Know Your 'Rafale'

[Kalkioftoday]

Though we would love to have the AMCA available to take on the J20, I am aware of the reality. The AMCA will not be available at least till the end of this decade.
Unless a miracle takes place.

I would not like to comment on the comparison between the Rafale and the J20.
Because we know little about the actual capabilities of the J20.
What is its frontal RCS?. What is the IR signature of its engine exhaust?.
Does it have a DAS capability like the F35.
How good is its AESA radar?.
The actual figures will be classified but even probable range of capability has not been disclosed by the Chinese.
One thing going for the J20 is that it was designed from the beginning as a stealth aircraft unlike the Rafale.
One significant drawback of 5th generation stealth aircraft is that they are maintenance intensive as compared to 4th generation planes. The turn around time will be more and sortie rates will be less.

In case it is fielded in large numbers in Tibet and Xinjiang against India we would be in a dilemma. The only two options immediately available are the Su57 and the F35.
Both have entered squadron service in their respective Air Forces.

The F35 will be a better choice but will the US provide it without too many strings attached.

But one assumes that the priority of the PLAAF would be the Taiwan theatre.
.

From the amount of radar related research paper china has published or the humoungus amount of research paper they've published regarding the Gallium Nitride technology or the amount of high end civilian optics market share they have captured one can easily find out that they have probably the best radar after the americans and they have a good enough DAS. They're not ignorant like us. Their military works very closely with their academia and their civilian companies in a perfect manner unlike us, whose army doesn't even know that the boot they're importing from israel at a premium price are actually made here in india and than exported to israel inorder to escape from the bureaucratic harrasment. Regarding j20s RCS say whatever you want but we have to agree that both the j20 and j31 is a beast with a proper engine. China have already put the 110kn engine on their j31s and here we didn't even bother getting an FTB

 

[Tridev123]

From the amount of radar related research paper china has published or the humoungus amount of research paper they've published regarding the Gallium Nitride technology or the amount of high end civilian optics market share they have captured one can easily find out that they have probably the best radar after the americans and they have a good enough DAS. They're not ignorant like us. Their military works very closely with their academia and their civilian companies in a perfect manner unlike us, whose army doesn't even know that the boot they're importing from israel at a premium price are actually made here in india and than exported to israel inorder to escape from the bureaucratic harrasment. Regarding j20s RCS say whatever you want but we have to agree that both the j20 and j31 is a beast with a proper engine. China have already put the 110kn engine on their j31s and here we didn't even bother getting an FTB

Yes, China has marched ahead quite well. But we should not forget that they gained immensely from FDI from developed countries. Not only investment and money but also some of the best management practices and new technology. If China had not opened up to foreign investment very early compared to India they would not be on the threshold of becoming a developed country. Regarding raw talent and skills Indians are probably better than the Chinese. We produced Nobel Laureates in science earlier than the Chinese.

Where was China in the fiftees, sixtees and seventees economically vis-a-vis India.
Their socio-economic indicators were similar to India.
They always had a very large military because Communism always stressed on the armed struggle and guns. As Chairman Mao said 'power flows from the barrel of the gun'. We on the other hand glorified Gandhi and Ahimsa.

Since we started later than the Chinese in attracting foreign investment and experts, we should give ourselves some time to assimilate the best from the world.
I foresee India gradually overcoming its deficiencies and becoming a developed country like China. Probably by the beginning of the next decade.

Even now we are not in a bad position as regards defence technology. There are some areas where we have to catch up. Especially drone technology. And aero engines. Let this be clear. India is no pushover. We erred in not creating an offensive Corps against China earlier because of a defensive mindset. Against Pakistan we have developed capability to bulldoze them twice over having achieved both qualitative and quantitative superiority. But I believe that the strategic thinking of India against China is changing. We now want to reply to the Chinese in kind. Probably the next major conflict with China will see the Indian Army threatening both Tibet and Xinjiang. If they want Arunachal Pradesh we want Tibet.

 

[IndiaRising]

Rafale vs jf17 block 3

First time I saw pakistani man ,who is educated

Paf is planning to get atleast 36 j10c to counter Rafale
Though still not confirmed

that itself is an admission that JF17 Block 3 will not live up to the hype they have created.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes, China has marched ahead quite well. But we should not forget that they gained immensely from FDI from developed countries. Not only investment and money but also some of the best management practices and new technology. If China had not opened up to foreign investment very early compared to India they would not be on the threshold of becoming a developed country. Regarding raw talent and skills Indians are probably better than the Chinese. We produced Nobel Laureates in science earlier than the Chinese.

Where was China in the fiftees, sixtees and seventees economically vis-a-vis India.
Their socio-economic indicators were similar to India.
They always had a very large military because Communism always stressed on the armed struggle and guns. As Chairman Mao said 'power flows from the barrel of the gun'. We on the other hand glorified Gandhi and Ahimsa.

Since we started later than the Chinese in attracting foreign investment and experts, we should give ourselves some time to assimilate the best from the world.
I foresee India gradually overcoming its deficiencies and becoming a developed country like China. Probably by the beginning of the next decade.

Even now we are not in a bad position as regards defence technology. There are some areas where we have to catch up. Especially drone technology. And aero engines. Let this be clear. India is no pushover. We erred in not creating an offensive Corps against China earlier because of a defensive mindset. Against Pakistan we have developed capability to bulldoze them twice over having achieved both qualitative and quantitative superiority. But I believe that the strategic thinking of India against China is changing. We now want to reply to the Chinese in kind. Probably the next major conflict with China will see the Indian Army threatening both Tibet and Xinjiang. If they want Arunachal Pradesh we want Tibet.

Main difference : India is a democraty. Not the china case.
The chinese autocratic government made pressure on its people for its own benefit.

 

[johnq]

From the amount of radar related research paper china has published or the humoungus amount of research paper they've published regarding the Gallium Nitride technology or the amount of high end civilian optics market share they have captured one can easily find out that they have probably the best radar after the americans and they have a good enough DAS. They're not ignorant like us. Their military works very closely with their academia and their civilian companies in a perfect manner unlike us, whose army doesn't even know that the boot they're importing from israel at a premium price are actually made here in india and than exported to israel inorder to escape from the bureaucratic harrasment. Regarding j20s RCS say whatever you want but we have to agree that both the j20 and j31 is a beast with a proper engine. China have already put the 110kn engine on their j31s and here we didn't even bother getting an FTB

Much of what you are saying comes directly from CCP propaganda talking points in their psy ops warfare, so ahem, not very reliable. The J-20 is a paper dlagon with its own issues including being underpowered by weak (for its weight) unreliable 3rd generation engines (copied from Russian engines, but even more unreliable than them) which only last 80 hours before needing overhaul, a radar whose back end programming is still limited mostly to PESA level technology from the 1990s (due to export restrictions on China by both west and Russia), optronics which are also still based off of Russian 1990's level technology (and quite inferior to what is available in the west in terms of range and reliability), and weapons whose seekers are also obsolete in terms of programming, and hence can be jammed. CCP military has its strengths and weaknesses, and while they may be able to show fancy T/R modules in the front end of its radars, it is still lagging in the actual programming of these radars, including weapons radars. Otherwise, why did the CCP military buy SU-35s and S-400, if not to copy their programming? If the CCP military radar technology is as advanced as they claim, there would be no need to purchase SU-35 and the S-400, which have Russian radar technology from 2 decades ago. So please, stop reciting data points from a CCP military propaganda handbook. The Indian military is well aware of CCP military's strengths and weaknesses, and they are not stupid: They know that the Rafale's avionics and sensors are ahead of what is available to the CCP military, and the Rafale is way better in terms of load capacity, engine reliability, and operating from high altitude airfields, while J-20 fails in these regards. As far as J-20s overhyped RCS reduction, the CCP military has still not figured out a foolproof way to hide the radar/radome from being tracked by modern wideband radars even in x band, so there goes your RCS out the window. And there are serious design deficiencies with regards to RCS reduction in the J-20, including canards and their joints which are radar resonance hotspots, among others. The Americans are not stupid for avoiding the canards altogether because they are the leaders in RCS reduction, and well aware of what works and what doesn't. It is also not a trivial thing to create lasting RAM paint which is reliable throughout the flight envelope of a supersonic jet: The Americans have struggled with this for several decades, and the CCP military is several decades behind the Americans.

Much of J-20 is hype without evidence, as part of CCP military's propaganda parade for their psy ops.

Rafale, on the other hand, has proven itself time and again in terms of reliability of its sensors, weapons and engine reliability.

 

[Tridev123]

Main difference : India is a democraty. Not the china case.
The chinese autocratic government made pressure on its people for its own benefit.

It is true that you can enforce decisions without much opposition in an autocracy.
There is nothing like a free press and judiciary in such countries.

Democracy on the other hand functions mostly by consensus. The elected legislature acting as the voice of the people. The people have the choice to overthrow an Government if they are not happy with their policies.

But democracies are more stable in the long run and preferable. I think the majority of Indians would prefer their nation's progress under a democratic setup.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Much of what you are saying comes directly from CCP propaganda talking points in their psy ops warfare, so ahem, not very reliable. The J-20 is a paper dlagon with its own issues including being underpowered by weak (for its weight) unreliable 3rd generation engines (copied from Russian engines, but even more unreliable than them) which only last 80 hours before needing overhaul, a radar whose back end programming is still limited mostly to PESA level technology from the 1990s (due to export restrictions on China by both west and Russia), optronics which are also still based off of Russian 1990's level technology (and quite inferior to what is available in the west in terms of range and reliability), and weapons whose seekers are also obsolete in terms of programming, and hence can be jammed. CCP military has its strengths and weaknesses, and while they may be able to show fancy T/R modules in the front end of its radars, it is still lagging in the actual programming of these radars, including weapons radars. Otherwise, why did the CCP military buy SU-35s and S-400, if not to copy their programming? If the CCP military radar technology is as advanced as they claim, there would be no need to purchase SU-35 and the S-400, which have Russian radar technology from 2 decades ago. So please, stop reciting data points from a CCP military propaganda handbook. The Indian military is well aware of CCP military's strengths and weaknesses, and they are not stupid: They know that the Rafale's avionics and sensors are ahead of what is available to the CCP military, and the Rafale is way better in terms of load capacity, engine reliability, and operating from high altitude airfields, while J-20 fails in these regards. As far as J-20s overhyped RCS reduction, the CCP military has still not figured out a foolproof way to hide the radar/radome from being tracked by modern wideband radars even in x band, so there goes your RCS out the window. And there are serious design deficiencies with regards to RCS reduction in the J-20, including canards and their joints which are radar resonance hotspots, among others. The Americans are not stupid for avoiding the canards altogether because they are the leaders in RCS reduction, and well aware of what works and what doesn't. It is also not a trivial thing to create lasting RAM paint which is reliable throughout the flight envelope of a supersonic jet: The Americans have struggled with this for several decades, and the CCP military is several decades behind the Americans.

Much of J-20 is hype without evidence, as part of CCP military's propaganda parade for their psy ops.

Rafale, on the other hand, has proven itself time and again in terms of reliability of its sensors, weapons and engine reliability.

Overestimating your enemy is a bad thing but underestimate them is an unforgiving crime. Here you're doing the exact same. The things you've mentioned here is called selection bias not a counter argument. The research paper things which i've mentioned here is not a propoganda but a reality. If you want to verify it than Google is your best friend, all their research paper are in public forum. They aren't using any shitty russian PESA technology anymore, they've achieved AESA technology long before the russians. Regarding their purchase of Su35 and S400, well from the very small purchase order i believe they only bought this to evaluate/pitch against their own to gather data. Their S400 purchase order is even smaller than ours even though their engagement area is much much bigger than ours which is a clear indication that they don't need those systems as much as we do. Same as Su35. They're learning from these systems not depend on it. About the optronics, well go buy some dji drone and check their IR quality. They know how to tweak a civilian technology and turn it into a military one. The image you're seeing bellow is the number of patents countries applied in just 2 years regarding Gallium Nitride technology in civilian usage. It's not CCP propoganda anymore, it's a reality

 

[johnq]

Overestimating your enemy is a bad thing but underestimate them is an unforgiving crime. Here you're doing the exact same. The things you've mentioned here is called selection bias not a counter argument. The research paper things which i've mentioned here is not a propoganda but a reality. If you want to verify it than Google is your best friend, all their research paper are in public forum. They aren't using any shitty russian PESA technology anymore, they've achieved AESA technology long before the russians. Regarding their purchase of Su35 and S400, well from the very small purchase order i believe they only bought this to evaluate/pitch against their own to gather data. Their S400 purchase order is even smaller than ours even though their engagement area is much much bigger than ours which is a clear indication that they don't need those systems as much as we do. Same as Su35. They're learning from these systems not depend on it. About the optronics, well go buy some dji drone and check their IR quality. They know how to tweak a civilian technology and turn it into a military one. The image you're seeing bellow is the number of patents countries applied in just 2 years regarding Gallium Nitride technology in civilian usage. It's not CCP propoganda anymore, it's a reality

View attachment 98667

You've totally missed the point I was making. You keep talking about T/R modules and hardware, while I am talking about the software and what the radar can actually do, i.e its brains in terms of capabilities, and that is where the CCP military is lagging. Anyone can put together a bunch of over the counter T/R modules in a radar and claim that it's the best (when it's actually crap in terms of what it can do, and ECM and ECCM), but it's because of western technology restrictions on China that the "programming and capabilities" of such a radar are lacking, including susceptibility to modern western jammers. And that is what the Chinese are trying to steal/copy from Russia through imports such as SU-35 and S-400. If CCP military radar technology was already as advanced as they claimed, then why did they order SU-35s and S-400 from Russia in spite of them having 2 decades old Russian radar technology (downgraded for export to CCP military)? To copy their radar software modes and functions of course. But Russians are no fools and only sell the most downgraded (in terms of software capabilities) technology to CCP military, because they know it will be stolen. That is why I said that in terms of the back-end capabilities, the CCP military is still stuck at the PESA level (modes, etc.) and their radars will be jammed by the more modern AESA jammers on the Rafale. And I have seen images of the so called AESA radar in the J-20, and can tell just by looking at it (primitive antennas, etc.) that it's at least 2 generations behind the Rafale's radar in terms of technology.

As far as copying off the shelf optronics, there is no comparison between what is required on a military fighter jet which has to put up with G forces and be able to function in much harsher conditions (supersonic at high altitudes and putting up with much greater forces) as well as seeing through cloud cover, etc while functioning at all different kinds of conditions. That is why there is civilian grade, and then military grade which has to withstand a lot harsher conditions (Note that this also holds true for radar hardware). Modern western optronics on fighters work over several hundred km distances under tough conditions, while the current state of CCP military grade optronics is still stuck at around 30 km distance, and also breaks down a lot and not as reliable in terms of detection and false positives as the western technology.

Do not go by what is advertised in CCP brochures. Things are not as great as the CCP brochures claim, and it's a part of CCP's propaganda and psy ops warfare used to intimidate the enemy (so that the enemy gives up) in order to win wars without fighting. But outsiders don't realize how much of CCP military's claims are propaganda, hot air and psy ops, to brainwash both Chinese people and foreigners.

PS, a lot of Indian civilians with zero knowledge of CCP military technological limitations fall for CCP propaganda talking points. Then there are CCP bots who parrot CCP propaganda points without thinking.

The Indian military is not stupid, and is well aware of the limitations of the CCP military.

India’s Rafale fighter jets to be inducted today — Here’s how it stacks up against Chinese J-20 | Business Insider India

<ul><li>The Indian Air Force (IAF) will formally induct the newly acquired Rafale fighter jets today at its Ambala air base.</li><li>Here’s a comparison between China’s J-20 and India’s Rafale fighter jets</li><li>Rafale’s engine is better in terms of reliability, longevity and maintainability...

www.businessinsider.in

However, Retired Air Marshal R Nambiar, who tested the Rafale fighter jets for India, said, “Rafale is far superior to the J-20, the Chengdu fighter of China. Even though it’s believed to be a 5th generation fighter, it is probably at best a 3.5 generation aircraft.

I would rather trust the word of an IAF air marshal who has seen the IAF intelligence reports on the J-20 as opposed to someone who has been drinking the CCP military propaganda koolaid, and comes with claims about GAN T/R modules and civilian optronics without any understanding of what is required in fighter sensors and avionics.

 

[BON PLAN]

The J-20 is a paper dlagon with its own issues including being underpowered by weak (for its weight) unreliable 3rd generation engines (copied from Russian engines, but even more unreliable than them) which only last 80 hours before needing overhaul, a radar whose back end programming is still limited mostly to PESA level technology from the 1990s (due to export restrictions on China by both west and Russia), optronics which are also still based off of Russian 1990's level technology (and quite inferior to what is available in the west in terms of range and reliability

I fully agree.

 

[Marlion]

Your side has a lot of sense into it. I am impressed. I also agree that the Indian military is not stupid. No military is stupid and no one should ever belittle them. Their trainings and their knowledge is unmatched and it makes them special.

 

[Rohan Naik]

1000 pages and yet we are “Knowing our Rafale” .
View attachment 98462

Me - LCA
Neighbour's son - Rafale
My parents - Rafale topped the exams, Rafale stood first, Rafale scored highest, Rafale .... Rafale.... Rafale...
Me to my parents - am I your son, or Rafale topped there also??

 

[WolfPack86]

Greece want to equip its Rafale with Indian BrahMos
According to Greek media, The defense cooperation between Greece and India is a shining field of glory. Greece and India are now coming even closer, after the presence of the Indian Foreign Minister in Athens. At the same time, Turkey has established an axis with Pakistan and is challenging India in Kashmir.

Turkey is becoming a ruthless Islamic country, as is Pakistan, while Islamabad is helping Turkey with its nuclear program, as Erdogan’s goal is to acquire nuclear weapons. Greece and India have many things that unite them, while there are ties from the time of Alexander the Great.

According to Greek media, Athens and Delhi have two common enemies, Turkey and Pakistan. That is why Indian and Greece need to work together in the field of information exchange and in the field of defense. India is producing weapons systems that could change the course of things.

One of these Indian defense products is the BrahMos Cruise Missile with a range of 290 km(export version) and a speed of 3.5 Mach, which can equip Rafale aircraft. While the latest land-based Brahmos missile rage is 600km.

The BrahMos-A is a modified air-launched variant of the missile with a range of 500 km which can be launched from a Sukhoi Su-30MKI as a standoff weapon. To reduce the missile’s weight to 2.55 tons, many modifications were made like using a smaller booster, adding fins for airborne stability after launch, and relocating the connector.

Greece want to equip its Rafale with Indian BrahMos

According to Greek media, The defense cooperation between Greece and India is a shining field of glory. Greece and India are now

www.defenceaviationpost.com

 

[BON PLAN]

Greece want to equip its Rafale with Indian BrahMos
According to Greek media, The defense cooperation between Greece and India is a shining field of glory. Greece and India are now coming even closer, after the presence of the Indian Foreign Minister in Athens. At the same time, Turkey has established an axis with Pakistan and is challenging India in Kashmir.

Turkey is becoming a ruthless Islamic country, as is Pakistan, while Islamabad is helping Turkey with its nuclear program, as Erdogan’s goal is to acquire nuclear weapons. Greece and India have many things that unite them, while there are ties from the time of Alexander the Great.

According to Greek media, Athens and Delhi have two common enemies, Turkey and Pakistan. That is why Indian and Greece need to work together in the field of information exchange and in the field of defense. India is producing weapons systems that could change the course of things.

One of these Indian defense products is the BrahMos Cruise Missile with a range of 290 km(export version) and a speed of 3.5 Mach, which can equip Rafale aircraft. While the latest land-based Brahmos missile rage is 600km.

The BrahMos-A is a modified air-launched variant of the missile with a range of 500 km which can be launched from a Sukhoi Su-30MKI as a standoff weapon. To reduce the missile’s weight to 2.55 tons, many modifications were made like using a smaller booster, adding fins for airborne stability after launch, and relocating the connector.

Greece want to equip its Rafale with Indian BrahMos

According to Greek media, The defense cooperation between Greece and India is a shining field of glory. Greece and India are now

www.defenceaviationpost.com

A good idea.
I hope France to follow, with french made seeker.

 

[prateikf]

Perhaps SCALP would be the more logical choice.

 

[sorcerer]

IAF's second Rafale squadron to get operational by July 26


New Delhi: The Indian Air Force (IAF) will get a major boost along the China border in the northeast as the force would be making its second Rafale fighter aircraft squadron operational by July 26.


The Rafale aircraft which have already arrived in Ambala would start ferrying to the Hashimara air base in next few days and the squadron would get operational by July 26, government sources told ANI here.

IAF's second Rafale squadron to get operational by July 26

The Air Force has received around 25 aircraft from France and more are expected to be delivered in the next few months out of the 36 planes that India had ordered in 2016.

www.timesnownews.com

 

[BON PLAN]

Perhaps SCALP would be the more logical choice.

SCALP is subsonic. Only made for anti bunker mission. And already in the greek arsenal.
Brahmos is at least a mach 2.7 missile. Against a warship it is a deadly missile.

 

[Immanuel]

First we need to figure out mouting the Brahmos-A on the Rafale locally, not sure that will happen since that would require full access to Brahmos tech to French engineers and we don't have Rafale source codes. It's a pipe dream. Also, Russia wouldn't allow this.

 

[BON PLAN]

First we need to figure out mouting the Brahmos-A on the Rafale locally, not sure that will happen since that would require full access to Brahmos tech to French engineers and we don't have Rafale source codes. It's a pipe dream. Also, Russia wouldn't allow this.

It was intended in the GtoG agreement that some non french weapons will be integrated on indian Rafale.
The first known is SPICE israeli bomb.
The second seemed to be ASTRA air to air missile.
Why not Brahmos? It depends mainly of the intelectual properties rights on this missile (I know nothing on that about Brahmos).

 

[Immanuel]

It was intended in the GtoG agreement that some non french weapons will be integrated on indian Rafale.
The first known is SPICE israeli bomb.
The second seemed to be ASTRA air to air missile.
Why not Brahmos? It depends mainly of the intelectual properties rights on this missile (I know nothing on that about Brahmos).

Brahmos is complex, sophisticated missile that would also require that Russians have access to the Rafale's AESA and Spectra suites for Active or passive launch authority, would the French allow that? Regardless of what anyone else says, Brahmos is JV between Indian and Russia. Russia would be intimately involved in any such process, much like Israeli's would be involved in Spice integration.

Not happening till it's really happening, I doubt it but time will tell.

 

[MirageBlue]

First we need to figure out mouting the Brahmos-A on the Rafale locally, not sure that will happen since that would require full access to Brahmos tech to French engineers and we don't have Rafale source codes. It's a pipe dream. Also, Russia wouldn't allow this.

Yup, very very unlikely to happen. The Brahmos integration with the Su-30MKI was done in-house by HAL after the Russians asked for $250 million or INR 1300 crores to do it. HAL did it for INR 80 crores..lol.

Just shows how cost effective indigenous technological integrations with a home-grown OEM can be versus going to a foreign OEM, even if it's Russian which traditionally used to be a lot cheaper and affordable..can't imagine how much Dassault will ask for integration of Brahmos with Rafale..probably USD 0.5 billion.

The inside story of on how Brahmos missile got integrated with Su-30MKI