Kaveri Engine

BeEverVectorMan

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There was two thoughts of school going in ISRO during 80's

One team were assigned for let's start from scratch
And other team were assigned for reverse engineering from mark 1 prototype given to us by friendly countries
For other team there were many chest beating claims but result was drastically poor and more attention were given to it
But the one team who were assigned for let's start from scratch who were neglected for two decades started producing superb result
Moral of the story is knowledge can be gained or stolen choice is what you choose
 

Super lca

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Can anybody answer my question that if the jv between rr and drdo goes through than will we get crucial hot core tech?And if we get the hot core tech what will be the offset deal for mmrca tender winner?
 

Belagutti

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Can anybody answer my question that if the jv between rr and drdo goes through than will we get crucial hot core tech?And if we get the hot core tech what will be the offset deal for mmrca tender winner?
But this is an another Deha Vu.
 

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Backgrounder from French Safran asked India to invest close to 6000 Cr and committed to investing 3000cr of its investment as part of Rafale offset obligations to revive India’s now stalled Kaveri engine program French offer was considered too pricey by DRDO. DRDO already has invested over 3000cr in the Kaveri engine program but an additional investment for 6000 cr only to get core section of M-88-3 engines which included custom modification of the new Kaveri engine with Indian developed technology, and later certification of the modified engine along with ToT cud hv meant that SAFRAN enjoyed Royalty for its tech for decades to come acc to DRDO at least for Tejas Mk1A and MWF program they are sticking with USA's GE F404-IN20 (84 kN) and 414-GE-INS6 (98 kN) turbofan engines and Even for Naval Mk2 program, GE’s F414 turbofan engines are preferred but the problem with GE hs being is that these engines are brought off the shelf n hs no option of even local license assembly let alone any ToT of Key core tech Prototypes of 5th Gen AMCA Stealth fighter jets will use GE’s F414 in the initial stage bt d aircraft requires more powerful engine which cn generate 110kN of Thrust class over what current GE engines cn generate 98kN for which GE hs offered India its F414 Enhanced Engine which it says will be ready by 2022. F414 Enhanced Engine which has been under development for the US Navy for its F/A-18 E/F and EA 18G aircraft fleet will be able to generate around 116kN Thrust class which is 18% improvement over Standard F414 engines. GE believes F414 Enhanced Engines which will go into production by 2022 n already hs orders worth $630 mn frm US Navy to replace older engines in its aircraft will make it a perfect fit for d AMCA pro since the developmental cost of the program already is funded by US Navy. British Defence Secretary in his visit to India in 2017 had offered India to jointly develop a new engine based on EuroJet turbofan engine which powers Eurofighter Typhoon. The UK already has invited India to co-develop a 6th-gen fighter called the Tempest but o decision has been taken yet but India is yet to take a call on co-development offer on both engine and new 6th generation fighter aircraft Wth the United Kingdom. Military think tanks in India have called for the revival of Kaveri engine program so that India is not left behind in the development of mil-grade turbo class engines for its fighter n transport aircraft programs and hv called upon Modi govt to inject program wth more funds n new engineers n scientist along wth the participation of private sector to kick start the program again. DRDO officials believe the key decision on the direction of the program will be taking place next few months, will DRDO get-go head to have talks with RR or new core team will be formed to develop new higher thrust engines with fresh funding what will chart the future course of military jet engines development in India.

My take- US offers cutting edge tech only when we are close to realizing it ourselves (in this case with help from RR). Can the people handling these negotiations arm-twist GE to part with IPR of the 116kN thrust 414EPE?
Advantages - dev cost already footed by USN and ready by 2022. Enhancements are incremental and can be retrofitted into all F414s as per https://idrw.org/ex-drdo-chief-vk-saraswat-to-suggest-a-path-for-advanced-110kn-thrust-class-engine/
At stake is a chokehold on one of the world's largest jet engine markets with a requirement of 1400+ engines over 3-4 decades for LCA Mk2 and AMCA.
 

MonaLazy

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On the current RR offer.. EJ2x0 stage-1 was supposed to have been achieved in 2000-5 https://web.archive.org/web/20100731153302/http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html
Future of the EJ200
Engine uprating

The EuroJet consortium were required to build an engine (often referred to as EJ2x0) which had at least a 20% growth potential. There are already plans to carry out the necessary modifications to reach this higher (Stage-1) output in the 2000 to 2005 timeframe. Such an improvement will require a new Low Pressure Compressor (raising the pressure ratio to around 4.6) and an upgraded fan (increasing flow by around 10%). This would result in the dry thrust increasing to some 72kN (or 16,200lbf ) with a reheated output of around 103kN (or 23,100lbf). Given recent increases in the weight of the Typhoon it may not be unexpected to find this upgrade performed in the near future.

More interestingly perhaps is Rolls-Royce and EuroJet's plan to increase the output 30% above the baseline specification as a Stage-2 modification. Such an upgrade will require more substantial plantwide changes including a new LP compressor and turbine and an improvement in the total pressure ratio. These upgrades would yield a new dry thrust of around 78kN (or 17,500lbf) with a reheated output of around 120kN (or 27,000lbf). The indications are that these improvements will come on stream between 2005 and 2010, in time for the Typhoon's Mid Life Upgrade expected around 2016.

Given that there is no funding and hence little progress on these planned paths so far- RR is just shoehorning us into their long term on paper only plans- without India's active participation these paths may never mature as Eurofighter nations may go for 6th gen Tempest (totally new engine image below) over uprating EJ200. If India goes ahead with RR - and it (optimistically) takes up to 2027-8 to come out with Stage-2 engines other than India is anyone else going to show interest in these engines? Probably the Eurofighter nations - but no, then they would be already funding it.

 
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Belagutti

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Backgrounder from French Safran asked India to invest close to 6000 Cr and committed to investing 3000cr of its investment as part of Rafale offset obligations to revive India’s now stalled Kaveri engine program French offer was considered too pricey by DRDO. DRDO already has invested over 3000cr in the Kaveri engine program but an additional investment for 6000 cr only to get core section of M-88-3 engines which included custom modification of the new Kaveri engine with Indian developed technology, and later certification of the modified engine along with ToT cud hv meant that SAFRAN enjoyed Royalty for its tech for decades to come acc to DRDO at least for Tejas Mk1A and MWF program they are sticking with USA's GE F404-IN20 (84 kN) and 414-GE-INS6 (98 kN) turbofan engines and Even for Naval Mk2 program, GE’s F414 turbofan engines are preferred but the problem with GE hs being is that these engines are brought off the shelf n hs no option of even local license assembly let alone any ToT of Key core tech Prototypes of 5th Gen AMCA Stealth fighter jets will use GE’s F414 in the initial stage bt d aircraft requires more powerful engine which cn generate 110kN of Thrust class over what current GE engines cn generate 98kN for which GE hs offered India its F414 Enhanced Engine which it says will be ready by 2022. F414 Enhanced Engine which has been under development for the US Navy for its F/A-18 E/F and EA 18G aircraft fleet will be able to generate around 116kN Thrust class which is 18% improvement over Standard F414 engines. GE believes F414 Enhanced Engines which will go into production by 2022 n already hs orders worth $630 mn frm US Navy to replace older engines in its aircraft will make it a perfect fit for d AMCA pro since the developmental cost of the program already is funded by US Navy. British Defence Secretary in his visit to India in 2017 had offered India to jointly develop a new engine based on EuroJet turbofan engine which powers Eurofighter Typhoon. The UK already has invited India to co-develop a 6th-gen fighter called the Tempest but o decision has been taken yet but India is yet to take a call on co-development offer on both engine and new 6th generation fighter aircraft Wth the United Kingdom. Military think tanks in India have called for the revival of Kaveri engine program so that India is not left behind in the development of mil-grade turbo class engines for its fighter n transport aircraft programs and hv called upon Modi govt to inject program wth more funds n new engineers n scientist along wth the participation of private sector to kick start the program again. DRDO officials believe the key decision on the direction of the program will be taking place next few months, will DRDO get-go head to have talks with RR or new core team will be formed to develop new higher thrust engines with fresh funding what will chart the future course of military jet engines development in India.

My take- US offers cutting edge tech only when we are close to realizing it ourselves (in this case with help from RR). Can the people handling these negotiations arm-twist GE to part with IPR of the 116kN thrust 414EPE?
Advantages - dev cost already footed by USN and ready by 2022. Enhancements are incremental and can be retrofitted into all F414s as per https://idrw.org/ex-drdo-chief-vk-saraswat-to-suggest-a-path-for-advanced-110kn-thrust-class-engine/
At stake is a chokehold on one of the world's largest jet engine markets with a requirement of 1400+ engines over 3-4 decades for LCA Mk2 and AMCA.
What possible I think would be License production of F 414EPE, which would be the most advanced engine ever produced in India, still a great option, I think the other offer is just another Deja Vu.
 

IndianHawk

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More interestingly perhaps is Rolls-Royce and EuroJet's plan to increase the output 30% above the baseline specification as a Stage-2 modification. Such an upgrade will require more substantial plantwide changes including a new LP compressor and turbine and an improvement in the total pressure ratio. These upgrades would yield a new dry thrust of around 78kN (or 17,500lbf) with a reheated output of around 120kN (or 27,000lbf). The indications are that these improvements will come on stream between 2005 and 2010, in time for the Typhoon's Mid Life Upgrade expected around 2016.
This is exactly what we need.
78 kn dry and 120kn wet. Adjusted for Indian climate this will be perfect for AMCA .
 

Assassin 2.0

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NAL work on CMC
Looks like they are in quite advanced stage.

Processing and consolidation of advanced ceramics



The materials Science Division has been involved in research and development in the area of synthesis, processing and consolidation of advanced ceramic materials for potential applications in aerospace and other sectors of societal impact. Methodology has been optimised for preparing variety of fine ceramic powders for specific applications. Expertise has being developed on colloidal or wet processing of commercial or indigenous ceramic materials like alumina, silica, zircon, silicon carbide, silicon nitride, calcium phosphate etc., and their consolidation by slip casting and gel casting to fabricate some strategic components like after burner cups, ceramic radome, porous scaffolds etc. Continuous research effort in the area of shaping has lead to the development of a novel additive manufacturing method called “mouldless casting” of ceramics. Development of EBC materials and coating systems for CfSiC composites for high temperature engine applications is under progress
 

Assassin 2.0

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NAL work on CMC
Looks like they are in quite advanced stage.

Processing and consolidation of advanced ceramics



The materials Science Division has been involved in research and development in the area of synthesis, processing and consolidation of advanced ceramic materials for potential applications in aerospace and other sectors of societal impact. Methodology has been optimised for preparing variety of fine ceramic powders for specific applications. Expertise has being developed on colloidal or wet processing of commercial or indigenous ceramic materials like alumina, silica, zircon, silicon carbide, silicon nitride, calcium phosphate etc., and their consolidation by slip casting and gel casting to fabricate some strategic components like after burner cups, ceramic radome, porous scaffolds etc. Continuous research effort in the area of shaping has lead to the development of a novel additive manufacturing method called “mouldless casting” of ceramics. Development of EBC materials and coating systems for CfSiC composites for high temperature engine applications is under progress
max-phase-composites (3).png
 

Assassin 2.0

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NAL work on CMC
Looks like they are in quite advanced stage.

Processing and consolidation of advanced ceramics



The materials Science Division has been involved in research and development in the area of synthesis, processing and consolidation of advanced ceramic materials for potential applications in aerospace and other sectors of societal impact. Methodology has been optimised for preparing variety of fine ceramic powders for specific applications. Expertise has being developed on colloidal or wet processing of commercial or indigenous ceramic materials like alumina, silica, zircon, silicon carbide, silicon nitride, calcium phosphate etc., and their consolidation by slip casting and gel casting to fabricate some strategic components like after burner cups, ceramic radome, porous scaffolds etc. Continuous research effort in the area of shaping has lead to the development of a novel additive manufacturing method called “mouldless casting” of ceramics. Development of EBC materials and coating systems for CfSiC composites for high temperature engine applications is under progress
For those which are interested in CMC
WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio -- AFRL collaborated with industry for an Advanced Manufacturing Propulsion Initiative (AMPI) to increase material removal rates for profile machining of ceramic matrix composites (CMC). The successful effort, which achieved removal rates increased by more than two orders of magnitude, prompted transition of the accelerated machining technology to Pratt & Whitney, General Electric, and Rolls Royce machining vendors. Lighter than conventional materials and capable of operating effectively in high-temperature environments, CMC components increase gas turbine engine fuel efficiency. Their accelerated machining can save hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars. Applying this technology to a single set of F-35 aircraft engine parts would reduce related machining time by more than 100 hours and cut associated tooling costs in half. Potential applications include nozzles, blades, vanes, flame holders, and brakes.

The AFRL-industry engineering team--which included participants from TechSolve, General Dynamics Information Technology, General Electric, Rolls Royce, Pratt & Whitney, ATK-COIC, and Goodrich--conducted value stream analysis (VSA) of CMC-based vanes and exhaust nozzles proposed for use in F135 and F136 turbine engines. In every case, the team's VSA activity identified machining as a driver of high cost and lengthy cycle time in the delivery of high-performance CMC components. Accordingly, the AMPI team worked to develop a collaborative approach for addressing issues inherent to machining CMCs.

Very hard, brittle, and difficult to cut, ceramic materials are not conducive to machining via traditional methods. Finding cost-effective and efficient ways to machine these materials without damaging them, while crucial, poses a substantial challenge. The situation is further complicated by the nature of CMCs, which are a combination of two ceramic materials and are consequently even more difficult to cut. During this AMPI effort, the researchers validated that improvements made to various aspects of tooling (e.g., materials, geometry, cooling, fixturing) were key to reducing machining cycle time. They likewise demonstrated that such tooling advances reduced associated costs by 80%. The team investigated machining parameters as well, ultimately implementing advanced cutting parameters that increased both depth of cut (from .025 to .100 in.) and feed rate (from 3 to 200 in./min). The researchers used several CMCs in evaluating the effects of their various process improvements and, further, shared important outcomes with major engine contractors involved in F135 and F136 engine production
 

Assassin 2.0

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Mouldless casting of ceramics (MCC)


Materials Science Division, CSIR-NAL has developed a unique shaping method called Mouldless Casting for advanced ceramic materials to fabricate scaffold structures having continuous channeled pores in 3 directions. This is an additive manufacturing method which involves mouldless fabrication of shapes through computer aided designing and layer by layer deposition of ceramic slurry/paste by a computer controlled device.



Brief description of the technique

The mouldless casting method developed at NAL, involves colloidal processing of advanced ceramic powder in de-ionised water. The ceramic slurry having required consistency and rheology is achieved based on the surface chemistry of fine particles dispersed in a liquid medium. High solid loaded slurry having shear thinning behavior is extruded through a fine nozzle and deposited in X, Y direction and built in z direction into a scaffold structure having continuous channeled porosity. The team has worked extensively and optimized the method for few engineering ceramic materials like alumina, zirconia and bioceramic calcium phosphate. The product made are sintered to near theoretical density and the physical, microstructural and mechanical properties are evaluated in comparison with those obtained for samples prepared by other established techniques like slip casting and gel casting. As an outcome of this investigation the scaffolds fabricated from calcium phosphate ceramics were tested for its intended application in the biomedical field and proved biocompatible through in vitro and animal studies.



This technique involves synchronized knowledge of Chemistry, Materials Science, Ceramic science, Basics of manufacturing and designing.
mouldless-casting-of-ceramics.png


 

ARVION

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The drunkards betryal's

At the center of these engine efforts is Tusas Engine Industries, a state-controlled engine maker.
TEI announced June 19 that it successfully tested its locally made TJ300 miniature turbojet engine, which the company produced for medium-range anti-ship missiles. The engine features a thrust rating of 1.3 kilonewtons.
Company officials say the TJ300 engine’s more advanced, future versions could power larger anti-ship cruise missiles and land-attack cruise missiles. Turkey hopes to power its anti-ship and land-attack cruise missiles with locally developed engines.
“The effort is about ending dependency on imported designs,” a TEI official said. Turkey currently imports miniature air-breathing engines from Microturbo — a unit of French company Safran — to power its domestically developed cruise missiles.
Separately, Turkey’s Kale Group is developing a larger, albeit miniature turbojet engine called the KTJ-3200. It has a 3.2-kilonewton thrust rating, and will power the Atmaca and SOM missile systems. On a much bigger scale, Kale Group has ambitions to develop an engine to power the TF-X.

2017, Kale Group and British company Rolls-Royce launched a joint venture to develop aircraft engines for Turkey, initially targeting the TF-X. But the £100 million (U.S. $124 million) deal was effectively put on hold due to uncertainties over technology transfer. In December, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavusoğlu said the government is keen to revive talks with Rolls-Royce.

A year before the Kale Group-Rolls-Royce partnership, Turkish Aerospace Industries — a sister company of TEI — signed a $125 million heads of agreement with U.K.-based firm BAE Systems to collaborate on the first development phase of the TF-X. Turkey originally planned to fly the TF-X in 2023, but aerospace officials are now eyeing 2025 at the earliest.
TEI is also developing the TS1400, a turboshaft engine it intends to power the T625 Gökbey, a utility and transport helicopter developed and built by TAI. The Gökbey currently flies with the CTS-800A turboshaft engine supplied by Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company, a joint venture between American firm Honeywell and Rolls-Royce.
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ARVION

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Morale of the story turkey paid by the a 120 million us dollar's half was paid Qatar got instead in tai TFX, from fear of losing the growing market of Qatar military aircrafts for the fighter aircrafts cancelled the contract by asking inflated prices, turkey cant pay for 200 engine got cancelled.

Better stick to the F 414 PEP Engine's and divert fund to k 11 engine with reliable partner's.
 

kunal1123

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For What it's worth ...


http://idrw.org/detail-report-drdo-rolls-royce-jv-for-110-kn-jet-engine-soon-rolls-royce-india/
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Rolls Royce offered to use a new core design to co-develop a new engine that will use a new larger Fan with high distortion tolerance and surge margin designed by DRDO along with an Afterburner module designed jointly by GTRE and Rolls Royce. New Fan developed by DRDO also has stealth features and anti-icing systems which are much suited for modern 5th generation fighter jets. Sources have informed idrw.org that the new engine core will not be based on the framed Eurojet EJ200 low bypass turbofan used as the powerplant of the Eurofighter Typhoon which was co-developed with Rolls Royce technology but due to multiple IP rights ownership in the EuroJet Turbo GmbH consortium which builds them, Core proposed will be designed from scratch with IP rights with India.





Rolls Royce claims that the new engine core will be more advanced than Eurojet EJ200 Core and will feature its new thermal signature management which with New DRDO Fan will be used to cool both the turbine as well as the exhausted air. The engine will feature a more effective Starter generator for effective use in the varying Indian climate conditions and the Dry weight of the engine will be less than 1 tonne with core and fan hardened to operate in the dusty conditions of India.


Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Indian Rare Earth Limited (IREL), Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited (MIDHANI ), and Bharat Forge are some of the proposed public-private sector companies which will play a vital part in the development 110 kN Jet engine which will be headed by DRDO-Rolls Royce Jv.
 

airtel

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For What it's worth ...


http://idrw.org/detail-report-drdo-rolls-royce-jv-for-110-kn-jet-engine-soon-rolls-royce-india/
.
.
.
.


Rolls Royce offered to use a new core design to co-develop a new engine that will use a new larger Fan with high distortion tolerance and surge margin designed by DRDO along with an Afterburner module designed jointly by GTRE and Rolls Royce. New Fan developed by DRDO also has stealth features and anti-icing systems which are much suited for modern 5th generation fighter jets. Sources have informed idrw.org that the new engine core will not be based on the framed Eurojet EJ200 low bypass turbofan used as the powerplant of the Eurofighter Typhoon which was co-developed with Rolls Royce technology but due to multiple IP rights ownership in the EuroJet Turbo GmbH consortium which builds them, Core proposed will be designed from scratch with IP rights with India.





Rolls Royce claims that the new engine core will be more advanced than Eurojet EJ200 Core and will feature its new thermal signature management which with New DRDO Fan will be used to cool both the turbine as well as the exhausted air. The engine will feature a more effective Starter generator for effective use in the varying Indian climate conditions and the Dry weight of the engine will be less than 1 tonne with core and fan hardened to operate in the dusty conditions of India.


Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Indian Rare Earth Limited (IREL), Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited (MIDHANI ), and Bharat Forge are some of the proposed public-private sector companies which will play a vital part in the development 110 kN Jet engine which will be headed by DRDO-Rolls Royce Jv.

I think a new fan and after burning module are already developed by DRDO

 

Physx32

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Kaveri the name given to India's own jet engine itself is the point of controversial river for the two state of India
No doubt there will be delays
I don't know why we don't use ISRO expert who worked for cryogenic engine which is among the best in world
My dream is no foreign help
Rocket engines are fundamentally different from gas turbines. Although a turbopump is used in liquid fuelled engines, it's combustion temperature is only around 850-1000K. Air-breathing turbines reach far higher temperatures. This is why ISRO scientists and engineers are not suitable for this job.
 

WolfPack86

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Detail Report: DRDO-Rolls Royce Jv for 110 kN Jet engine soon: Rolls Royce India

Louise Donaghey, Senior Vice President – India and South Asia for Rolls-Royce Defence has confirmed to India Global Week, that company is close to announcing a partnership to co-create a new engine with India. a tweet put out by India Global Week reads ” We are planning to change the game, close to an agreement between two governments to co-create a new jet engine, India will get the IP. “The vision of Rolls Royce for India.”: Louise Donaghey, Senior Vice President, India, and southeast Asia Rolls Royce. In 2017, India and U.K. had agreed to cooperate on developing advanced defense products such as the gas turbine engine which was confirmed by the visiting U.K. Secretary of State for Defence Sir Michael Fallon. Kaveri project which was shelved due to lack of desired thrust levels achieved was to be revived with help of France and GTRE and Safran Group were working together till price steep developmental cost quoted lead to the fallout of talks. India and the US also had formed joint working groups on jet engine technology and carrier technology under the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) but it was later dismantled after several rounds of talks failed to break the deadlock over Transfer of Technology (TOT) of the core section of the engine which India was demanding from the US. GE developed the F414-EPE engine which generates 116 kN of Thrust class was supposed to used as a base to co-develop a new engine of 110 kN of Thrust class to power India’s 5.5 Generation AMCA Mk2 fighter jets and later also in TEDBF and MWF-Mk2 aircraft. F414-INS6 single-engine variant developed for MWF-Mk2 aircraft will also be used in TEDBF and AMCA Mk1 variants.

Rolls Royce offered to use a new core design to co-develop a new engine that will use a new larger Fan with high distortion tolerance and surge margin designed by DRDO along with an Afterburner module designed jointly by GTRE and Rolls Royce. New Fan developed by DRDO also has stealth features and anti-icing systems which are much suited for modern 5th generation fighter jets. Sources have informed idrw.org that the new engine core will not be based on the framed Eurojet EJ200 low bypass turbofan used as the powerplant of the Eurofighter Typhoon which was co-developed with Rolls Royce technology but due to multiple IP rights ownership in the EuroJet Turbo GmbH consortium which builds them, Core proposed will be designed from scratch with IP rights with India.

Rolls Royce claims that the new engine core will be more advanced than Eurojet EJ200 Core and will feature its new thermal signature management which with New DRDO Fan will be used to cool both the turbine as well as the exhausted air. The engine will feature a more effective Starter generator for effective use in the varying Indian climate conditions and the Dry weight of the engine will be less than 1 tonne with core and fan hardened to operate in the dusty conditions of India. Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Indian Rare Earth Limited (IREL), Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited (MIDHANI ), and Bharat Forge are some of the proposed public-private sector companies which will play a vital part in the development 110 kN Jet engine which will be headed by DRDO-Rolls Royce Jv.
 

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