Kaveri Engine

Ghost hale

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M88 TOT is just screw drivergiri. I still don't understand why french proposed to replace Kaveri's core with theirs when our core is working fine and when the real problem is with afterburner. They should work on afterburner right? I doubt whether french tried to fix the problems with afterburner or not.
TOT is screwgiri and thats true. It will just help us up our skilled workforce and save some money as it will be done in country.
Thats the reason i think afterburner is fine. News came out few months back that India asked for afterburner section from M 88 to improve on overall thrust. I guess that might not be much business for safran so they pushed for core. By what we can gather kaveri engine is fine with both core and afterburner as of now but its underpowered for fighter jet.
 

Vamsi

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TOT is screwgiri and thats true. It will just help us up our skilled workforce and save some money as it will be done in country.
Thats the reason i think afterburner is fine. News came out few months back that India asked for afterburner section from M 88 to improve on overall thrust. I guess that might not be much business for safran so they pushed for core. By what we can gather kaveri engine is fine with both core and afterburner as of now but its underpowered for fighter jet.
They had proposed to use M88 core way back in 2007-08 itself, but then IAF threw that proposal into a dustbin. If we use French core, what will be the Indian in it other than the new intake fan. We have to pay royalties for each core. Its just M-88 in the name of Kaveri.
 

Ghost hale

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They had proposed to use M88 core way back in 2007-08 itself, but then IAF threw that proposal into a dustbin. If we use French core, what will be the Indian in it other than the new intake fan. We have to pay royalties for each core. Its just M-88 in the name of Kaveri.
Yes. I think we should really have Kaveri -2 or something. Just improved afterburner section with 52KN core. It will surely help in long run.
 

Vamsi

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Yes. I think we should really have Kaveri -2 or something. Just improved afterburner section with 52KN core. It will surely help in long run.
The Gripen-c has 80KN of thrust and 14ton MTOW, then why Kaveri with 81KN thrust is underpowered. Kaveri with 81KN thrust and 7.8 T/W ratio, its weight should be around 1059 Kgs, then is it not overweight too. What I say is GTRE had done a great job, but if they had more support probably Kaveri would have been perfected by now
 

Ghost hale

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The Gripen-c has 80KN of thrust and 14ton MTOW, then why Kaveri with 81KN thrust is underpowered.
I am comparing to expected value by IAF as of now. Don't know exactly what is optimal requirement. Currently they are fine with 85KN. By that comparison it is low. Even 46KN and 74KN are the values quoted everywhere. I have seen 52KN dry thrust only in few places. It might be what was expected and would have been suffice and thus M88 core was offered. Very less info on it.
 

Vamsi

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I am comparing to expected value by IAF as of now. Don't know exactly what is optimal requirement. Currently they are fine with 85KN. By that comparison it is low. Even 46KN and 74KN are the values quoted everywhere. I have seen 52KN dry thrust only in few places. It might be what was expected and would have been suffice and thus M88 core was offered. Very less info on it.
52/81 where the achieved values. GTRE poster during Defexpo2020 confirms the same. Safran just wanted to sell their engine in the name of Kaveri.
 

Ghost hale

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52/81 where the achieved values. GTRE poster during Defexpo2020 confirms the same. Safran just wanted to sell their engine in the name of Kaveri.
Can u share that. Link... source anything?
 

MonaLazy

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screwgiri save some money as it will be done in country
That is an urban myth. Screwdrivergiri is not cost efficient- you end up paying many times over if you bought directly from OEM. It is only a tool for politicians to look good- "We created so many jobs!"

Just look at the cost of Su-30s bought directly from Russia and those that are assembled by HAL. In the Tejas Mk1A contract also money was saved by avoiding screwdrivergiri of GE F404s.

GE Aviation was early hesitant to approve ToT that could have granted locally assembly licensee to the HAL for its engines but Madhavan confirmed that the ToT clause was not included also due to an instance from the IAF that was not willing to foot the bill for the locally assembled jet engines and instead IAF is keen to focus on improving local maintainability and serviceability of the engines at its level.


HAL had proposed ToT of the F404-GE-IN20 Engines when it had given its initial bid of 56000 cores for 73 Tejas Mk1A and 10 Tejas Mk1 Trainer jets but after price negotiations, IAF was no longer interested in ToT of the F404-GE-IN20 Engines that helped it to reduce contract price after plans for the local assembly was dropped.
 

Ghost hale

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That is an urban myth. Screwdrivergiri is not cost efficient- you end up paying many times over if you bought directly from OEM. It is only a tool for politicians to look good- "We created so many jobs!"

Just look at the cost of Su-30s bought directly from Russia and those that are assembled by HAL. In the Tejas Mk1A contract also money was saved by avoiding screwdrivergiri of GE F404s.
Engine overhaul of more than 500+ aircraft every 7-8 years will need skilled workforce. No matter how much u can say screwgiri. People are needed for that too. If not like this then u will invest money seperately to do that or slow down production.
IAF needs money currently and GE TOT charges were 15-20% of whole deal.
 

MonaLazy

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IAF needs money currently and GE TOT charges were 15-20% of whole deal.
You have answered the feasibility question yourself. No money, hence no so-called ToT.

For overhauls that come up 7-8 years down the line may be IAF can look at outsourcing that to GE in Bangalore. Why set up an inefficient factory for everything. Base level maintenance work of course happens at IAF BRDs on demand.

GEs MRO facility can look at overhauling all civilian and military GE engines in Asia or atleast South Asia + ASEAN. Combined size of our civilian and military engine market more than justifies establishment of such a factory. No screwdrivergiri under HAL. For IAF it is a black box service- they pay for it and get engines overhauled locally.
 

Ghost hale

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You have answered the feasibility question yourself. No money, hence no so-called ToT.

For overhauls that come up 7-8 years down the line may be IAF can look at outsourcing that to GE in Bangalore. Why set up an inefficient factory for everything. Base level maintenance work of course happens at IAF BRDs on demand.
No TOT on GE. Safran already signed MOU in case of further rafale order for India and world. I am not talking about maintenance of engine. In a Aircraft lifetime atleast it takes 3 engine bare minimum. I was talking about it.
 

MonaLazy

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In a Aircraft lifetime atleast it takes 3 engine bare minimum.
I'm sorry I mis-understood. But even if you are looking at 3x engine over the aircraft's lifecycle- that only bolsters the case for no screwdrivergiri. Just get each unit engine for as cheap as possible from GE in USA- probably SKDs and some final assembly happening here at GEs local facilities.

With the funds saved from not having a factory- get that 110KN engine and put it in as many Tejas variants + AMCA as possible. Get rid of the US dependence as soon as possible. If it can be a drop fit for the F414 there are so many fighters in Asia we can target.
 

Ghost hale

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I'm sorry I mis-understood. But even if you are looking at 3x engine over the aircraft's lifecycle- that only bolsters the case for no screwdrivergiri. Just get each unit engine for as cheap as possible from GE in USA- probably SKDs and some final assembly happening here.

With the funds saved from not having a factory- get that 110KN engine and put it in as many Tejas variants + AMCA as possible.
True. What i tried to convey maybe was we are planning 200+ MK2, atleast 54 TEDBF, 126 AMCA on indigenous engine from second engine cycle. Its more than 500+ engines every 4-5 years from 2034-35. If we can have workforce development with M88 safran than i don't see any issue there. Regarding GE too it all came down to money i guess. Either way is fine save some money now invest later or keep pitching some amount for long term aerospace complex development. I prefer starting early even though its slow.
 

Spitfire9

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Adaptive cycle - the engine type of the future for fast jets?

Perhaps India should start researching this variable bypass technology - GE suggests possible fuel saving of 25%, increasing range for the same mass of fuel or allowing same range for less fuel ie higher payload.


PS Also info on CMC blades included on the page
 
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Lonewolf

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Adaptive cycle - the engine type of the future for fast jets?

Perhaps India should start researching this variable bypass technology - GE suggests possible fuel saving of 25%, increasing range for the same mass of fuel or allowing same range for less fuel ie higher payload.

Kaveri had some basic ACE feature in it , but not a refined design , if they tried it earlier ,most probably will have in this model too , rolls Royce was also working on it ,right ?
 

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