Kaveri Engine

[Assassin 2.0]

GE has no local facility in India where engines can be overhauled nor are they license manufactured in India. India ships these engines to GE Aviation factory in the United States when there are due to major overhaul or in cases it suffers from some core damage.

In peacetime we can send engines to US for service, repair and overhaul but what will we do in times of war?

In case of engines we have to send whole engine to US.
Imagine what will be the case if India goes with F-35 on the request of some fan boys?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Why Japan’s XF9 turbofan engine program might have some lessons for India’s Kaveri Engine Team.


After being snubbed by stiff US export control laws on sharing of 5th generation fighter aircraft technologies, Japan has taken upon itself to develop most of the technologies required for the development of a 5th generation fighter jet to be called F-3 while it continues to induct American made F-35 Stealth fighter jets in good numbers. According to latest media reports, F-3 design will be only confirmed in 2020 but it will much bigger aircraft then X-2 Shinshin Advanced Technology Demonstrator aircraft which flew in 2016 and many defense analysts predict that Japan is going for an F-22 class fighter jet which means it could have an MTOW of over 35 tonnes and to meet power demands of such Heavy class stealth fighter jet, Japan as developed and begun testing of XF-9-1 low-bypass turbofans developed by Ishikawa Heavy Industries (IHI). According to IHI, XF-9-1 is a low-bypass turbofan already which has already demonstrated 108kN of dry thrust and also has reached engine wet thrust requirement of 150kN thrust. XF9-1 prototype developed is close to the General Electric F110 in size, and is comparable to the Pratt & Whitney F119 in terms of thrust class. F119 turbofan engines are what powers F-22 fighter jets and have 116kN of dry thrust and 156kN wet thrust but XF-9-1 is half-meter shorter and 30 centimeters slimmer than the F-119, leaving more room for internal weapons. In 2016, when Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin experimental aircraft took to air for the first time and was to be used as a template for testing many of the technologies required for the F-3 program but it was mocked by many western and Chinese defense analysts after it was found that Japan used an under powered IHI developed XF5-1 low-bypass turbofan engines which barely generated 49kN of Wet thrust but many were in for shock and surprise when IHI showcased fully developed XF-9-1 prototypes in 2017 and started testing them in 2018. XF-9-1 prototype already has gone through Maximum verification thrust tests in 2018 and already demonstrated 108kN of dry and 150kN of wet thrust, IHI team which begin its research in the development of low-by pass turbofan engine in ’70s, started from developing a basic F3-IHI-30 engines (16.32 kN ) to power its T-4 Subsonic trainer and then later moved to develop XF3-400 engine (30kN) and later developed XF5-1engines (49kN) which became base to develop F-7 (60kN) engine which is used to power Kawasaki P-1 maritime patrol aircraft but Japan was still not able to develop any engine beyond 60kN Wet Thrust which was one of the reasons many mocked them when they announced to develop 5th generation fighter jet with an indigenous engine. Back home in India. Our low-bypass turbofan experts have developed the Kaveri prototype (K9) engine which has been successfully tested and also demonstrated 83Kn of Wet thrust at Gromov Flight Research Institute in Moscow and even has been certified by French Safran for flight-testing onboard a test-bed aircraft. Current 83Kn of Wet thrust is not enough to power 83 LCA-Tejas Mk1A or even older Mk1 variants but headway in the program do show that influx of additional funding and integration of other agencies along with additional manpower, along with organizations changes in the GTRE can help develop an engine which can be used to develop a wet thrust range from 110Kn to 125Kn. A Successful Kaveri engine is a necessity not only for the AMCA program but also for the upcoming Ghatak UCAV, SPORTS ( Lead in fighter), Medium Weight Tejas MkII, Naval TEDBF, Naval-AMCA programs. Spin-offs of the Kaveri engine program can be used to develop small turbofan engines for future military cargo and transport planes in the near future. Instead of running behind the United States for Joint venture and transfer of technology for the core technology, which they will never agree to, India should instead focus on developing K10 engine based on the experience and on the transfer of technology it has received from Russian AL-31F and RD-33 engines to develop a new engine which can meet western standards, but our immediate focus should be to complete flight trials of the K-9 engines on a test-bed aircraft preferably first on a twin-engine Su-30MKI powered by K9 and AL-31F engine and later on LCA-Tejas Prototypes so that at least a Dry variant of the engine generating 50kN of thrust will be ready for production for the Ghatak UCAV program

 

[Assassin 2.0]

A key challenge in the AMCA programme is to develop a new engine, powerful enough to permit super-cruising. For now, AMCA designers are working with twin General Electric (GE) F-414 engines – which is also being used, in a single- engine configuration, to power the Tejas Mark 2.

However, this engine is not powerful enough for super-cruising in all configurations. “Each F-414 engine generates a maximum thrust of 98 KiloNewtons (KN), and in Indian climatic conditions that effectively reduces to 90 KN. We have calculated that an AMCA, with the configuration the IAF has specified, requires a thrust of about 220 KN (in Indian conditions) for super-cruising. That means we need twin engines, each generating 110 KN thrust in Indian conditions,” says Deodhare.

A clutch of DRDO laboratories, led by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bengaluru, is working to develop the AMCA engine. With the Kaveri engine, GTRE had managed to generate a maximum thrust of 83 KN. Now the target is 50 per cent higher.

Former Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had estimated the AMCA’s development cost at about $4 billion – a major share of which would go into the engine. In 2015, India harnessed American expertise by setting up a “joint working group” (JWG) to co-develop jet engine technology. But on October 24, US Under Secretary of Defence Ellen Lord revealed the JWG had been scrapped since US export control laws safeguarded the technology that the DRDO wanted.

There is also an expectation, so far unrealised, that French engine maker, Safran, could assist with developing a suitable jet engine, as a part of its offset obligations relating to the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters.

( if we go by this report that means government is willing to spend 1-2 billion $ more on kaveri engine. Kaveri project is not dead BY ANY MEANS)

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Old picture.
Working on a Kaveri prototype at GTRE, Bangalore

 

[Raju Seth]

Old picture.
Working on a Kaveri prototype at GTRE, Bangalore

what is the current status?
ANy hope??

 

[Assassin 2.0]

what is the current status?
ANy hope??

Work under progress.
There is hope and hope only.
India cannot simply exist without jet engine technology. Just like cryogenic engines.
If we can start a jet engine development program in 80s then why we will shut it down in 2020? It's TRUE building these capabilities take time.
Seeing how we are progressing for indigenous development. Development of technologies like this will always stay relevant. Even for non military purpose for powering our Commercial airlines and marine gas turbine engines.

Kaveri project continues to be India strategic need for our Aviation industry.

Old kaveri already achieved 86KN and France claimed that 20% more work is required. Just see how japan started from 46KN engine kaveri on it's first try was able to achieve 86KN.

Now DRDO and GTRE is working to make it more lighter and fix heating issues and increase power by 110KN 50% power increase . And all of this looks quite achievable for now HUNT is on got searching some experienced partner who can support our development.
Air force is promised by GTRE that they will come forward with K-9 series engine that's why MARK-1 Of kaveri will have lesser power engine 90KN. But when higher Thrust K-9 will be installed capabilities of AMCA Will increase tremendously.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Work under progress.
There is hope and hope only.
India cannot simply exist without jet engine technology. Just like cryogenic engines.
If we can start a jet engine development program in 80s then why we will shut it down in 2020? It's TRUE building these capabilities take time.
Seeing how we are progressing for indigenous development. Development of technologies like this will always stay relevant. Even for non military purpose for powering our Commercial airlines and marine gas turbine engines.

Kaveri project continues to be India strategic need for our Aviation industry.

Old kaveri already achieved 86KN and France claimed that 20% more work is required.

Now DRDO and GTRE is working to make it more lighter and fix heating issues and increase power by 110KN 50% power increase . And all of this looks quite achievable for now HUNT is on got searching some experienced partner who can support our development.
Air force is promised by GTRE that they will come forward with K-9 series engine that's why MARK-1 Of kaveri will have lesser power engine 90KN. But when higher Thrust K-9 will be installed capabilities of AMCA Will increase tremendously.

Why are we not making use of the 86kn Kaveri engine on our Mig 29 jet.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Why are we not making use of the 86kn Kaveri engine on our Mig 29 jet.

Why we are not developing even better thing?
Government set to clear Rs 3,000 crore plan to develop engine for India's first UCAV.

Typical Indian thing this this report is of Jul 15, 2018, 01.50 PM but why till date there is no progress made no funds released?
No support from government and IAF was one of the biggest reason why India lacked the development in many areas.
I hope with new chief in power things will get better.



The Indian UCAV project is tentatively called Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft (AURA). The target is to get the system operational within eight years once the funds are cleared by the government, officials said. The original Kaveri project was meant to power the light combat aircraft but it got shelved as the engine could not deliver sufficient thrust for the fighter aircraft. In its revived avatar, the engine will be modified and its afterburners will be removed to power the first Indian UCAV.
While a similar plan was mooted by the state-run Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) during the term of the previous United Progressive Alliance government, the body had pegged the project cost at close to Rs 800 crore at the time.

Kaveri engine can be tuned to power drones.

 

[Raju Seth]

Work under progress.
There is hope and hope only.
India cannot simply exist without jet engine technology. Just like cryogenic engines.
If we can start a jet engine development program in 80s then why we will shut it down in 2020? It's TRUE building these capabilities take time.
Seeing how we are progressing for indigenous development. Development of technologies like this will always stay relevant. Even for non military purpose for powering our Commercial airlines and marine gas turbine engines.

Kaveri project continues to be India strategic need for our Aviation industry.

Old kaveri already achieved 86KN and France claimed that 20% more work is required. Just see how japan started from 46KN engine kaveri on it's first try was able to achieve 86KN.

Now DRDO and GTRE is working to make it more lighter and fix heating issues and increase power by 110KN 50% power increase . And all of this looks quite achievable for now HUNT is on got searching some experienced partner who can support our development.
Air force is promised by GTRE that they will come forward with K-9 series engine that's why MARK-1 Of kaveri will have lesser power engine 90KN. But when higher Thrust K-9 will be installed capabilities of AMCA Will increase tremendously.

86kn is lot of power,why engine is not being used on trainer or UAV program??,didnt heard of any progress on marine engine as well,the line "HUNT is on got searching some experienced partner who can support our development." makes u conclude,not much is happening.Its llike i have correct dress & big boobs,& we are rady to roll,just waiting for experienced partner to make me a bra,which can support them & we are good,classic govt labs answer
It is true engine is essential for us,but given past record of drdo & all,i think by the time they will comeup with ENGINE tech would have moved to electric engines,so .... bleh

 

[Assassin 2.0]

India needs to stop crying that it took so many years and we still doesn't have the engine and if we failed to do that so many years ago we will not be able to do it this time. Too.
To develop engine it requires political will and support and money.
Jet engine should be a never ending search we cannot stay away from development of jets and planes.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

...........................

 

[Defcon 1]

Work under progress.
There is hope and hope only.
India cannot simply exist without jet engine technology. Just like cryogenic engines.
If we can start a jet engine development program in 80s then why we will shut it down in 2020? It's TRUE building these capabilities take time.
Seeing how we are progressing for indigenous development. Development of technologies like this will always stay relevant. Even for non military purpose for powering our Commercial airlines and marine gas turbine engines.

Kaveri project continues to be India strategic need for our Aviation industry.

Old kaveri already achieved 86KN and France claimed that 20% more work is required. Just see how japan started from 46KN engine kaveri on it's first try was able to achieve 86KN.

Now DRDO and GTRE is working to make it more lighter and fix heating issues and increase power by 110KN 50% power increase . And all of this looks quite achievable for now HUNT is on got searching some experienced partner who can support our development.
Air force is promised by GTRE that they will come forward with K-9 series engine that's why MARK-1 Of kaveri will have lesser power engine 90KN. But when higher Thrust K-9 will be installed capabilities of AMCA Will increase tremendously.

Old kaveri never achieved more than 75KN. Don't understand why do people keep pulling out such figures from their a$$ without proofs. Use some brains. F404 is a 82 KN engine. If kaveri had achieved 86kn, LCA mk1 would have been powered by kaveri instead of F404

 

[Defcon 1]

86kn is lot of power,why engine is not being used on trainer or UAV program??,didnt heard of any progress on marine engine as well,the line "HUNT is on got searching some experienced partner who can support our development." makes u conclude,not much is happening.Its llike i have correct dress & big boobs,& we are rady to roll,just waiting for experienced partner to make me a bra,which can support them & we are good,classic govt labs answer
It is true engine is essential for us,but given past record of drdo & all,i think by the time they will comeup with ENGINE tech would have moved to electric engines,so .... bleh

Because 86kn was never achieved thats why.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Because 86kn was never achieved thats why.

My bad i missed typed it was able to achieve 82KN but heating issues were there. And it's still overweight by 150 kgs.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Some documentation about GTX 37-14U engine. These are from 1985.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Some engineer working on old GTX prototypes.
Many people think that kaveri was our first jet engine development program but in reality 3 more prototypes were created before development of kaveri.

Russian experts were available for fuckin 1000 $ a month goddammit our government never cared about such big things. They were busy in playing dirty politics rather than creating national assets.

 

[Defcon 1]

My bad i missed typed it was able to achieve 82KN but heating issues were there. And it's still overweight by 150 kgs.

GTTT presentation is a good source but according to some better sources such as DRDO chief himself and Saurabh Jha, the thrust was 75 KN. It must be noted that DRDO chief's interview was taken in Feb 2019 whereas GTTT ppt is from July 2018.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/a...ckly-build-bigger-jets-says-drdo-chief-733937

https://www.deccanherald.com/content/607212/foreign-expertise-key-fire-up.html

 

[Assassin 2.0]

GTTT presentation is a good source but according to some better sources such as DRDO chief himself and Saurabh Jha, the thrust was 75 KN. It must be noted that DRDO chief's interview was taken in Feb 2019 whereas GTTT ppt is from July 2018.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/a...ckly-build-bigger-jets-says-drdo-chief-733937

https://www.deccanherald.com/content/607212/foreign-expertise-key-fire-up.html

Yess.

Sirji i read in some reports that it successfully created 72KN in 2009-2010. Who knows it can be tuned in recent year's to project slightly higher thrust? But at point of 82KN it was not stable enough?
Anyways it doesn't matter because IAF increased the demand which GTRE couldn't full fill because of its limited budget.

T Venkat Krishniah, former Additional Director at GTRE, said; “The Kaveri has almost produced the thrust that the original (1989) ASQRs had specified, 80kN. But now because of the increased drag in the LCA the thrust needed is 90 kN plus and the weight of the existing Kaveri also needs to be reduced by over 200 kgs. Without losing face the GTRE can go in for a new engine. The existing Kaveri can find application in the UCAV(unmanned combat vehicle) since there is enough thrust for it and weight will also be drastically reduced since the they does not need an after burner.”

 

[Defcon 1]

Yess.

Sirji i read in some reports that it successfully created 72KN in 2009-2010. Who knows it can be tuned in recent year's to project slightly higher thrust? But at point of 82KN it was not stable enough?
Anyways it doesn't matter because IAF increased the demand which GTRE couldn't full fill because of its limited budget.

T Venkat Krishniah, former Additional Director at GTRE, said; “The Kaveri has almost produced the thrust that the original (1989) ASQRs had specified, 80kN. But now because of the increased drag in the LCA the thrust needed is 90 kN plus and the weight of the existing Kaveri also needs to be reduced by over 200 kgs. Without losing face the GTRE can go in for a new engine. The existing Kaveri can find application in the UCAV(unmanned combat vehicle) since there is enough thrust for it and weight will also be drastically reduced since the they does not need an after burner.”

Yes agreed. There is anyways no clear information present in public.

Anyways, the non afterburning version of Kaveri will be used in Ghatak UCAV. So its not like nobody will use this engine.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Orpheous 703
And other vintage GTRE projects.