Kaveri Engine

[Screambowl]

Here we are talking only about Turbo-fan jet engine which is of same design for civilian as well as military use. Only difference is military engine may add an after-burner for additional thrust at the cost of fuel economy and noise. Nozzle vectoring may be another one.

Engine have multiple cooling systems. Like air flow, or at some parts engine oil. etc..

Here we are talking only about Turbo-fan jet engine which is of same design for civilian as well as military use. Only difference is military engine may add an after-burner for additional thrust at the cost of fuel economy and noise. Nozzle vectoring may be another one.


We are not talking about cooling chambers in jet engine which in any case is done by air. We are talking about cooling lubes. Lubes are required for the bearings attaching shaft to the rotating blades.

you asked about, cooling down the jet engine. Fuel cannot be used for this as it's flash point is very low. Oil, yes , but not the complete engine.

The Lube oil is then cooled either by fuel to a lower temperature or by air. In jet engines in airliners, it is cooled by both as fuel - oil coolers is close to bypass duct.

 

[sasum]

Engine have multiple cooling systems. Like air flow, or at some parts engine oil. etc..
you asked about, cooling down the jet engine. Fuel cannot be used for this as it's flash point is very low. Oil, yes , but not the complete engine.

The Lube oil is then cooled either by fuel to a lower temperature or by air. In jet engines in airliners, it is cooled by both as fuel - oil coolers is close to bypass duct.

You don't even know what you are talking about and hope to justify one non-sense with another.

 

[Screambowl]

You don't even know what you are talking about and hope to justify one non-sense with another.

read it again and don't be a chut*ya all the time ..

Engine have multiple cooling systems. Like air flow, or at some parts engine oil. etc..
you asked about, cooling down the jet engine. Fuel cannot be used for this as it's flash point is very low. Oil, yes , but not the complete engine.

The Lube oil is then cooled either by fuel to a lower temperature or by air. In jet engines in airliners, it is cooled by both as fuel - oil coolers is close to bypass duct.

 

[sasum]

Engine have multiple cooling systems. Like air flow, or at some parts engine oil. etc..
you asked about, cooling down the jet engine. Fuel cannot be used for this as it's flash point is very low. Oil, yes , but not the complete engine

Idiot !! Engine oil is for lubricating the moving parts (bearings), not for cooling engine.

 

[Screambowl]

Idiot !! Engine oil is for lubricating the moving parts (bearings), not for cooling engine.
View attachment 8061

lubricating oil is a partial coolant too which extracts heat from bearings and other parts that's why it is channelized from fuel-oil heat exchanger and then air oil heat exchanger.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://doc.assofond.it/13th_World_C.../lectures/TechnicalEngineeringLecture/T17.pdf

A very useful link to DMRL's SCB/DS & BLISK effort plucked from BR, which says that DMRL has developed SCB tech that can withstand 100 deg C more temp than the currently imported DS blades for Kaveri jet engine effort.

And it is in the process of passing on its breakthrough tech to indian private firms.

What is interesting is that the investment casting tech used world over in Single Crystal Blades originated from india , with a fine piece of Harrappan dancing girl in 3500 BC!!!

 

[Paras.Sharma]

Good info on Kaveri and Nice Explanation of Jet engine technology..

http://www.defencenews.in/article/The-Dawn-of-Jet-Engine-indigenization-in-India--KAVERI-3836

 

[tejas warrior]

Indigenous aero engine stays on radar, says DRDO official

K. Tamilmani
The last word may not have been said about an indigenous aero engine although the first effort, the Kaveri engine, didn't make it to powering the LCA light fighter plane.

New efforts, tweaks and hopefully a Rs. 2,600-crore grant are being explored to salvage 25 years of work and resources of over Rs. 2,000 crore spent on the Kaveri and use the engine’s derivatives in unmanned strategic projects of the future - probably with a different name.

‘Ghatak’

Already its spinoff version has been identified as the engine for ‘Ghatak’, a tentatively named future unmanned combat aircraft on which early studies have been taken up at two aeronautical labs based in Bengaluru.

“There is potential for derivatives of the Kaveri engine to be used for strategic purposes and other programmes. For anything in future that requires a 50-kilo-Newton engine [& its multiples,] here is a readily available one. Only a few engineering adaptations are required,” said K.Tamilmani, Director-General of DRDO’s Aeronautical Systems, who demits office on May 31 after about three years in the post.

The military research establishment has not given up the quest for a potential Indian powerplant for future military systems, he indicated.

‘A critical need’


Asked if a ‘flying’ Indian engine cannot be ruled out in the future, Dr. Tamilmani told The Hinduthe development of aero engine technology and product was long identified as a critical need in defence research.

“The engine should be ours one day. It will, should happen, it may take time. Its technology development needs focus. The engine is also top priority for defining the shape of any aeroplane design and must be frozen first.”

Of the 10 DRDO labs in Bengaluru, the aeronautics cluster of four is predominant.

It includes the Gas Turbine Research Establishment that has worked on the Kaveri since the mid-1980s; and the Aeronautical Development Establishment that is into drones.


New efforts to build on 25 years of work on Kaveri, for UCAVs, etc.

 

[kstriya]

As per Dr. Tamilmani India should have our own jet engine and that I hope will be Kaveri K10 in LCA sooner or later, might be when the first engine comes to replacement in 2025...

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

IIT-Madras develops warning system for gas turbines

Prof R I Sujith and his student Vishnu working on a turbulent combustor at the IIT Madras laboratory | Express

CHENNAI: A group of engineers at the Indian Institute of Technology Madras (IIT-M) has cracked the elusive secret code of thermoacoustic instability, a problem that gas turbine and aerospace industry has been grappling with for decades, incurring losses to the tune of $1 billion annually. The team has developed a host of precursors, dubbed as the world’s first early warning system for gas turbine power plants and jet engines.

The technology has found interest among some of the major players in the sector, including the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and our own Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).

“We are exploring the process of working together with the ISRO. However, before we test the technology in aerospace sector, it will be tried first with ground-based engines like gas turbine power plants. We are now in talks with major gas turbine companies such as Ansaldo Energia, General Electric and Siemens to test the technology with real data. It needs lots of testing to root out any lacuna such as triggering of false alarms,” Prof R I Sujith of the Department of Aerospace Engineering in IIT-M told Express. A key person behind the project, he recently visited NASA in this regard.

Prof Sujith said no technology is available at present to help predict an impending instability in turbines.

The companies use pressure transducers to measure pressure fluctuations. After reaching the threshold point, the automatic controllers kick-in and shut down the engines. Once the turbines are shut, it takes at least an hour to restart - a situation that is cumbersome and costly.

C

ontracts between the turbine manufacturers and power companies often require the manufacturers to bear the cost of such shutdowns and penalties incurred.


The situation is more critical when such instabilities arise in the engine of an aircraft or rocket, where the option to shut down the engine mid-air does not exist and severe vibrations or breakage of the engine can prove to be fatal. For such engines, extensive tests have to be run on-ground. However, a substantial number of these engines, especially for rockets, are destroyed while testing. “This is where our technology brings the radical change that industry has been craving for years. We can give several minutes of warning time, may be up to 20 minutes, for a power plant to take evasive action. For liquid rocket engines, it would probably be a few seconds, enough to stabilise the engine,” he said.

However, Prof Sujith said it would take at least two to three years for the technology to develop into a full-fledged early warning system and for industrial consumption. The technology’s robustness and protocols have to be established in the real scenario, which will take some time. “The companies will first provide historical data of thermoacoustic instabilities. Using the technology, we will try and predict the impending instabilities. This will give a tight understanding of the warning time and threshold limits,” he said.

“We can also customise the system, according to the industry specifications. But we have not reached that stage yet,” he said.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/cit...or-gas-turbines/2016/06/19/article3489200.ece

 

[Prashant12]

France offers EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project

NEW DELHI:France has offered to invest EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, proposing a joint development plan that could see the stalled 'Kaveri' gas turbine powering indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020.

The proposal is to use offset credits that would come from the planned Rafale fighter jet deal to revive the indigenous jet engine project, people involved in talks between the Indian defence ministry, the Defence Research & Development Organisation and French companies told ET.

Foreign arms companies that sell equipment to India are mandated to invest a portion of the contract cost in the country's defence and aerospace industry. In the case of the Rafale deal, which India and France are negotiating, the offset obligation is 50% of the cost, which would translate to over EUR 3 billion.

Sources said that since January, several rounds of discussions have taken place between Indian authorities and French company Safran, which developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters.

French experts who assessed the Kaveri engine — which was more or less abandoned for aviation use in 2014 due to shortcomings on power —indicated that 25-30% more work would be needed to make it flight-worthy.

According to the deal being offered, India would not need to spend any more developmental money on the project and Safran would take on the investment, committing to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months. The proposal is to integrate the upgraded Kaveri with the Mk 1 A version of the Light Combat Aircraft by 2020.

The air force is committed to buying at least 80 of the LCA Mk 1 A fighters that will meet higher technical requirements than the version inducted this year. It is currently powered by GE 404 engines.

"The proposal is to have the Kaveri ready for the next version of the LCA that would then boast of an indigenous engine as well. The French are confident that this can be done and are willing to put in money into the project," a person involved in the discussion said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...t-jet-engine-project/articleshow/53036894.cms

 

[tejas warrior]

France offers EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project

NEW DELHI:France has offered to invest EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, proposing a joint development plan that could see the stalled 'Kaveri' gas turbine powering indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020.

The proposal is to use offset credits that would come from the planned Rafale fighter jet deal to revive the indigenous jet engine project, people involved in talks between the Indian defence ministry, the Defence Research & Development Organisation and French companies told ET.

Foreign arms companies that sell equipment to India are mandated to invest a portion of the contract cost in the country's defence and aerospace industry. In the case of the Rafale deal, which India and France are negotiating, the offset obligation is 50% of the cost, which would translate to over EUR 3 billion.

Sources said that since January, several rounds of discussions have taken place between Indian authorities and French company Safran, which developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters.

French experts who assessed the Kaveri engine — which was more or less abandoned for aviation use in 2014 due to shortcomings on power —indicated that 25-30% more work would be needed to make it flight-worthy.

According to the deal being offered, India would not need to spend any more developmental money on the project and Safran would take on the investment, committing to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months. The proposal is to integrate the upgraded Kaveri with the Mk 1 A version of the Light Combat Aircraft by 2020.

The air force is committed to buying at least 80 of the LCA Mk 1 A fighters that will meet higher technical requirements than the version inducted this year. It is currently powered by GE 404 engines.

"The proposal is to have the Kaveri ready for the next version of the LCA that would then boast of an indigenous engine as well. The French are confident that this can be done and are willing to put in money into the project," a person involved in the discussion said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...t-jet-engine-project/articleshow/53036894.cms

Interesting.. Can't say if RM Manohar Parrikar is using this to get a Deal on GE 414 engine. But even if this Kaveri get working in 1B$, please get it.

 

[Berkut]

To all the gurus:
Why is it so hard to manufacture a jet engine? Is it a metallurgy challenge or some other engineering challenge or does it boil down to the fact that India doesn't have the expertise? (Hard to believe that India won't have the expertise as we surely can put multiple satellites into orbit)

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Interesting.. Can't say if RM Manohar Parrikar is using this to get a Deal on GE 414 engine. But even if this Kaveri get working in 1B$, please get it.

We already have a JV engine for helicopter with France which works very well and further gave us expertise to build our own one.
Same must happen to Aircraft engine. :biggrin2:

 

[BON PLAN]

To all the gurus:
Why is it so hard to manufacture a jet engine? Is it a metallurgy challenge or some other engineering challenge or does it boil down to the fact that India doesn't have the expertise? (Hard to believe that India won't have the expertise as we surely can put multiple satellites into orbit)

To date, there are only 5 military engine producer in the world : 2 US (P&W, GE), 1 GB (RR), 1 french (Snecma, now Safran), 1 russian.
Probably a chineese will arrived.

And that's all (for the moment).

Why? Because it is not only a challenge in material (ie : blades are used in an environnement where temperature is over the melding one !), it is also a challenge in electronic control (FADEC), in thermodynamics, in general design (not the same structure for a stricke fighter than for an air superiority one)...

There are some general rules to drive an engine study, but there is also some know how very very special.

It is probably the component of a fighter the more difficult to developp (it takes 10 year to developp).

 

[Berkut]

@BON PLAN thanks for taking the time out for giving us a heads up,,, I think that makes sense. So what you are saying is,,, no matter how much we model this on a computer we still have to build maybe 50 plus prototypes and break them to get the design right.

Follow up Question:
Is it hard to reverse engineer one too? Or are their binding regulations that would prevent us from stripping a Tumansky engine down from a decommissioned MIG-25 and work our way back?

The Americans probably got their engine from the German team post WW2 but what about the French, Soviets? Are there any studies on their journey to achieve self sufficiency in a jet engine? Can't we replicate this journey?

You would think why I am throwing such queries. It's just hard for me to come to terms that a people as talented as us cannot build a fighter engine.

 

[Prashant12]

=========================================

 

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN thanks for taking the time out for giving us a heads up,,, I think that makes sense. So what you are saying is,,, no matter how much we model this on a computer we still have to build maybe 50 plus prototypes and break them to get the design right.

Follow up Question:
Is it hard to reverse engineer one too? Or are their binding regulations that would prevent us from stripping a Tumansky engine down from a decommissioned MIG-25 and work our way back?

The Americans probably got their engine from the German team post WW2 but what about the French, Soviets? Are there any studies on their journey to achieve self sufficiency in a jet engine? Can't we replicate this journey?

You would think why I am throwing such queries. It's just hard for me to come to terms that a people as talented as us cannot build a fighter engine.

To become the sixth engine producer, you will have to work hard, and a long time.... To developp a fighter engine a little bit too early vs india's experience and skill was maybe too ambitious. You have to made second rank pieces before to make THE masterpiece.

Reverse engineering? It helps. But it doesn't give you why and how such component is made in such material and with such dimension. And a Mig25 engine is a 60th technology.... too old.

I'm not sure US used german tech for their own engine. Before end of WW2 they already have some engines ready. Maybe a little bit help.... it's not like rockets and missiles, where nazi tech was somes years ahead.

P80 shooting Star first flight was in june 1944.

 

[AnantS]

Kaveri has been developed 70-80%, even by Safran standards. Thats a big achievements. I am not sure what pound of flesh will Safran ask for 1 Billion dollars investment or what IP rights will be passed to GTRE. Because for Kaveri, last thing we need is Shakti-Turbomeca kind of collaboration.
Co-operation here needed is more for "know-why" and less "know-how". Which I doubt understandably, Safran will be able to part with GTRE.

 

[BON PLAN]

Kaveri has been developed 70-80%, even by Safran standards. Thats a big achievements. I am not sure what pound of flesh will Safran ask for 1 Billion dollars investment or what IP rights will be passed to GTRE. Because for Kaveri, last thing we need is Shakti-Turbomeca kind of collaboration.
Co-operation here needed is more for "know-why" and less "know-how". Which I doubt understandably, Safran will be able to part with GTRE.

even a 99% achivement engine is not an operational one.
the last 70 to 80% include flight tests, modifications, new flight tests... It cost a lot.

and don't imagine anyone will give you know how and know why for free