Kaveri Engine

Vaibhavseafarer

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Jab embargo milega Na. Tab Gan Fategi.

China and Russia both started as crap. No one gets perfect in one day. Let alone India.

In times of need, no one will help us. No one. At the end of the day, you can still build your INSAS. The west will just keep preaching of fascism and human rights.
This is the reason I'm not optimistic abot JV with RR
Why they will spoon feed turbofan tech with all IP and gets nothing but money.
I'm sure there will be some clauses in agreement.

I'm more open to develop our own engine.
We have bit of Experience in Kaveri.
It requires money and time
 

Lonewolf

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This is the reason I'm not optimistic abot JV with RR
Why they will spoon feed turbofan tech with all IP and gets nothing but money.
I'm sure there will be some clauses in agreement.

I'm more open to develop our own engine.
We have bit of Experience in Kaveri.
It requires money and time
They won't spoon feed everything ,we had done some niche research already by our own , not at the level of RR ,they will help in setting benchmark required to develop a particular tech , we have to improve what we have developed .

This isn't spoon feeding
 

Karthi

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Variable Geometry actuation system .jpg


vgas.jpg


Many people shows doubt on Kaveri is it a VCE

In the picture Variable Geometry Actuator for Gas turbine engines. Developed by GTRE . Kaveri is a variable Geometry engine. This one in the picture is used for moving High Pressure combustor blade's of Jet engine.

Turbine Testing Facility.jpg


Turbine testing instrument at GTRE.
Combuster model.jpg

a new Combustor for jet engines .
Afterburner Kaveri.jpg


Model of Kaveri engine afterburner
 

MonaLazy

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Kaveri is it a VCE
What are the benefits of VCE? Can it offer two flight modes like adaptive engines- power & eco modes similar to cars these days? For high power (for end game) and high mileage (cruise to get to engagement point)?

What exactly is the problem with Kaveri as of today? Why can't we complete its test & certification to install on one of the PVs?
 

Karthi

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What are the benefits of VCE? Can it offer two flight modes like adaptive engines- power & eco modes similar to cars these days? For high power (for end game) and high mileage (cruise to get to engagement point)?

What exactly is the problem with Kaveri as of today? Why can't we complete its test & certification to install on one of the PVs?
there are different kinds of VCE technologies , depends on the technology we used. in general we can achieve better fuel efficiency ,better thrust augmentation etc
 

Lonewolf

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ketaki

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Deep field knowledge + pics of engine is always impressive...

Its like good “foreplay” but the main part is “moneyshot” aka final testing, integration into tejas, orders and manufacturing

What about that?
 

MonaLazy

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Why no EPE as answered by HVT Sir..


There is no EPE engine. It can be developed by the OEM, provided we fund the full development, which in itself, will cost more than the entire Mk-2 R&D cost. It will not be very wise on our part, to take on such an expense for a foreign company.
 

onlinpunit

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Jab embargo milega Na. Tab Gan Fategi.

China and Russia both started as crap. No one gets perfect in one day. Let alone India.

In times of need, no one will help us. No one. At the end of the day, you can still build your INSAS. The west will just keep preaching of fascism and human rights.
In case of embargo sarkari gems will save us !
Any way in case of embargo what will happen to our economy ?
 

MonaLazy

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Adds nothing new except confirming all the developments so far.. already known on this forum and that the aero-engine program is one of national importance as of DAP 2020.

The article concludes on a tantalizing note- India might soon be able to make an important breakthrough in this critical sector by thinking ‘out of the box’.

Aeroengine technology, genuinely not an ‘elephant in the room’ for India

Ensuing, the recently held Virtual Summit between the Prime Ministers of India and UK, a very significant statement was issued by British High Commission in India.

The high commission stated “In addition to commitments on the Indo-Pacific, the two countries agreed to build on existing government-to-government collaboration on India’s future combat air engine requirements. As part of a ‘2030 Roadmap’, they agreed to work closely together in support of India’s indigenous development of the Light Combat Aircraft Mark 2” (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...nisters-announce-enhanced-defence-cooperation).

As far as history recalls, aero engine technology has proved to be the Achilles heel of India’s quest for self-reliance in combat aircraft manufacturing. The first indigenous fighter aircraft Marut that was developed by HAL was plagued by aero engine issues.

Few decades later the ‘Kaveri’ engine story followed a similar tale of failure to harness this difficult yet critical technology. Kaveri failed its high-altitude trials in Russia in the year 2004, leaving no choice for LCA designers to look for a viable alternative. The US manufactured General Electric GE-F404IN engine was finally selected as the replacement and is currently in use with the Tejas fighter that entered service for the IAF in 2016.

The reasons that delayed the development of Kaveri engine can be broadly categorized as technological complexity of design and development, lack of critical equipment and materials, engine technology denial by countries having the technology, inadequate domestic testing facilities, and non-availability of specialized manpower.

Though Kaveri project is no longer linked with LCA, the under development Ghatak UCAV (Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles) is going to be powered by a derivative of Kaveri engine and will be a 46-kilonewton dry variant of the Kaveri aero engine, thus ensuring some utilization of significant amount of money and effort that has so far been spent on the said project.

Big Question ?

So, what does the future of India’s quest for aero engines look like – the issue is very complex and may not fetch a straight answer for it. Suffice to say no effort can be termed as a complete waste of effort. Critical knowledge that was gained in the development process can be leveraged in future Joint Ventures (JV) for aero engines. It is in this context that the statement of the UK High Commission assumes greater significance. So far Rolls Royce and Safran have shown interest to partner with India to fulfill such requirements.

At Aero India 2021, HAL and Rolls Royce agreed to expand their existing partnership. In fact, more than 750 Rolls-Royce engines of 10 engine types are being used by the Indian Armed Forces already. The significant ones being the Adour Mk811 powering Jaguar, Adour Mk871 of Hawk AJT, AE2100 engine of strategic airlift aircraft C-130J Hercules and AE3007 engine for VIP and Surveillance aircraft Embraer ERJ145. Any company with this kind of footprint in a country will in normal course be interested to increase such engagements.

On the other hand, Safran Aircraft Engines at the aero show also signed a MoU with HAL. A statement issued by them mentioned that under the terms of the MoU, HAL and Safran intend to explore opportunities to assemble the Safran M88 engine and manufacture components for the engine with HAL for the Rafale fighter aircraft fleet of India.

The MoU contemplates transfer of a significant amount of technology in the assembling or manufacturing programs. The MoU also envisages significant collaboration between HAL and Safran for indigenization programs relating to design and development of high thrust engines of 110 kN power and above with transfer of key technology in the framework of this development.

These are significant developments and in conjunction with knowledge gained by GTRE during Kaveri R&D can lead to breakthroughs, provided, it is pursued in a coordinated manner where the key stakeholders will exchange knowledge and will be steered by the clarion call of “Atmanirbharta”.

Optimum utilization of existing milestones

In addition to GTRE under DRDO, HAL also has an Aero Engines Research and Design Centre (AERDC) established in 1960 that carries out design and development of Gas Turbine Engines. The Centre designed and developed small aero engines which are in successful operation with our Indian armed forces.

At present AERDC is tasked to develop two engines namely, Hindustan Turbo Fan engine (HTFE-25) of 25 kN thrust which can power trainer aircraft, UAV’s, Twin engine small fighter aircraft and Hindustan Turbo Shaft engine (HTSE-1200) of shaft power rating which can power Light & Medium weight helicopters (3.5 to 6.5 tonnes in single/ twin engine configuration). As of now both these projects have carried out successful trial runs of 25 kN core engine and 1200 kW Jet mode version engine up to 100% RPM. HAL also has engine overhauling facilities for its licence production aircraft.

Despite developing such good facilities over the last few decades, the gestation period for development of aero engines in India is sluggish and disappointing. That being said, it is imperative to mention that designing of aero engines for a modern-day fighter aircraft is an extremely complicated process with amalgamation of various technologies, as far as that includes subject domain like metallurgy, as well.

Interestingly, with our present knowhow of metallurgy, India has been able to successfully make engines for spacecraft, though the breakthrough for fighter jet engines remains elusive.

The reason for this being design complexity of fighter engines that should be able to perform across the range of aircraft maneuvering envelope. Also, this being a strategic capability it is highly unlikely for other nations to share the technology with us in totality.

Closer home, China has had its issues with development of WS-10B Taihang turbofan engines for its J-10 fighter aircraft. China has been testing these engines for almost a decade now while using Russian AL-31 engines as an interim measure. It is only recently that news of its success has surfaced. It is because of the level of technological challenges only a handful of nations so far have been able to master this technology.

Over the next two decades India is going to purchase or replace close to 2000 aircraft from its inventory including fighters, transport, and helicopters (both military and civil) and UAVs. Most of these aircraft will be multiengine. In an aircraft lifecycle the engines are replaced on an average of three to four times.

Thus, we can look at many engine production/overhaul costs amounting a significant sum of money. If we as a nation quickly do not master this capability most of this business will be outsourced overseas.

Also, once we develop this capability, we are looking into a large potential export market in parallel. Thus, though it might appear to be a huge investment of money and effort to get this capability, once successful, the potential returns can be phenomenal for a longer period.

Moral of the story

All said and done, bottom-line is India needs to make indigenous aero engines for its future aircraft projects. Rather than looking at the whole process of engine manufacturing as a problem statement, or challenge, if it is broken down into smaller sub-parts of various problem-solving statements which can be derived at by identifying the critical technology challenges that we have encountered in our years of service put into this field, it may be easier to find a path of solutions.

The need of the hour is to have a consortium approach with all key stakeholders of Indian Defence manufacturing ecosystem getting involved in this process. As it involves a lot of capital, talent, and infusion of multiple technologies. DRDO and HAL should consider involving our fast-emerging private defence industry partners as well, while taking help of foreign OEMs specifically for critical areas.

Opening of existing facilities to Private industry partners can be a starting step forward. The Govt on its part has made its intent very clear by giving the engine manufacturing special status. In the recently published Defence Acquisition Procedure (DAP) 2020 where para 29 (g) of Chapter 1 states that Aero engines manufacture need to be taken up as projects of National importance. It also states that Aero engines in India will mandatorily be procured for applicable defence equipment as Buyer’s Nominated Equipment (BNE)/ sub-assemblies and clarifies that these procurements will not be considered as Single Vendor Cases (SVC).

India’s defence manufacturing landscape is different today from what it was earlier. Proactive approach of MoD in the last few years along with various policy reforms have ensured an upbeat mood in the ecosystem, thus repeating the old approach of problem solving may result in similar failures of the past.

Difficult problems need different solutions and leadership approaches. India might soon be able to make an important breakthrough in this critical sector by thinking ‘out of the box’. So, to ensure happy landings and efficiency !

About the author: Group Captain Anupam Banerjee (r.), is a senior advisor- Society of Indian Defence Manufacturers and former spokesperson of Indian Air Force.
 

Spitfire9

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Adds nothing new except confirming all the developments so far.. already known on this forum and that the aero-engine program is one of national importance as of DAP 2020.

The article concludes on a tantalizing note- India might soon be able to make an important breakthrough in this critical sector by thinking ‘out of the box’.
From the article

Despite developing such good facilities over the last few decades, the gestation period for development of aero engines in India is sluggish and disappointing. That being said, it is imperative to mention that designing of aero engines for a modern-day fighter aircraft is an extremely complicated process with amalgamation of various technologies, as far as that includes subject domain like metallurgy, as well.

Interestingly, with our present knowhow of metallurgy, India has been able to successfully make engines for spacecraft, though the breakthrough for fighter jet engines remains elusive.

The reason for this being design complexity of fighter engines that should be able to perform across the range of aircraft maneuvering envelope. Also, this being a strategic capability it is highly unlikely for other nations to share the technology with us in totality.
A couple of comments: firstly, US, UK and French engine knowhow is not normally owned by the government. It is owned by commercial companies, so the extent of ToT by these companies is not decided by their government in government-to-government deals (although the government concerned can block ToT if it desires). Secondly, although not mentioned above, I get the impression that GOI thinks that the knowhow to build an engine can be secured from a leading OEM for a few hundred million dollars. Not the case. Forgetting that priming the Indian jet engine industry will likely lead to loss of sales to foreign OEM's in the long term, why should a company which has spent $20 billion or $30 billion on R&D to develop the knowledge and expertise to be a world leader then offer to sell it to a potential competitor for peanuts?

If there is 'an elephant in the room' as the article is entitled, I see it as GOI's reluctance to invest more than totally inadequate amounts of money, wishfully thinking that a miracle will happen and India will magically create a working fast jet engine. India's inability to build such engines is not down to nasty foreign companies sabotaging Indian industry by refusing to give away the results of their hard, expensive work. Rather, it is down to nasty Indian governments sabotaging Indian industry by refusing to invest in Indian technology.
 

Kchontha

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Indian turbofan or kaberi saga can be credited to many reasons unknown or known. The known reasons include lack of skill manpower, lack of metallurgy know how, lack of political wills, shortage of funds, lack of intellectual sincerity by gtre, etc. While unknown reasons include why goi is not taking turbofan development as national mission, Why is high altitude engine testing facilities not established in India and why is engine test bed aircrafts not procured.
 

Spitfire9

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Indian turbofan or kaberi saga can be credited to many reasons unknown or known. The known reasons include lack of skill manpower, lack of metallurgy know how, lack of political wills, shortage of funds, lack of intellectual sincerity by gtre, etc. While unknown reasons include why goi is not taking turbofan development as national mission, Why is high altitude engine testing facilities not established in India and why is engine test bed aircrafts not procured.
It may be be very difficult to develop skills in people when there is a limited pool of knowledge to start from. Developing metallurgy knowhow may take a long, long time. Lack of political will contradicts the notion of a national strategic programme. Wasn't that what Tejas and its engine was and Tejas still is? I'm not too convinced about that.

A national programme initiated originally to replace what? 200 or more MiG-21 fighters yet which built plant to produce a maximum 8 Tejas a year (until this year) does not show serious intent to me. And as you say, lacking engine testing facilities for Kaveri.

What has been going on for the last 25 years - some kind of strange exercise to build up national self esteem?

Anyway, Mk1A is just down the road. Too few Tejas, too late is better than no end result at all.
 

VIP

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View attachment 94135

View attachment 94136
View attachment 94137
View attachment 94138

Dry kaveri engine upgraded Fan for stealthy fighters , with high pressure distortion tolerance in Anti icing test facility .


View attachment 94139
View attachment 94140
View attachment 94142

stator portion of the Fan


View attachment 94143

Fan

View attachment 94144

After burner section of Kaveri.

View attachment 94141
The facility where these blades are being developed is in so pathetic state by just looking at the background. How can we develop such cutting edge tech in such pathetic environment. If the facility itself is in no good shape, can imagine about the people running it and also the state of the program. Shameful and disappointing.
 

CentralPoint

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From what I have seen of Kaveri personally, it is a good engine. Uses the best possible tools available to us to make something that is a quantum leap. Get this we haven’t made good small engines in house - even large Diesels or decent petrol engines. The much vaunted 2.2 from Mahindra and Tata is an AVL.

An aircraft engine is the cutting edge in engineering, metallurgy, physics and now software. That we were able to achieve a ’decent engine’ with the money allocated is due to the efforts of scientists and engineers.
The GTRE facilities are good | the photos you see with the dirty background is if I recall near the foundry area. Yes from a PR perspective we do lack.

GE / RR / or any other leading manufacturer of aircraft engines have been doing it for decades! Heck the basic core design of the 404 dates to the 70/80’s.

As for setting up test facilities, we are doing that. Gradually as required. Getting a flying testbed ia difficult and expensive. It needs to typically be A 4 engined aircraft with adequate reserves. Expensive initially. Maybe once we have a multitude of engines it would make sense. The Tejas took so long to test - because we developed the test infrastructure along with the aircraft. Our next generations of aircraft will have this advantage.

the other thing we all forget - Indians are not ’failure accepters’. Imagine if one Tejas was to have engine problems or worse control failure - the program would have likely been cancelled and we would have bought some other aircraft for sure. It’s the same with the Kaveri - we developed a state of the art engine with FADEC, Achieved dry thrust almost equivalent to all engines in its class, wet thrust slightly lower than projected ( projected being the key word) and had one or two test failures! Sudennly support for the program stopped during the ‘lost decade’. It’s just now that we are putting resources back in to the program.

to give an example. Recently we made a Blisk and SCB blades - technology that was patented by GE in the 90’s and it took GE 15 years to make their initial prototypes. Its. It just the technology of the blade - we had to create specialised foundries. So we first develop the base tech then the actual tech.
 

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