Kaveri Engine

[badguy2000]

India has to make up lots of missed lessons,before India can work out a real indigenious engine.

 

[ZOOM]

India has to make up lots of missed lessons,before India can work out a real indigenious engine.

Don't worry, only china can do that.

 

[enlightened1]

Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters​

​

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 12th Dec 09

In what was nominated in 1976 as the Fight of the Year, boxing legend, George Foreman, staggered to his feet after being twice knocked down by Ron Lyle, to flatten Lyle with a stunning knockout punch. If the Ministry of Defence has its way, India’s Kaveri engine, bitterly criticised as underpowered even after two decades of development, could recover to do a Foreman on its two world-class rivals.

Meant to power the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Kaveri was heading for a quiet burial after completing flight tests that are underway in Russia. In its place, two alternatives were short-listed: the Eurojet EJ200, and the General Electric F-414 engines. A final choice was expected within weeks.

But, unexpectedly, the Kaveri has gotten off the floor. Business Standard has learned that the MoD --- apprehending that Eurojet and GE would hang back from providing India with critical engine technologies, even if Transfer of Technology (ToT) was mandated in a purchase contract --- now wants to co-develop an engine in India rather than manufacturing one under licence. The DRDO’s Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), which has a design partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma, has been asked to design a more powerful Kaveri successor.

A Snecma-GTRE joint venture to develop the upgraded Kaveri is likely to be announced during President Nikolas Sarkozy’s visit to India in early 2010.

Minister of State for Defence, Dr Pallam Raju, has confirmed to Business Standard, “It is important for India to have indigenous capabilities in engine design. And having invested so many man-hours of work into the design of the Kaveri engine, it would be a national waste to fritter away or dilute those capabilities…. (Snecma) is willing to co-develop an engine with us; they are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology. It is a value-added offer that gives us better technology than what we would get from ToT from Eurojet or GE.”

Amongst the key engine technologies that India needs is that for Single Crystal Blades, which significantly enhance turbine performance within the incandescent confines of a jet engine combustion chamber. The MoD suspects that this technology, worth billions of dollars, will not be fully transferred by Eurojet or by GE.

An MoD official, who is closely involved in deciding between the EJ200 and the F-414, explains this apprehension: “The tender stipulates that 50% of the technology must be transferred to India. But the vendor will lump together a bunch of low-end technologies that might add up to 50%. What we want is one or two high-end technologies.”

GTRE designers say that it would take about 4 years to co-develop an engine with Snecma, somewhat longer than the 3-year time frame in which the EJ200 or F-414 would start being delivered. Based upon the performance of the Kaveri flight in the ongoing flight tests in Russia, GTRE sources are confident that, “Snecma-GTRE is fully capable of producing an engine as good as the F-414 and the EJ-200.”

That will involve improving from the current Kaveri’s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN), to the 95 KN that the EJ200 and F-414 develop.

While Snecma remains tight-lipped, it is aware of the challenges in such a project. Business Standard has learned that Snecma had conducted a Technical Audit of the Kaveri programme in 1998, identifying design challenges that included developing materials that could withstand the combustion chamber temperatures of around 2000 degrees centigrade.

While the MoD is trusting Snecma to help GTRE in overcoming these challenges, it is also aware of the Kaveri’s unenviable record of time and cost overruns. The MoD is still considering whether to put all its eggs in the GTRE-Snecma basket or to go ahead on a parallel track, choosing either the EJ200, or the GE F-414, as insurance against further delays.

 

[nitesh]

cross posting:

Shape Memory Alloys

Currently, the technology for the manufacture of Ni-Ti-Fe alloys and heat shrinkable sleeves are under transfer to Foundry & Forge Division of HAL, Bengaluru, where a plant dedicated to this purpose is being set up. When operational, this plant will be the only one in the country and amongst a few worldwide that manufacture shape memory alloys and heat shrinkable fasteners. Other components currently under development for application in LCA include heat shrinkable hydraulic coupling and thermally actuated valves.

 

[enlightened1]

PIB Press Release

13:24 IST
/LOK SABHA/

The proposal on the Kaveri-Snecma engine joint venture for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is under consideration of the Government.

Request for Proposal (RFP) for procuring 99 engines have been sent to two short-listed engine manufacturers, namely GE F414 from General Electric Aviation, USA and EJ200 from Eurojet Germany.

The engine houses have responded to the RFP. Both Commercial and technical responses have been received for procurement of 99 engines along with Transfer of Technology.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Gajanan D Babar and others in Lok Sabha today.

PK / RAJ

 

[johnq]

A spin-off of even the current Kaveri engine should be good enough to power long-range cruise missiles. A large number of 1500 km range cruise missiles can be just as good a force-multiplier as a large number of combat aircraft.

 

[Sridhar]

Kaveri engine has helped even other engine manufacuring

High Pressure Turbine (HPT) Blade for Adour Engine:
Vacuum investment casting
technology has been established for
production of intricate, hollow castings,
meeting the stringent requirements of Kaveri
engine. This indigenous technology has
successfully been extended to produce
directionally solidiied hollow HPT blades
for Adour engine, in association with HAL.
Efforts are on to produce ceramic cores, the
only component procured from a foreign
source, also in-house. This technology will
soon be transferred to HAL, Koraput for
commercial production.

Source : MOD Annual report 2008-09

http://mod.nic.in/reports/AR-eng-2009.pdf

 

[stax]

Congratulations!
Develop an aeroengine is really a hard work. In China our fighters have "heart disease" too. WS-10 is not reliable enough to mass produce.

 

[nitesh]

DRDO gets nod for French tie-up for Kaveri project

BANGALORE: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been given the go-ahead by the government to take up an offer of French firm Snecma to ‘partner’ with the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) for jointly developing the Kaveri aero engine.

Senior GTRE officials told The Hindu that talks with Snecma “could start early next year.” The Kaveri’s eventual user, the Indian Air Force now appears to have softened its opposition to the tie-up, they said.

The Rs. 2,839-crore Kaveri engine programme was launched in 1989, specifically to power the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, now under development at the DRDO’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). In 2005, the GTRE indicated that it would not be able to develop the Kaveri engine on its own.

Interestingly, the government’s nod, which is expected to cost the exchequer at least Rs 1,000 crore, comes nine months after a team, headed by Air Vice-Marshal M. Matheswaran and comprising officials from the ADA, the IAF and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, submitted a report that stated that an engine developed jointly by Snecma and the GTRE would not meet the IAF’s performance requirements. The IAF also wanted the Kaveri project delinked from Tejas programme.

According to informed sources, members of the Matheswaran team were critical of the French passing off their existing and fully developed ‘Eco’ engine core. This, the team felt, would not give India the engine core design knowledge or even control over it. It also pointed out that the design technology being handed out would take years to come.

Based on the report, the French offer was put on the backburner with even officials from Snecma stating that the “chapter was closed.” But the IAF for reasons not yet clear, appear to have reversed its stand.

Snecma, which indicated that an engine run of at least 250 is required to make their offer economically viable, agrees that an existing core would be at the heart of the Snecma – GTRE Kaveri engine.

It, however, denies it would take years for handing over the design technology. It will take at least five years before the first production engine comes out.

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: “Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it.”

GTRE director Mohan Rao said the capabilities of “the existing French core will be enhanced to suit the IAF’s requirements.”

The GTRE hopes to use the Snecma – GTRE Kaveri to replace the GE F404 (IN20) engine that will fly two squadrons of the Tejas.

If all goes well the Snecma-GTRE tie-up could be formalised during the French President Nicolas Sarkozy’s planned visit to India in March –April 2010.

 

[notinlove]

is this good news or bad

 

[pankaj nema]

I think since we are already going in for 150 GE 414 / EJ 200 for LCA mk 2
this kaveri engine project is being revived for MCA.

 

[s_bman]

@p2p

care to explain how!

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: “Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it.”

this is same BS reason given by french for scorpene delay in the name of Teething problems,so how can be we sure of history not repeating itself

 

[Armand2REP]

@p2p

care to explain how!

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: “Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it.”

this is same BS reason given by french for scorpene delay in the name of Teething problems,so how can be we sure of history not repeating itself

Same reason, but is it BS? AK Antonony himself said the reason Scorpene was delayed because of “problems in the absorption of technology" by a domestic shipyard assembling the attack submarines in western India.

Why would your Defence Min. blame Indians if it was France's fault?? You have been more than willing to place blame where it is due to imports in the past. Both the Scorpene design and engine core of the M88-3 require highly advanced production methods, methods the Indian teams have never worked with before. It takes time to educate people and get them assimilated with new technologies, but then it takes even more time to reorganise your entire industry to build it. Our production methods are far more advanced than Russian tech transfers.

 

[badguy2000]

@p2p

care to explain how!

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: “Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it.”

this is same BS reason given by french for scorpene delay in the name of Teething problems,so how can be we sure of history not repeating itself

the complication of industry-chains is much more than you think.

a big military project such as subs or engine needs the supports from hundreds of industry sections ,such as metallurgy,material,machining,electronics..etc.

sometimes, even one component of subs or engines take decades to be assimilated.

For example, CHinese inducted yankee's "black eagle" helicoper" in 1980s,but failed to R-E it. why? it is because CHinese industry chains were so generation behind USA at that time that Chinese industry can not provide the qualified material such as steel at all.

 

[p2prada]

@p2p

care to explain how!

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: “Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it.”

this is same BS reason given by french for scorpene delay in the name of Teething problems,so how can be we sure of history not repeating itself

Armand's second paragraph already answered your question.

 

[p2prada]

Our production methods are far more advanced than Russian tech transfers.

All though this does not make sense. The Russians already make much more advanced engines than France. There is no AL-31 equivalent in France, so forget about AL-31FP or the 117S.

 

[Armand2REP]

All though this does not make sense. The Russians already make much more advanced engines than France. There is no AL-31 equivalent in France, so forget about AL-31FP or the 117S.

Size has nothing to do with the complexity. The M88-3 is a generation ahead of Russian engine design of the same class. RD-33MK is 10% larger with 10% less performance. The most current example of their failed industry is the JV between Saturn and Snecma to produce SaM146 for SSJ-100. We make the core, FADEC, accessory drive and integration while Russians only make the low pressure section and final assembly. Superjet is delayed because Russians can't even do that. They came to us for the very fact their engine technology is behind ours and they can't build it when we ship them the high end components they ordered.

 

[badguy2000]

Size has nothing to do with the complexity. The M88-3 is a generation ahead of Russian engine design of the same class. RD-33MK is 10% larger with 10% less performance. The most current example of their failed industry is the JV between Saturn and Snecma to produce SaM146 for SSJ-100. We make the core, FADEC, accessory drive and integration while Russians only make the low pressure section and final assembly. Superjet is delayed because Russians can't even do that. They came to us for the very fact their engine technology is behind ours and they can't build it when we ship them the high end components they ordered.

French engine is generation behind UK and USA and almost equal to Rusisia's.

in fact, before USSR collapsed, as for engine tech French was most crappy ,of the 4 countries that could manufactur engine independently. However, French has good avionics.

Of all 4G bird, French M2000 has poorest engine. in fact, as for T/W ratio, the M2000's engine was only 6.0,almost one generation behind F15/16's and Su27's.
its avionics makes up the flaw,to some extent.

Russia's engine tech has been left behind by USA and UK by one generation .


As for engine tech today,

USA and UK has best engine tech, they are the 1st class;

Russia and French is about one generation behind(almost 15-20 year behind). they are the second class;

China is about 1.5 G behind( about 25-30 years behind,that is USA in 1980s);

India's Kavery has a T/W ratio about 6. that is almost 40-50 years behind UK. UK's spey has also a ratio of 5.8,and it was developed in 1960s.

 

[p2prada]

Size has nothing to do with the complexity. The M88-3 is a generation ahead of Russian engine design of the same class. RD-33MK is 10% larger with 10% less performance. The most current example of their failed industry is the JV between Saturn and Snecma to produce SaM146 for SSJ-100. We make the core, FADEC, accessory drive and integration while Russians only make the low pressure section and final assembly. Superjet is delayed because Russians can't even do that. They came to us for the very fact their engine technology is behind ours and they can't build it when we ship them the high end components they ordered.

You are comparing apples and oranges. The AL-31F is 3 decades old. The M-88-3 is not even ready. The 117S will come out sooner than the M-88-3 too. In the next 5-10 years, the AL-41 is also expected to be operationalized which will place it right behind P&W F-135. Civilian engines isn't even the bone of contention. Airbus is pretty good at engine design. At the same time the Russians get to save money by entering into a JV with France. Who wouldn't go for a win win situation?? Pride does not dictate business. People always go towards where the money is.

You always bring OT discussion into a thread. Civilian engines are not a topic of discussion. Superjet, SSJ-100 and what not.

 

[badguy2000]

You are comparing apples and oranges. The AL-31F is 3 decades old. The M-88-3 is not even ready. The 117S will come out sooner than the M-88-3 too. In the next 5-10 years, the AL-41 is also expected to be operationalized which will place it right behind P&W F-135. Civilian engines isn't even the bone of contention. Airbus is pretty good at engine design. At the same time the Russians get to save money by entering into a JV with France. Who wouldn't go for a win win situation?? Pride does not dictate business. People always go towards where the money is.

You always bring OT discussion into a thread. Civilian engines are not a topic of discussion. Superjet, SSJ-100 and what not.

it is someone's hobby to compare paper project in labs with other's mature products in service.
once he also compared "meteor" that is still in lab with other's missles in service.