Kaveri Engine

[Payeng]

Personally I am more interested in the K-9 project, it will be required to fly Indian drones.

 

[rvjpheonix]

Is it true that the kaveri has achieved 80 kn of thrust. Also is there any spooling problems?I guess the disintegration problem was solved , right?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kaveri Engine was integrated with IL-76 Aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia and flight test was successfully carried out up to 12 km maximum altitude and maximum forward speed of 0.7 Mach No. Twenty Seven flights for 57 hours duration have been completed.

Chief of Russia's flight test agency: India's indigenous Turbofan Engine, Kaveri

Military thrust (throttled): 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
Full afterburner: 18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)



@ersakthivel, Can update you more..

Is it true that the kaveri has achieved 80 kn of thrust. Also is there any spooling problems?I guess the disintegration problem was solved , right?

 

[ersakthivel]

Is it true that the kaveri has achieved 80 kn of thrust. Also is there any spooling problems?I guess the disintegration problem was solved , right?

The disintegration of engine parts was due to resonance of high frequency of vibration of engine parts .this problem is common to all equipments that are designed to withstand high frequency vibrations .

Thats why even the military men are not allowed to march past on the bridges. because in normal circumstances the bridge can take the load of 10 times the military men's weight. But when they march past they create a vibration in a frequency of distinct order that can destroy the bridge.

this phenomenon was only found out after a hanging brigde swaying in the wind just broke loose when it encountered the same vibration frequency problem in US.



The disintegration of engine parts was due to frequency resonance vibration of third order which was found out in test facilities in russia. And solved long back.


It has nothing to do with engine design. The facilities for testing the engine for this kind of vibration frequency problem is not here.That is why it took it's time to get resolved.

But still some people harp on this old resolved issue unable to understand the nature of the problem and how it was resolved naively saying the engine parts disintegrate in kaveri.

Now the only thing needed is tech for light weight high temp enduring production grade single crystal tech to produce higher power of more than 90 kn and engine weight reduction exercise.

that too because LCA has turned out to be

Finally it was resolved after GTRE got this test facility in Russia.

 

[pankaj nema]

The FAILED talks with Snecma means That even if you buy 20 Billion worth of
equipment ie as we are buying Rafale ; engine Technology is still NOT for Sale

Without a development partner Kaveri will NOT be ready for
another 20 years

Nobody will help us with engine technology

So if we want to make AMCA we have to use AL 41 ie FGFA engines

 

[sayareakd]

Therefore it is better to put our money in the project, get fresh blood and brain to work with existing guys and at the same time work towards acquiring the tech by all means. If we perfected this, our aviation industry will get benifit of this in next three decades. We will start making complete new planes including fighters. So it should be taken as national project and get in all IITs to work on it.

 

[A chauhan]

^^ Further it will bring many new technologies in the country which will be helpful in the military as well civil applications, affecting our overall industry growth.

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

At present, when still unavailable, has been delinked , in order to prioritize the LCA induction. De-linking it from LCA is easy part.

First let Kaveri achieve the following:

> 90 - 95 KN spec,

>be reliable platform (hours of MTBF / MTOW)

>be manufactured easily (SCB production, Assy Line, Engine Test Facility, etc.)

Once these 3 done (the hard part), It will surely come back into LCA program as future variant.

Kaveri has been completely delinked from LCA. Even if K-10 is made, it will never see service on LCA. This was confirmed by MoD, GTRE and in an interview with P. Rajkumar.

K-9 / K-9+ will be a demonstrator engine. A derivative will be used in AURA.

K-10 is for AMCA. May also be used in a future program for a second AURA like UCAV.

K-10 may be ready well after LCA program ends.

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

I guess, the only option left is going for the Russian route, if GTRE is allowed to produce RD-93s or rather assemble them, I guess the Russians wont mind providing the know how for an advanced Kaveri...there has to be some serious thought put into it..

 

[ersakthivel]

The FAILED talks with Snecma means That even if you buy 20 Billion worth of
equipment ie as we are buying Rafale ; engine Technology is still NOT for Sale

Without a development partner Kaveri will NOT be ready for
another 20 years

Nobody will help us with engine technology

So if we want to make AMCA we have to use AL 41 ie FGFA engines

Engine development is an evolution , not a revolution with the french aid. If the french or someone else helps it will be ready in 5 years. if not it will be ready in 10 years.Even without anybody's help GTRE has come this far.

So 20 year time frame is a very far fetched proposition. No need for that much worry.Since all the basic problems in engine design has been resolved and the K-9 producing something close to it's targeted thrust all the design calculations are proven right.

What remains is developing alloys that are lighter and able to withstand higher temp for a longer time without destruction like single crystal blades.

Much better option is to design the AMCA around k-9 as minimum thrust requirement and having capacity to use K-10's higher thrust once it is developed.

AL-41 is too big an engine and we don't know whether Russians will allow us or not, Already they haven't given us permission to use modified T-72 chasis in tank -Ex program and it is dangerous to tie the fate of the AMCA to the continued availability of AL_41 or that of LCA mk-2 to RD-93.

If you have any doubt please google and find out what happened to Marut which was designed around a foreign engine.

 

[TrueSpirit]

After LCA mk 2 HAL and ADA can make a Twin Engined MCA
ie a 4.5 GEN Plane with the engines of FGFA ie AL 41

By Going for an " stealthy " AMCA ; ADA is overstretching and overeaching itself

ADA should make the BEST 4.5 Gen plane in the world RATHER
than making a Fifth Gen AMCA

Like Korean KF-X program ?

KFX remains paper jet fighter | The Jakarta Post
Seoul Plans Phased-Development, Typhoon-Size Fighter

 

[ersakthivel]

Therefore it is better to put our money in the project, get fresh blood and brain to work with existing guys and at the same time work towards acquiring the tech by all means. If we perfected this, our aviation industry will get benifit of this in next three decades. We will start making complete new planes including fighters. So it should be taken as national project and get in all IITs to work on it.

All nations that had nuclear tech, missile tech , space launch tech and N sub tech have developed engine tech at least three decades back.

So the engine tech could not be such a genie as it is made it out to be. And with the tech level of India it could not be out of reach forever,

Mission minded approach in future will yield results on this count too.

 

[Patriot]

After LCA mk 2 HAL and ADA can make a Twin Engined MCA
ie a 4.5 GEN Plane with the engines of FGFA ie AL 41

By Going for an " stealthy " AMCA ; ADA is overstretching and overeaching itself

ADA should make the BEST 4.5 Gen plane in the world RATHER
than making a Fifth Gen AMCA

Is IAF ready to buy your idea? ADA or DRDO work as per IAF requirement.

 

[Patriot]

All nations that had nuclear tech, missile tech , space launch tech and N sub tech have developed engine tech at least three decades back.

So the engine tech could not be such a genie as it is made it out to be. And with the tech level of India it could not be out of reach forever,

Mission minded approach in future will yield results on this count too.

The engines issue has to be dealt as the national mission. Almost all our indigenous weapon system has the problem of engines only as all of them has impotred engines right from Arjun tank to LCH, ALH, IAC etc etc.

We must set up a joint public -pvt R & D set up to develope all types of engines & related set up for metallurgy & testing platforms under single management. This is time , we need to infuse cash & talented people from industry & academics. We have to make it a mission, do whatever it takes. What we lack is political will to initiate the same.

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

If I am correct, this is already being done.

RD-33 Test and Overhaul facility initially set up by HAL, been with us few years. Even appeared on HAL Calender and Website.

Later, License Mfg. and Assy. of RD-33 variant (Sea Wasp Engine of Mig-29K/ New Gearbox/ Corrosion Resistant / 7 % Thrust Increase) being done.

License is for 120 engines.

Notice no one among decision makers consider this an option. GE-404 also similarly assy. locally (I think for 99 engines).

See, Computer Assembly is easy, every city has people who do it .
What we have done is make Intel Spec Processor, Graphics Card, RAM and HDD.

All working well , but Processor not upto the mark. Snecma says use my Processor Core.

RD-33 Civilian version called as RD-93

Gurus please clarify further.

I guess, the only option left is going for the Russian route, if GTRE is allowed to produce RD-93s or rather assemble them, I guess the Russians wont mind providing the know how for an advanced Kaveri...there has to be some serious thought put into it..

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

I think when people say "Poor Project Mgmt. for Kaveri", it means that no Project Leader dude reporting directly to PM situation was created as in case of ISRO and IGMDP, maybe even ATV. Perhaps thought process at the time was that it would not become such a bottle neck.

The engines issue has to be dealt as the national mission. Almost all our indigenous weapon system has the problem of engines only as all of them has impotred engines right from Arjun tank to LCH, ALH, IAC etc etc.

We must set up a joint public -pvt R & D set up to develope all types of engines & related set up for metallurgy & testing platforms under single management. This is time , we need to infuse cash & talented people from industry & academics. We have to make it a mission, do whatever it takes. What we lack is political will to initiate the same.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We already have a Engine tested and certified which can be used on Tejas and rated at 81kt..

After testing and designing a working practical engine, 20 years sound absurd..

Kaveri variant will come by in time, And who ever told you the idea AL41 engines in AMCA, Does not have knowledge about AMCA on first place..

===================

AMCA is medium class +5 gen fighter, Its design to hold lighter and economic engines military engines like F-414 / Kaveri, Not heavy and bulgy AL-41 Russian Engines..

Without a development partner Kaveri will NOT be ready for ,another 20 years

So if we want to make AMCA we have to use AL 41 ie FGFA engines

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

If I am correct, this is already being done.

RD-33 Test and Overhaul facility initially set up by HAL, been with us few years. Even appeared on HAL Calender and Website.

Later, License Mfg. and Assy. of RD-33 variant (Sea Wasp Engine of Mig-29K/ New Gearbox/ Corrosion Resistant / 7 % Thrust Increase) being done.

License is for 120 engines.

Notice no one among decision makers consider this an option. GE-404 also similarly assy. locally (I think for 99 engines).

See, Computer Assembly is easy, every city has people who do it .
What we have done is make Intel Spec Processor, Graphics Card, RAM and HDD.

All working well , but Processor not upto the mark. Snecma says use my Processor Core.

RD-33 Civilian version called as RD-93

Gurus please clarify further.

There is NO civilian version called RD-93 it is an upgrade of the RD-33 and that is being licensed manufactured

There is no license manufacture of GE-404, there were 40 of them ordered for the Tejas Mk-I

Lastly the problem with the Kaveri is with its compressor and crystal blades, the tech for which is not mastered by the GTRE, and that why is a partnership with some other foreign manufacturer is required to help GTRE in doing that....

In this case, I hope the babus and mantris think of a the Russian option, if others fail.....

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

You are correct not civilian version, RD-93 used on JF-17 fighter.

License Mfg. of 99 GE-414 as per Wiki.

I said GE-404? I meant GE-414.

Kaveri we all hope for the best, that problems will be solved.

There is NO civilian version called RD-93 it is an upgrade of the RD-33 and that is being licensed manufactured

There is no license manufacture of GE-404, there were 40 of them ordered for the Tejas Mk-I

Lastly the problem with the Kaveri is with its compressor and crystal blades, the tech for which is not mastered by the GTRE, and that why is a partnership with some other foreign manufacturer is required to help GTRE in doing that....

In this case, I hope the babus and mantris think of a the Russian option, if others fail.....

 

[rvjpheonix]

The disintegration of engine parts was due to resonance of high frequency of vibration of engine parts .this problem is common to all equipments that are designed to withstand high frequency vibrations .

Thats why even the military men are not allowed to march past on the bridges. because in normal circumstances the bridge can take the load of 10 times the military men's weight. But when they march past they create a vibration in a frequency of distinct order that can destroy the bridge.

this phenomenon was only found out after a hanging brigde swaying in the wind just broke loose when it encountered the same vibration frequency problem in US.



The disintegration of engine parts was due to frequency resonance vibration of third order which was found out in test facilities in russia. And solved long back.


It has nothing to do with engine design. The facilities for testing the engine for this kind of vibration frequency problem is not here.That is why it took it's time to get resolved.

But still some people harp on this old resolved issue unable to understand the nature of the problem and how it was resolved naively saying the engine parts disintegrate in kaveri.

Now the only thing needed is tech for light weight high temp enduring production grade single crystal tech to produce higher power of more than 90 kn and engine weight reduction exercise.

that too because LCA has turned out to be

Finally it was resolved after GTRE got this test facility in Russia.

Thanks. You are right, that's the reason soldiers break their steps on bridges.
Since nobody is talking about any spooling problem I guess there is none like in
chinese engines.