Kaveri Engine

[blue marlin]

Experts, now that HAL is all set to reduce the weight of Tejas MK1 by almost a ton why cannot we integrate the Kaveri GTRE engine with 75kn. It will save us a lot of forex instead of buying GE engines. We can later improve its performance or add 3D TVC in later MK's.

the kaveri engines 79kn thrust, is that wet thrust or dry thrust?
i thought the mk1 was powered by the f404 and the mk2 will be powered by the f414 which is more powerful.
why would they want to implement the kaveri on the lca? they should instead look at implementing the engine for the amca. as the development for the engine is slow and the amca is still in cad phase.

 

[kstriya]

the kaveri engines 79kn thrust, is that wet thrust or dry thrust?
i thought the mk1 was powered by the f404 and the mk2 will be powered by the f414 which is more powerful.
why would they want to implement the kaveri on the lca? they should instead look at implementing the engine for the amca. as the development for the engine is slow and the amca is still in cad phase.

Afaik GE F404 is a 84 kn engine, now that there will be considerable reduction in the weight of LCA i.e.15% of the current approx of 6.5 ton. A 7.5% lesser thrust engine should do. I really do not know how much power the subsystems will need but makes sense to use it test it and improve it with better variants. AMCA is in drawing board and will need a time tested engine which can be offered with the kaveri on board the LCA.

 

[blue marlin]

Afaik GE F404 is a 84 kn engine, now that there will be considerable reduction in the weight of LCA i.e.15% of the current approx of 6.5 ton. A 7.5% lesser thrust engine should do. I really do not know how much power the subsystems will need but makes sense to use it test it and improve it with better variants. AMCA is in drawing board and will need a time tested engine which can be offered with the kaveri on board the LCA.

i thought the lca was made of composites and the mk2 will be longer than the mk1 by 1 meter i cant imagine it being lighter. but lighter than average the most. the mk2 will have a larger engine too. if i may the mk2 will be heaver, considering the size increase and engine upgrade

 

[kstriya]

i thought the lca was made of composites and the mk2 will be longer than the mk1 by 1 meter i cant imagine it being lighter. but lighter than average the most. the mk2 will have a larger engine too. if i may the mk2 will be heaver, considering the size increase and engine upgrade

Afaik mk2 will have more composite's than mk1, there will no changes to accommodate the new engine as the air flow required for the new engine is sufficient only change will be in the radar and some onboard electronics.

 

[blue marlin]

Afaik mk2 will have more composite's than mk1, there will no changes to accommodate the new engine as the air flow required for the new engine is sufficient only change will be in the radar and some onboard electronics.

thats not what i heard/read. i was told the jet will be lengthened by 1 meter have a new ge414 engine and possibly an aesa and some others. as far as composites go the lca is wont incorporate a significant amount more then before. they will focus more on capability.

 

[kstriya]

We have multiple treads on this platform debating the lca in details, @Kunal and @ershaktivel have been very generous in explaining intrigue details to all and smacking trolls too. Please go through the posts you will find a different answer. Afaik the composites will increase and the basic aero structure will remain as it is. Due to technology enhancement HAL has agreed to reduce the weight by 15% and i would like to see the Kaveri engine in the LCA as it is 7.5% less thrust compared to F404. I wish for a truely indigenous aircraft hope for the best.

 

[saik]

firstly, we need to get our designs proper with heavy investment into Kaveri. It is not enough to just prove the design in some test status. We need to integrate the engine with LCA TD wala that perhaps should be available for this.

A 3$b and get to work on a common engine 110-120kN that goes for both LCA MK3 and AMCA is the need of the hour. Foreign collaboration will kill the project. we should focus and get this done by reorganizing GTRE and ignore the firang inputs.

Time and money spent of Kaveri will slingshot India into the most advanced clubs. There are lot of nayers than yayers.

 

[salute]

firstly, we need to get our designs proper with heavy investment into Kaveri. It is not enough to just prove the design in some test status. We need to integrate the engine with LCA TD wala that perhaps should be available for this.

A 3$b and get to work on a common engine 110-120kN that goes for both LCA MK3 and AMCA is the need of the hour. Foreign collaboration will kill the project. we should focus and get this done by reorganizing GTRE and ignore the firang inputs.

Time and money spent of Kaveri will slingshot India into the most advanced clubs. There are lot of nayers than yayers.

state run hal,gtre cannot do it,
if only some indian private company which has money and other resources can do it,
because there are lot of hurdles in engine tech and also greedy lobby people gonna keep derailing it,
business of private companies is private and their own,
what others say nay or yay doesnt matters,

also countries like usa and russia not gonna like india making their own engines,
because india in aerospace business is not only loss of a big customer but also india could be new competitor too.

 

[saik]

how likely is that a possibility? we have distributed experts including ones settled in videsh who are willing to help in this deep research. many people are keen if what you say is anything close to true.

 

[myana]

state run hal,gtre cannot do it,
if only some indian private company which has money and other resources can do it,
because there are lot of hurdles in engine tech and also greedy lobby people gonna keep derailing it,
business of private companies is private and their own,
what others say nay or yay doesnt matters,

also countries like usa and russia not gonna like india making their own engines,
because india in aerospace business is not only loss of a big customer but also india could be new competitor too.

People have to come out of Myth that Private companies are the saviors and do the job better. Private companies are not driven by patriotism they are driven by Profits. Why would a Private entity invest 5000-10000 crores rupees in developing an Engine, testing facilities and R&D. Do they see return of the investment + Profits. Even if they have successfully created one in 10 years how are they assured the orders. Even to start one do they have human resources to do it. Leave alone test facilities which can be bought by money.

Private companies are best as manufacturers as they are driven by profits they will streamline manufacturing and scale whenever the need may be.

Like ADA/HAL which are ready to share manufacturing processes to private players for the subsystems, GTRE will work in developing an required Engine and manufacturing the can be delegated.

Take the situation of Kaveri which cannot be used in the Tejas1 or Tejas2 or NTejas, may be the derivatives are being used in Aura & discussions are for KMGT engine. Will these give the return of the investment incurred. If Private entity is in place of GTRE it would filed Bankruptcy long time ago.

 

[sorcerer]

No one seems to be interested in jet engines. Looks like the priorities are messed up.

Indigenous Kaveri engine to power Unmanned Combat Aircraft
After having failed to achieve the required thrust to power Light Combat Aircraft, the indigenously developed Kaveri engine will now be used to power Indian Unmanned Combat Aircraft, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said.

In a written reply to Rajya Sabha, Parrikar said the total expenditure incurred on development of Kaveri engine so far is Rs 2,101 crore.

"Aero engine developed by DRDO has not achieved the required thrust to power Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Therefore, it has been decided to use Kaveri derivative engine ("dry" engine) for powering Indian Unmanned Combat Aircraft," he said.

The project for development of Kaveri engine was sanctioned in 1989 with probable date of completion in 1996, which was extended to 2009. Government has further approved its continuation within the cost ceiling.

The major reasons for non-completion of project within the time-schedule were technological difficulties faced due to complexities of engine system, non-availability of raw materials, critical components, lack of infrastructure, manufacturing and test facilities within the country, Parrikar said.

Non-availability of skilled or technical manpower in the field of aero-engine technology and increase in scope during development were also some of the reasons, he said.


http://www.deccanherald.com/content/492397/indigenous-kaveri-engine-power-unmanned.html

 

[Yumdoot]

People have to come out of Myth that Private companies are the saviors and do the job better. Private companies are not driven by patriotism they are driven by Profits.
<snip>
Take the situation of Kaveri which cannot be used in the Tejas1 or Tejas2 or NTejas, may be the derivatives are being used in Aura & discussions are for KMGT engine. Will these give the return of the investment incurred. If Private entity is in place of GTRE it would filed Bankruptcy long time ago.

Private Sector works for Cash and not profits - Major difference. While PSUs work for Salaries and safety.

And that is why a successful MIC must have the Govt. giving cash for major projects and the Private sector working its ass off to deliver so the next cash disbursement can keep it out of troubles.

Problem with PSUs is that they tend to seek safety in order-book sizes without deliverying on production rates.

However you do have a point in that people tend to take simplistic solutions - so if Americans and Europeans have MIC based on private sector so we should have it too. But this overlooks the fact that American and European cash kitty is like 1 trillion USD an year. OTOH Indian Cash outlay is like 10 billion USD an year.

To effectively use this cash outlay for capital acquisition we need to slog at R&D stage much more and in a much more secretive and well directed manner. Private sector sucks at this with companies competing on nearly all counts. For example you can land up at HAL and ask for 3 copies of an aggregate done slightly different from the 2 copies done earlier with option to do the more 2 copies for the LSP in a third and semi-final shape. But with private sector you have just seen what happened with Cobham. Cobham had the balls of LCA in its hands for nearly an year and GoI could not do anything about it. GoI infact had to ultimately agree to an upgrade of the HAWK-132 from the parent company of Cobham, with the IAF playing for that parent company .

 

[pmaitra]

According to this report by Ajay Shukla, Russia has offered India assistance in developing a 5th Generation fighter jet engine, something which both France and US have denied.

 

[R.parida]

http://idrw.org/tejas-mark-1-a-program-will-lead-revival-of-indigenous-jet-engine-defence-analyst/

 

[R.parida]

The NDA government is set to give the green light to a Rs 3,000-crore plan to develop Ghatak, a new engine that will power India's first unmanned combat aircraft, or drones capable of delivering bombs as well as tackling aerial threats, as part of a project that envisages major participation of the private sector.

Ghatak will be a derivative of the abandoned Kaveri project that had been in the works for over two decades, officials said. The key difference in the current plan ..

"This is one project in which the private industry will be brought into the picture from the very start," said a senior official, who did not wish to be identified. "Very high-end technology is required for the UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) and several industry houses in India are capable of developing and absorbing this technology," he said.
The Indian UCAV project is tentatively called Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft (AURA). The target is to get the system operational within eight years once the funds are cleared by the government, officials said. The original Kaveri project was meant to power the light combat aircraft but it got shelved as the engine could not deliver sufficient thrust for the fighter aircraft. In its revived avatar, the engine will be modified and its afterburners will be removed to power the first Indian



Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[ezsasa]

The NDA government is set to give the green light to a Rs 3,000-crore plan to develop Ghatak, a new engine that will power India's first unmanned combat aircraft, or drones capable of delivering bombs as well as tackling aerial threats, as part of a project that envisages major participation of the private sector.

Ghatak will be a derivative of the abandoned Kaveri project that had been in the works for over two decades, officials said. The key difference in the current plan ..

"This is one project in which the private industry will be brought into the picture from the very start," said a senior official, who did not wish to be identified. "Very high-end technology is required for the UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) and several industry houses in India are capable of developing and absorbing this technology," he said.
The Indian UCAV project is tentatively called Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft (AURA). The target is to get the system operational within eight years once the funds are cleared by the government, officials said. The original Kaveri project was meant to power the light combat aircraft but it got shelved as the engine could not deliver sufficient thrust for the fighter aircraft. In its revived avatar, the engine will be modified and its afterburners will be removed to power the first Indian



Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Good one, many of us on DFI were expecting since the news of Kaveri shelving was announced.

 

[Chinmoy]

The NDA government is set to give the green light to a Rs 3,000-crore plan to develop Ghatak, a new engine that will power India's first unmanned combat aircraft, or drones capable of delivering bombs as well as tackling aerial threats, as part of a project that envisages major participation of the private sector.

Ghatak will be a derivative of the abandoned Kaveri project that had been in the works for over two decades, officials said. The key difference in the current plan ..

"This is one project in which the private industry will be brought into the picture from the very start," said a senior official, who did not wish to be identified. "Very high-end technology is required for the UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) and several industry houses in India are capable of developing and absorbing this technology," he said.
The Indian UCAV project is tentatively called Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft (AURA). The target is to get the system operational within eight years once the funds are cleared by the government, officials said. The original Kaveri project was meant to power the light combat aircraft but it got shelved as the engine could not deliver sufficient thrust for the fighter aircraft. In its revived avatar, the engine will be modified and its afterburners will be removed to power the first Indian



Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

I wonder, when we could have a turbo fan engine for CMs? Would it be a step towards it?

 

[Chinmoy]

The NDA government is set to give the green light to a Rs 3,000-crore plan to develop Ghatak, a new engine that will power India's first unmanned combat aircraft, or drones capable of delivering bombs as well as tackling aerial threats, as part of a project that envisages major participation of the private sector.

Ghatak will be a derivative of the abandoned Kaveri project that had been in the works for over two decades, officials said. The key difference in the current plan ..

"This is one project in which the private industry will be brought into the picture from the very start," said a senior official, who did not wish to be identified. "Very high-end technology is required for the UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) and several industry houses in India are capable of developing and absorbing this technology," he said.
The Indian UCAV project is tentatively called Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft (AURA). The target is to get the system operational within eight years once the funds are cleared by the government, officials said. The original Kaveri project was meant to power the light combat aircraft but it got shelved as the engine could not deliver sufficient thrust for the fighter aircraft. In its revived avatar, the engine will be modified and its afterburners will be removed to power the first Indian



Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

I wonder, when we could have a turbo fan engine for CMs? Would it be a step towards it?

 

[The enlightened]

I wonder, when we could have a turbo fan engine for CMs? Would it be a step towards it?

CM engines aren't designed for re-use as would be required from an aircraft. Completely different design philosophy, metallurgy etc. Somewhat like comparing pre-2006 F1 engines with family wagon engines.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

The NDA government is set to give the green light to a Rs 3,000-crore plan to develop Ghatak, a new engine that will power India's first unmanned combat aircraft, or drones capable of delivering bombs as well as tackling aerial threats, as part of a project that envisages major participation of the private sector.

Ghatak will be a derivative of the abandoned Kaveri project that had been in the works for over two decades, officials said. The key difference in the current plan ..

"This is one project in which the private industry will be brought into the picture from the very start," said a senior official, who did not wish to be identified. "Very high-end technology is required for the UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) and several industry houses in India are capable of developing and absorbing this technology," he said.
The Indian UCAV project is tentatively called Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft (AURA). The target is to get the system operational within eight years once the funds are cleared by the government, officials said. The original Kaveri project was meant to power the light combat aircraft but it got shelved as the engine could not deliver sufficient thrust for the fighter aircraft. In its revived avatar, the engine will be modified and its afterburners will be removed to power the first Indian

Give the project to the builder of engines of our space rockets: The Godrej Aerospace
They will not only provide engines for fighter planes but also for cargo aircrafts and bombers.
:biggrin2::biggrin2: