how, because :
1) you already have some knowledge (Kaveri is not a full failure).
2) All depends of the technological level of the rest of your industry. It's a bad thing to explain you how to use a 3rd gen crystal blade if you only are able to produce 2nd gen. All is linked to the scientific and technological strenght of your country. USA > Europe > Russia > China.
3) The few country that are able to study and produce fighter engine had invested billions these last 75 years. It's a jewel and the price is too huge to give all.

It’s not about Rafale imo (that’s only part of it)

India has a separate effort to get a partner for the JV for a 110-125KN engine that will power the AMCA MK.2 from 2035-

France would be a natural partner here and Safran were said to be close to signing with the GoI before RR and GE made their own submissions

seen as a whole it would make sense for France to treat india as a strategic partner and vice versa I feel that both sides have been a bit too cold/distant in the past. Hopefully this is different today and both can recognise the mutual benefits and shared outlook

 

[BON PLAN]

Why not invest that money worth of 100 Rafales into your engine program?

It was the way followed by Kaveri program. It is among the hardest job so far, and see the chinese exemple : it takes 30 years for them just to be able to copy and paste russian engines.

 

[BON PLAN]

So Can we say that Buying 100 More Rafales And 3 more Conventional Submarines will be enough to seal this Engine Collaboration Deal

I really don't know. It's better than 36 jets for sure !
One thing is an asset for India : you are far more reliable in term of intelectual property than China for exemple, so a know how transfert is more likely with you than with nearly any other country.

 

[Tridev123]

It was the way followed by Kaveri program. It is among the hardest job so far, and see the chinese exemple : it takes 30 years for them just to be able to copy and paste russian engines.

While high performance turbofan engine technology is a niche technology and uses cutting edge materials science knowledge, let's not turn it into some sort of Star Wars technology.

It was created by a human brain, not some alien Martian technology. If the Americans, Russians, French and the British could do it, so can the Indians(and probably also the Chinese).

I believe its about recruiting the right people with the desired skill sets and effective project management. As the Indian high school teaching framework makes a move from rewarding rote/memory learning to rewarding independent thinking and grasp of basic science concepts (practical applications of science) it will provide the ladder to make university education(graduate and postgraduate) more effective.

There needs to be a transformation in the Graduate and Postgraduate educational framework. The professionals coming out of these institutions should be world class and employable.

It is an indisputable fact that the American Higher Education system has been a primary factor driving US innovation.

India needs to develop an similar high performance educational system(not needed to mimic the US system but something suitable for Indian conditions).

We will see more indigenous innovation and patents happening in India.


And to remind the French. Although the French military industrial complex is a high output system, it did receive a lot of American technical assistance immediately after the Second World War. So for the French to become too snooty is perhaps not justified. India has the potential to become another pole in a future multi polar world. Helping India in jet engine technology is actually a good strategy for France. It will benefit both countries in the long run. I am sure that the French will like to become more independent of the US.

It will certainly not be charity. India has the ability to pay appropriately for the technology.

 

[BON PLAN]

And to remind the French. Although the French military industrial complex is a high output system, it did receive a lot of American technical assistance immediately after the Second World War.

Some exemple ?
They gave money (Marshall plan), but what about technology ?
We developp our engine and plane program alone, with the helps of some germans pow.
We developp our nuclear program alone (with a small help from british for H bomb)

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Some exemple ?
They gave money (Marshall plan), but what about technology ?
We developp our engine and plane program alone, with the helps of some germans pow.
We developp our nuclear program alone (with a small help from british for H bomb)

Snecma had extensive JV programs with Bristol and GE

 

[BON PLAN]

Snecma had extensive JV programs with Bristol and GE

The JV with GE was born in the 1960. Not just after ww2....
Bristol? It was for Concorde engine, no? so not just after ww2.

 

[Flying Dagger]

In a french forum I gave some datas about the HAL bill to build a Rafale in India. It was 2,7 more expensive than the french price !
A Rafale built in France, without air base accomodation, no spares, no tools and test bench, no weapon cost around 100€ million with VAT. ie 80 million for export.

HAL is out of the game. Even MKI are probably assembled/built for twice the right price.

Wrong...

HAL quoted 2.7 time manhours to build the jet.

MKI built in India are expensive than Russian by 15-20 percent as we use several imported systems which are being replaced now.

The difference between Indian and French manhours is due to the high level of automation in process by French . Infact I guess more than the Americans.

HAL has almost completely indeginized the MKI perhaps that is one reason a private company is kind of reluctant to work with them. Many reason could be made but at the end it is what it is.

 

[abingdonboy]

Always said Rafale was favoured partly because of this, SH fanboys never addressed it

 

[Tridev123]

Some exemple ?
They gave money (Marshall plan), but what about technology ?
We developp our engine and plane program alone, with the helps of some germans pow.
We developp our nuclear program alone (with a small help from british for H bomb)

Well, I believe that the Marshall Plan which was implemented by the US to aid European Post Second World War recovery was not only about financial assistance.
To quote the Belgian economic historian Herman Van der Wee
It was a great success
'It gave a new impetus to reconstruction in Western Europe and made a decisive contribution to the renewal of the transport system, the modernisation of industrial and agricultural equipment, the resumption of normal production, the raising of productivity and the facilitating of intra-European trade '

European nations received nearly US dollars 13 billion(1947 figures appx) out of which the UK received the maximum 26% and France 18%. The assistance included food, staples, fuel and machinery and later resulted in investment in industrial capacity in Europe.

Now the majority of the technical assistance may have been in the civilian sector but one cannot exclude the rub off effect. Just like how China has been able to give a boost to its military sector by making use of dual use technologies. Western companies have established state of the art factories in China for production of civilian goods and services. But the Chinese have been able to utilise the new management practices and technologies that they learnt to make their weapons production factories more efficient.

You may have an dispute on the extent of technical assistance France received from the US during the fifties and sixties. But the truth is that France would have found it hard to recover without the help from the Marshall Plan.

My point is that France having been an recipient of foreign aid including technical aid in the past should not treat jet engine technology as an 'holy cow' and be reluctant to aid India.

You are free to disagree.
au revoir

 

[Johny_Baba]

Always said Rafale was favoured partly because of this, SH fanboys never addressed it

hhmm so giving nuclear strike capability to Naval jets here ?
i wonder if we would buy french ASMP-A tactical nuke missile, or going ahead with putting Brahmos Air Force Variant under it something like this

also, is it even possible i mean Brahmos Air Force variant is already 2500 some KG and i wonder Rafale centreline pylon could be this sturdy to load it...

 

[SajeevJino]

Always said Rafale was favoured partly because of this, SH fanboys never addressed it

so we need to choose Rafale M since it only can give us an option to launch nuclear missiles, I've a dream of driving a aircraft carrier and tell my pilots to arm their fighters with nuclear missiles to launch over Pakistan or China

is this even works in dreams

IMO, we might keep our nuclear options only with Ballistic missiles, both ICBMs and SLBMs .. no more Air Launched Nuclear missiles

 

[SajeevJino]

hhmm so giving nuclear strike capability to Naval jets here ?
i wonder if we would buy french ASMP-A tactical nuke missile, or going ahead with putting Brahmos Air Force Variant under it something like this
View attachment 189182
also, is it even possible i mean Brahmos Air Force variant is already 2500 some KG and i wonder Rafale centreline pylon could be this sturdy to load it...

lmao , do you think France will give us the ASMP - A and we will fit our nuclear warhead in it, and use them from Carrier as deterrence patrol,

what kinda weed you guys getting