Kaveri Engine

[ersakthivel]

There are multiple generations of Single Crystal blade technology. Mostly nickel based superalloys are preferred for high temperature high pressure environments such as jet engines. Last time I checked there were already 5 or 6 generations of superalloys for making turbine blades, so the SC blade technology which we might have might not be the same SC technology that we need.

OK , for a engine TWR of more than 10 like the latest eurojet engines and american engines we don't have the SCB tech,

The as per the article the pilot believes we got this SCB under TOT,

So if at all it is true we must have got t under the SU-30 MKI deal for making AL series of engines,

Even if transferred it would have been transferred with a caveat that this tech should not be used for any other engine or due to the fact that we could have been very close to developing the tech by ourselves.

so , if the article is true , we have SCB tech for AL -31 engine TWR levels. But I really doubt whether any nation will transfer such a sensitive tech, considering the russians helped us in Arihant , Brahmos programs by transfering many sensitive techs , we can not outrightly deny this report as well,

 

[ersakthivel]

i think he is speculating................ Such tech is not for sale by any means.

Sir, the guy is a very senior person at HAl. So it may not be simple speculation without substance is my idea. Any way there is no official confirmation of this piece of news.

 

[Twinblade]

Sir, the guy is a very senior person at HAl. So it may not be simple speculation without substance is my idea. Any way there is no official confirmation of this piece of news.

^^ AL-31 turbine rotor disc with Al-31 SCB made by HAL.

HAL received technology for single crystal blades for Al-31. That technology + inherited testing procedures + experience + a bit of indigenous research by DMRL and GTRE = SCB of Kaveri engine (made by HAL).

^^ From left to right : Equiaxed blade, Directionally solidified blade, Single Crystal blade.

Single crystal blades made by HAL for Kaveri.

 

[ersakthivel]

^^ AL-31 turbine rotor disc with Al-31 SCB made by HAL.

HAL received technology for single crystal blades for Al-31. That technology + inherited testing procedures + experience + a bit of indigenous research by DMRL and GTRE = SCB of Kaveri engine (made by HAL).

^^ From left to right : Equiaxed blade, Directionally solidified blade, Single Crystal blade.

Single crystal blades made by HAL for Kaveri.

So we have the SCB tech for an engine TWR close to 7

 

[Twinblade]

So we have the SCB tech for an engine TWR close to 7

We have SCB technology. We don't have good enough SCB technology, get it ?

 

[sayareakd]

We have SCB technology. We don't have good enough SCB technology, get it ?

Lets me put it in better way, we have the SCB tech, but it is not what we wanted for our fighter plane. In due time we will have our own engine which will give required thrust. Already money have been pumped in engine project and it will be matter of time.

 

[bennedose]

As per the info I got at Aero India we have developed single crystal blades aside from what we got from Russia with Su 30.

Here is how it is done. Ceramic cores are first made and blades are grown around the cores. The cores are later dissolved away leaving an internal structure that allows cooling.
Image shows ceramic cores

The squiggly bits are electrodes that are removed from the finished blade

Blurred close up shows hollow internal structure of blade created by preformed ceramic core that was removed

 

[ersakthivel]

As per the info I got at Aero India we have developed single crystal blades aside from what we got from Russia with Su 30.

Here is how it is done. Ceramic cores are first made and blades are grown around the cores. The cores are later dissolved away leaving an internal structure that allows cooling.
Image shows ceramic cores

The squiggly bits are electrodes that are removed from the finished blade

Blurred close up shows hollow internal structure of blade created by preformed ceramic core that was removed

seems logical, since we are yet to make a single AL-31 engines in the country, it is hard to believe that Russians gave it to us by the time of Aeroindia.

Considering we are yet to receive the gun barrel and armor tech for something as mundane as T-90 , it will be really surprising if the Indian SCB tech was developed with what the russians offered for AL-31.

other than the blade every other item of AL_31 would be produced and these blades will be classified as raw materials sent from russia in the agreement is my guess,

 

[ersakthivel]

We have SCB technology. We don't have good enough SCB technology, get it ?

is the blades of k-9 made in India?

 

[sayareakd]

is the blades of k-9 made in India?

yeah check the GTRE DRDO facilities

DRDO

 

[Twinblade]

seems logical, since we are yet to make a single AL-31 engines in the country, it is hard to believe that Russians gave it to us by the time of Aeroindia.

Considering we are yet to receive the gun barrel and armor tech for something as mundane as T-90 , it will be really surprising if the Indian SCB tech was developed with what the russians offered for AL-31.

other than the blade every other item of AL_31 would be produced and these blades will be classified as raw materials sent from russia in the agreement is my guess,

You have much to learn.

 

[arkem8]

You have much to learn.

Is this Indian SCB tech derived from the Kaveri or is it down to Russian TOT??

 

[ersakthivel]

You have much to learn.

i know all this.

But the point to be clarified is who gave this tech to HAL?

Was it the Russians who gave this tech to HAL as part of the SU-30 MKI deal

or

Did the tech was developed by the allied labs of GTRE for kaveri and then it reached the HAL?

The reason for this question is kaveri engine is a long running program and it predates the Al-31 .

read post no-827 in this page.

 

[Twinblade]

Is this Indian SCB tech derived from the Kaveri or is it down to Russian TOT??

There are three aspects to SCB tech
- Material : Exotic superalloys that withstand extremely high temperature and maintain mechanical properties.
- Design: Cooling is absolutely necessary as the jet fuel burn at temperatures higher than the melting point of the super alloy.

- Manufacturing: Proper casting, forging, machining, quality checks, the whole shebang.

A shortcoming in either of these will lead to warping of turbine blades, or "throwing" them away. Kaveri program for a very long time ran on imported blades from Snecma.
GTRE came up with design requirements which were revised based on material technology by DMRL
DMRL came up with with material technology, made SCB for Kaveri prototypes as pilot project and transferred it's production standards and processes to HAL.
HAL received the capability to manufacture SCB from Russia for AL-31. Plant machinery, training for workers, quality checks at every stage of manufacturing, capabilities that do not come overnight. HAL also made a few production prototypes of Kaveri HPT's single crystal blade.

Currently our SCB technologies are very limited, we are both restricted by our material technology in superalloys and corresponding design restrictions due to which the engine is forced to operate at a lower temperature than what was originally intended. We haven't even come to mass production issues yet, hopefully the good experience gained by making AL-31 at decent quality will make producing Kaveri less painful than what it might otherwise have been.

i know all this.

Says the guy who believes that HAL imports single crystal blades under the garb of raw materials under some secret 'agreement' because ze Russians take all our monnies and never give ze technologies to ze innocent Yindians and our DPSU and defence lab guys poop out solid single crystal gold bars.

But the point to be clarified is who gave this tech to HAL?

Was it the Russians who gave this tech to HAL as part of the SU-30 MKI deal

or

Did the tech was developed by the allied labs of GTRE for kaveri and then it reached the HAL?

The reason for this question is kaveri engine is a long running program and it predates the Al-31 .

read post no-827 in this page.

You know it all don't you, let me frame your version of events because sooner or later you will lead the thread down that line:-

"Ze Russians never gave us SCB tech, itz our hard working guys at DMRL and GTRE that developed the SCB tech indigenously and gave it to the HAL so that they can produce the AL-31 locally. The domestic SCB is 20% cheaper, 40% lighter, 60% more awesome and boosts the SFC by 100%. Kaveri engine also has 1000 mm RHA equivalent of armour between the LP compressor and HPT. Here, look at a human head stuck on a pike by the aboriginal people of Andaman islands. I am going to use its eyeballs as reference to measure the size of crystals in this SCB blade."

 

[p2prada]

"Ze Russians never gave us SCB tech, itz our hard working guys at DMRL and GTRE that developed the SCB tech indigenously and gave it to the HAL so that they can produce the AL-31 locally. The domestic SCB is 20% cheaper, 40% lighter, 60% more awesome and boosts the SFC by 100%. Kaveri engine also has 1000 mm RHA equivalent of armour between the LP compressor and HPT. Here, look at a human head stuck on a pike by the aboriginal people of Andaman islands. I am going to use its eyeballs as reference to measure the size of crystals in this SCB blade."

Actually, I have excellent sources who claim the Elves made it.

Money for the project came from leprechaun gold that we siphoned off from pirates in the 17th century.

GTRE also designed the core of the earth some years ago, apparently.

The rest, as they say, is history.

 

[ersakthivel]

There are three aspects to SCB tech
- Material : Exotic superalloys that withstand extremely high temperature and maintain mechanical properties.
- Design: Cooling is absolutely necessary as the jet fuel burn at temperatures higher than the melting point of the super alloy.

- Manufacturing: Proper casting, forging, machining, quality checks, the whole shebang.

A shortcoming in either of these will lead to warping of turbine blades, or "throwing" them away. Kaveri program for a very long time ran on imported blades from Snecma.
GTRE came up with design requirements which were revised based on material technology by DMRL
DMRL came up with with material technology, made SCB for Kaveri prototypes as pilot project and transferred it's production standards and processes to HAL.
HAL received the capability to manufacture SCB from Russia for AL-31. Plant machinery, training for workers, quality checks at every stage of manufacturing, capabilities that do not come overnight. HAL also made a few production prototypes of Kaveri HPT's single crystal blade.

Currently our SCB technologies are very limited, we are both restricted by our material technology in superalloys and corresponding design restrictions due to which the engine is forced to operate at a lower temperature than what was originally intended. We haven't even come to mass production issues yet, hopefully the good experience gained by making AL-31 at decent quality will make producing Kaveri less painful than what it might otherwise have been.



Says the guy who believes that HAL imports single crystal blades under the garb of raw materials under some secret 'agreement' because ze Russians take all our monnies and never give ze technologies to ze innocent Yindians and our DPSU and defence lab guys poop out solid single crystal gold bars.



You know it all don't you, let me frame your version of events because sooner or later you will lead the thread down that line:-

"Ze Russians never gave us SCB tech, itz our hard working guys at DMRL and GTRE that developed the SCB tech indigenously and gave it to the HAL so that they can produce the AL-31 locally. The domestic SCB is 20% cheaper, 40% lighter, 60% more awesome and boosts the SFC by 100%. Kaveri engine also has 1000 mm RHA equivalent of armour between the LP compressor and HPT. Here, look at a human head stuck on a pike by the aboriginal people of Andaman islands. I am going to use its eyeballs as reference to measure the size of crystals in this SCB blade."

Budhead, as usual you are side stepping the issue with lot of garbage,

what I asked was a simple question, to expose your fraud

You have got no idea about the origin of the tech and pooping here all by yourself.

Thats what crooks do once caught. Cutting and pasting some technical stuff from some PDF as if they know all, when in effect they don't know a shit about what they are talking. You were unable to comprehend what a 15 year old school going kid can understand , namely a circle appearing an oval when not in the same horizontal line of sight as the eye in the Arjun MBT thread

Now you are showing off your fake Phd skills by explaining the SCB tech!!!!!!!!!

Also with your fake scientific knowledge can you inform us all who made the engine blades of all the Kaveri engines till K-9 ?

HAL with tech under TOT from russia or Russians all by themselves or GTRE in it's lab?

Go buy a geometry box first.

We have SCB technology. We don't have good enough SCB technology, get it ?

What do you mean by the above statement?

If HAL has the SCB tech from Russians under Su-30 MKI TOT deal , do you mean to say this tech was not good enough ?
So the AL-31 SCB tech is not good enough?

I know you won't be showing your face for some time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Get Lost Looser .

 

[ersakthivel]

Actually, I have excellent sources who claim the Elves made it.

Money for the project came from leprechaun gold that we siphoned off from pirates in the 17th century.

GTRE also designed the core of the earth some years ago, apparently.

The rest, as they say, is history.

You are already history in LCA Tejas thread is what is known to every one.

Now you can not tom tom your air battle skills with statements like a couple of upgraded Mig-21 bisons can knock down squadron of tejas, So you are giving fake history geography lessons here.

 

[rvjpheonix]

There are three aspects to SCB tech
- Material : Exotic superalloys that withstand extremely high temperature and maintain mechanical properties.
- Design: Cooling is absolutely necessary as the jet fuel burn at temperatures higher than the melting point of the super alloy.

- Manufacturing: Proper casting, forging, machining, quality checks, the whole shebang.

A shortcoming in either of these will lead to warping of turbine blades, or "throwing" them away. Kaveri program for a very long time ran on imported blades from Snecma.
GTRE came up with design requirements which were revised based on material technology by DMRL
DMRL came up with with material technology, made SCB for Kaveri prototypes as pilot project and transferred it's production standards and processes to HAL.
HAL received the capability to manufacture SCB from Russia for AL-31. Plant machinery, training for workers, quality checks at every stage of manufacturing, capabilities that do not come overnight. HAL also made a few production prototypes of Kaveri HPT's single crystal blade.

Currently our SCB technologies are very limited, we are both restricted by our material technology in superalloys and corresponding design restrictions due to which the engine is forced to operate at a lower temperature than what was originally intended. We haven't even come to mass production issues yet, hopefully the good experience gained by making AL-31 at decent quality will make producing Kaveri less painful than what it might otherwise have been.



Says the guy who believes that HAL imports single crystal blades under the garb of raw materials under some secret 'agreement' because ze Russians take all our monnies and never give ze technologies to ze innocent Yindians and our DPSU and defence lab guys poop out solid single crystal gold bars.



You know it all don't you, let me frame your version of events because sooner or later you will lead the thread down that line:-

"Ze Russians never gave us SCB tech, itz our hard working guys at DMRL and GTRE that developed the SCB tech indigenously and gave it to the HAL so that they can produce the AL-31 locally. The domestic SCB is 20% cheaper, 40% lighter, 60% more awesome and boosts the SFC by 100%. Kaveri engine also has 1000 mm RHA equivalent of armour between the LP compressor and HPT. Here, look at a human head stuck on a pike by the aboriginal people of Andaman islands. I am going to use its eyeballs as reference to measure the size of crystals in this SCB blade."

As far as I know the gtre hadn't used the scb tech in the k9 as upto the aero india presentation. We were still using the equiaxed blade tech. Also I wanted to ask when did snecma provide us with blades for kaveri? If so there wouldn't have been a problem if we could import the blades and and keep the rest of the design increasing or core temp. Also are the present blades by GTRE in its labs or HAL?

 

[Twinblade]

As far as I know the gtre hadn't used the scb tech in the k9 as upto the aero india presentation. We were still using the equiaxed blade tech. Also I wanted to ask when did snecma provide us with blades for kaveri? If so there wouldn't have been a problem if we could import the blades and and keep the rest of the design increasing or core temp. Also are the present blades by GTRE in its labs or HAL?

The blade import from Snecma happened way back in early 2000s. DMRL later on came up with SCB tech and made the SCB for Kaveri prototypes at small scale.
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/TFApril2011.pdf
They later on transferred this technology to HAL to enable them to mass produce Kaveri when the orders are given.

Also with your fake scientific knowledge can you inform us all who made the engine blades of all the Kaveri engines till K-9 ?

HAL with tech under TOT from russia or Russians all by themselves or GTRE in it's lab?

Already answered in my earlier post, will repost it for his highness who hadeth been blinded by his internet rage of being proven wrong.

GTRE came up with design requirements which were revised based on material technology by DMRL
DMRL came up with with material technology, made SCB for Kaveri prototypes as pilot project and transferred it's production standards and processes to HAL.
HAL received the capability to manufacture SCB from Russia for AL-31. Plant machinery, training for workers, quality checks at every stage of manufacturing, capabilities that do not come overnight. HAL also made a few production prototypes of Kaveri HPT's single crystal blade.

We have SCB technology. We don't have good enough SCB technology, get it ?

What do you mean by the above statement?

Our single crystal turbine blades are getting warped and distorted at 1600 degree Celcius. This is way lower than engines that use SCB, like AL-31 which operates at 1783 degrees. Obviously we are not good enough yet.

If HAL has the SCB tech from Russians under Su-30 MKI TOT deal , do you mean to say this tech was not good enough ?
So the AL-31 SCB tech is not good enough?

HAL has learnt enough by manufacturing AL-31 to be able to handle Kaveri production with less teething troubles. Also manufacturing is only one side of the triangle, till we can get our material technology and design abilities in line, we won't be self dependent in engines. It is yet to be seen if HAL would be able to keep up the quality of its SCB with subsequent generations of materials and design.

Budhead, as usual you are side stepping the issue with lot of garbage,

If you want to abuse me, do it properly. It's spelled butthead Although you can call me a Budhead if you want to

Get Lost Looser .

Why do you want me to get looser , I like being wound up
Learn to spell loser you loser

 

[ersakthivel]

The blade import from Snecma happened way back in early 2000s. DMRL later on came up with SCB tech and made the SCB for Kaveri prototypes at small scale.
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/TFApril2011.pdf
They later on transferred this technology to HAL to enable them to mass produce Kaveri when the orders are given.




Already answered in my earlier post, will repost it for his highness who hadeth been blinded by his internet rage of being proven wrong.





Our single crystal turbine blades are getting warped and distorted at 1600 degree Celcius. This is way lower than engines that use SCB, like AL-31 which operates at 1783 degrees. Obviously we are not good enough yet.




HAL has learnt enough by manufacturing AL-31 to be able to handle Kaveri production with less teething troubles. Also manufacturing is only one side of the triangle, till we can get our material technology and design abilities in line, we won't be self dependent in engines. It is yet to be seen if HAL would be able to keep up the quality of its SCB with subsequent generations of materials and design.




If you want to abuse me, do it properly. It's spelled butthead Although you can call me a Budhead if you want to


Why do you want me to get looser , I like being wound up
Learn to spell loser you loser

Is it anywhere mentioned in the above PDF whether this tech was supplied to HAL by DRML or Russians under AL-31 TOT contract. NOWHERE.

See many parts like mission computer and the composite airframe parts on the first locally made SU-30 MKI are not made with tech supplied by Russians.

It would be really surprising that the russians who are selling thousands of AL-31 series to china and refused to transfer this tech to them have done so with India,

And the radars of SU-30 MKI also don't come under the TOT to make them here raw material stage.

SO there is no reason to naively believe that the Russians have transferred SCB tech to HAL. giving testing procedure is one thing and revealing the metallurgy of SCB with how to make it manuals is something very different.

SO When radars don't come under the total TOT to make SU-30 MKI from raw material stage , SCB too certainly won't come under it .

A couple of guys singing their own cuckoo songs on this subject doesnot mean a valid proof of HAL having incvested with SCB tech by Russians..

Total TOT BS hides more than it reveals , Unless you give a PDF proof for HAL made SCB blades fitted in HAL made Al-31 engines , there is no use in this TOT to make SCB from raw material stage crap.

Even the T-90 was made with supposed total TOT from raw material stage in Avadi, But it has kanchan Armor and it's gun is made from Arjun Gun barrel tech,

So believing guys like you is not worth the while .

I have seen you type Livefist in place of ironfist and later attributing those typos to sleep or alcohol ,

So don't act like the principal of English county public school here.

OK , for correcting the typo in loser.

Now buy a geometry box , You Loser.

Correct I suppose.