Kaveri Engine

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Klimov VK-2500PS-03 turboshaft, 2,400 hp
http://www.klimov.ru/en/production/helicopter/VK-2500/

@HariPrasad-1

2400HP is roughly 1800KW and for Indian needs, it is 2000KW.

 

[Jackd]

Mi17 has 2000KW engines. So, that is what our MRH will also need

Mi17 v5 engine are not 2000kw ones
Engines:
TV3-117VM or TV3-117VM Ser. 02:
number × takeoff power,
2 × 2200 shp
3980*

VK-2500-03:
number × takeoff power,
2 × 2400 shp

Source: http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/helicopters/mi-17v-5/

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Mi17 v5 engine are not 2000kw ones
Engines:
TV3-117VM or TV3-117VM Ser. 02:
number × takeoff power,
2 × 2200 shp
3980*

VK-2500-03:
number × takeoff power,
2 × 2400 shp

Source: http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/helicopters/mi-17v-5/

2400HP = 1800KW. This is Mi17 engine power

Adding 10% as additional Indian requirement for high altitude conditions, we get 2000KW need for IMRH

 

[darshan978]

...............................

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Mi17 has 2000KW engines. So, that is what our MRH will also need

May be. Once the parameters are freezed, we can have the exact idea of requirement of power plant.

 

[darshan978]

new fan blades? new kaveri fan? whats that guys can any one explain?
btw found from eprocurement tender site

Edited:-
New fan blades for Kaveri? What is that guys, can any one explain?
By the way I found this from eprocurement tender site.

Mod: Does it look more readable now? Please try to use capitalization, punctuation. Avoid typing like this is an SMS box.

 

[darshan978]

looks like new engine prototype in making...

 

[G10]

looks like new engine prototype in making...

Is this requirement for CAD. I mean GTRE has no CAD software and no one to make this in 3D CAD. Even students at IIT can do it.

 

[republic_roi97]

Guys let's keep this thread for discussions regarding Kaveri Engine, for any other indigenous aircraft propulsion project discussion, let's use this thread

Indigenous Aircraft Propulsion Systems

 

[su30mki2017]

The disintegration of engine parts was due to resonance of high frequency of vibration of engine parts .this problem is common to all equipments that are designed to withstand high frequency vibrations .

Thats why even the military men are not allowed to march past on the bridges. because in normal circumstances the bridge can take the load of 10 times the military men's weight. But when they march past they create a vibration in a frequency of distinct order that can destroy the bridge.

this phenomenon was only found out after a hanging brigde swaying in the wind just broke loose when it encountered the same vibration frequency problem in US.



The disintegration of engine parts was due to frequency resonance vibration of third order which was found out in test facilities in russia. And solved long back.


It has nothing to do with engine design. The facilities for testing the engine for this kind of vibration frequency problem is not here.That is why it took it's time to get resolved.

But still some people harp on this old resolved issue unable to understand the nature of the problem and how it was resolved naively saying the engine parts disintegrate in kaveri.

Now the only thing needed is tech for light weight high temp enduring production grade single crystal tech to produce higher power of more than 90 kn and engine weight reduction exercise.

that too because LCA has turned out to be

Finally it was resolved after GTRE got this test facility in Russia.

Vibration problem and the solution solved by US (p&w) in this video

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Okk............ On your first point, could you kindly point towards any article where it is written that India manufactures it from scratch without imports?

Now coming to Kaveri, it uses DS blades and not SCB, agreed. But Al-31FP does make use of SCB. Now could you kindly enlighten me on the point of not using the so called ToT in preparing SCB for Kaveri. Coming to Rhenium point to which you go back again and again, lets take it into consideration too. But eventually India is contemplating of using it in AMCA with 100Kn+ thrust. Now to achieve this India would have to eventually move to SCB sooner or later.

Now Single Crystal could be of any super alloy. But to save myself from your Rhenium logic, let me give you one example.

View attachment 28916
Now could you kindly point me where is Rhenium (Re) in this alloy?

Manufacturing a part based on a provided blueprint under license doesn't mean you would have ToT for that. Even China does manufacture Al-31F for their J-10. But only recently they were able to create SCB for their WS-15 engine (If I have to believe them).

And please don't bring unrelated things like Aircraft engine in a thread which is discussing about artillery.

Here is the link to my explanation about Al31FP being made in India:
https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...supersonic-fighter.76545/page-13#post-1450905

Read the entire threads after this as many people had many questions to ask and they have been answered in the thread. You were part of this thread xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx How many times should anyone tell the same thing again and again?

About why SCB is not used in Kaveri, I have again told that Rhenium is the reason. SCB has 3 generations. The first generation does not need Rhenium but the second and third generation needs rhenium. Al31FP definitely uses 1st gen SCB or DS blades. The first and second generation DS don't require rhenium. The second generation DSB also performs better than first generation SCB. More has been discussed in this forum itself. I will give the thread for it:

The current blades already have ceramic coatings to enable about 300 kelvin/celsius increase in TET. The SCB blades are unlikely and it is likely to be 2nd generation DS blades.

SC blades have 3 generations. First generation has no rhenium while second and third have 3% and 6% rhenium. The TET increase is 40 degrees every generation. In case of DS, the 1st generation DS is superior to first generation SC blades as blades are rotating with a directional force. The 2nd generation SCB is better than 2nd generation DS by 25-30 celsius/kelvin due to rhenium in SCB. So, overall, the difference between 3rd generation SCB and 2nd generation DS is about 70 kelvin.

But the advantage of DS is that it does not require rhenium and hence not dependent on imported resource. The TET difference of 70 celsius is not much and the engine can be made with some compromise on the lifespan. For comparison, TET of F404 is 1700K, Al31F is 1687K while M88 (which has rhenium) is 1850K. So, a TET of 1750K is enough to give the required thrust with slightly higher TWR than M88 and lower lifespan but good enough for domestic production.

India already has 3rd gen SCB too. But rhenium is a problem for independence and hence we make 2nd generation DS. The difference between the DS and SCB are as follows:
1st generation: DS= SCB +10 celsius
2nd generation: DS +30 celsius = SCB ( 3% rhenium)

3rd generation DS has rhenium and hence is not considered.

The TET of engines like EJ200 with 2nd generation SCB goes to about 1530celsius. The TET of Kaveri with DS can go upto 1460 celsius. There is no need to use SCB. The problems created by rhenium dependency on foreign countries is not worth it. It is best to avoid the problem and use 2nd generation DS. There will be either TWR reduction in engine or life reduction of engines but that is still better than depending on foreign imports for rare metal rhenium.

Advaidhya's Correction: 2nd generation DS is only 30K less TET than 2nd gen DS. Hence, the figure for Kaveri with 2nd generation DS must be 1500Celsius, not 1460.

SCB only helps increase engine life or increase TWR (either of two). If India is willing to use an engine with 1000 hour life instead of 2000 hour life, there is no need for SCB. This is definitely manageable.

I think I have told this several times before and yet you keep insisting that SCB is important.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Even when AMCA is to be made, it will be made with 2nd generation DS with some compromise on engine life and TWR instead of using 2nd or 3rd generation SCB which will be hard to make and can be subject to embargoes during war. 100-110kN engines are used even in older planes like F15 which uses PW100 without any rhenium. So, some compromise of TWR in return for high quantity manufacturing is definitely welcome step.

Manufacturing under license from raw material is called ToT! As long as manufacturing is done in India, it is ToT. ToT does not mean that Russia should teach Indians metallurgy course! And engine metallurgy came to artillery thread because you poked the topic of metallurgy.

Mod: Post edited. Avoid over reaction.

 

[Chinmoy]

Here is the link to my explanation about Al31FP being made in India:
https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...supersonic-fighter.76545/page-13#post-1450905

Read the entire threads after this as many people had many questions to ask and they have been answered in the thread. You were part of this thread and yet you act as an incorrigible person who refuses to reason. How many times should anyone tell the same thing again and again?

About why SCB is not used in Kaveri, I have again told that Rhenium is the reason. SCB has 3 generations. The first generation does not need Rhenium but the second and third generation needs rhenium. Al31FP definitely uses 1st gen SCB or DS blades. The first and second generation DS don't require rhenium. The second generation DSB also performs better than first generation SCB. More has been discussed in this forum itself. I will give the thread for it:



_________________________________________________________________________________________

Even when AMCA is to be made, it will be made with 2nd generation DS with some compromise on engine life and TWR instead of using 2nd or 3rd generation SCB which will be hard to make and can be subject to embargoes during war. 100-110kN engines are used even in older planes like F15 which uses PW100 without any rhenium. So, some compromise of TWR in return for high quantity manufacturing is definitely welcome step.

Manufacturing under license from raw material is called ToT! As long as manufacturing is done in India, it is ToT. ToT does not mean that Russia should teach Indians metallurgy course! And engine metallurgy came to artillery thread because you poked the topic of metallurgy.

When you talk about ToT, you are talking of a huge criteria. Simply stating that since we manufacture Jet engine based on a blue print design provided to us doesn't mean we are making it. For start the ToT in between Russia and India on Jet engine is all about its part manufacturing based on Russian design. Neither they have transferred the know how of engine design, nor the know how of raw material production. So under ToT of Russian engines, we are literally doing a screwdriver job under Russian supervision.

Let me quote from your post.

“The AL31FP engine powers the Su30 MKI and has been manufactured from the raw material stage by HAL. All the components, including heavy forgings, are manufactured at HAL,” said T Suvarna Raju, CMD.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...-50th-al31fp-engine-to-iaf/article9920705.ece

This is the article you quoted right? Now pay attention to the term used by T S Raju which I underlined. Do you know the difference between MANUFACTURING and
Let me quote from your post.

“The AL31FP engine powers the Su30 MKI and has been manufactured from the raw material stage by HAL. All the components, including heavy forgings, are manufactured at HAL,” said T Suvarna Raju, CMD.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...-50th-al31fp-engine-to-iaf/article9920705.ece

This is the article you quoted right? Now pay attention to the term used by T S Raju which I underlined. I am sure you know the difference between MANUFACTURING and PRODUCTION, but let me just present it again to you.

Now look at the second point under MANUFACTURING.

Now look at this report.

Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html

Now India could manufacture all the engine components in India, but it would have to procure the raw material for that from Russia. Now production of raw material and alloys does come under metallurgy which is not done in India. So when you say that Russia has provided us complete ToT of Jet engine, you are factually wrong here.

On the second part, when I said that inspite of Russians providing us SCB tech under ToT, why haven't we developed one for Kaveri, you again stepped aside and brought forth the Rhenium logic. Now here you would be contradicting yourself because Al-31F uses Titanium alloy in its blade instead of Rhenium. Now if they have provided us complete ToT of Engine, why are we still going for DSB instead of SCB?

Russia has provide us ToT of engine manufacturing, not the ToT of engine tech. So hopefully now you see where you were wrong in saying that Russians has provided complete ToT of engine to us.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Now India could manufacture all the engine components in India, but it would have to procure the raw material for that from Russia. Now production of raw material and alloys does come under metallurgy which is not done in India. So when you say that Russia has provided us complete ToT of Jet engine, you are factually wrong here.

Raw material is unprocessed and not processed manufactured material. Your chart is also including services which is irrelevant in the context and hence not applicable. Also, HAL is not a mining company to have its own Raw material.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

This is 2014 rticle and it says that 88% Al31FP by parts is made in India. I have told several times that it was in 2015 that India started to make all the AL31FP engine in India. This is also something I have said in the thread I gave you. WHy are you quoting old articles?

On the second part, when I said that inspite of Russians providing us SCB tech under ToT, why haven't we developed one for Kaveri, you again stepped aside and brought forth the Rhenium logic. Now here you would be contradicting yourself because Al-31F uses Titanium alloy in its blade instead of Rhenium. Now if they have provided us complete ToT of Engine, why are we still going for DSB instead of SCB?

Why don't you read my posts about the generations of SCB and DS? Al31FP even if it uses SCB, it is of first generation. First generation SCB don't ue rhenium. 2nd gen SCB has 3% rhenium while 3rd gen has 6%. The generation of SCB is based on amount of rhenium. So, there is no way India can make better SCB without rhenium. Al31FP engine is not upto the mark and the metallurgy in it is unfit for Kaveri. That is why we will use 2nd generation DS which will be better than 1st generation SCB but have no rhenium.

 

[Chinmoy]

Raw material is unprocessed and not processed manufactured material. Your chart is also including services which is irrelevant in the context and hence not applicable. Also, HAL is not a mining company to have its own Raw material.


This is 2014 rticle and it says that 88% Al31FP by parts is made in India. I have told several times that it was in 2015 that India started to make all the AL31FP engine in India. This is also something I have said in the thread I gave you. WHy are you quoting old articles?


Why don't you read my posts about the generations of SCB and DS? Al31FP even if it uses SCB, it is of first generation. First generation SCB don't ue rhenium. 2nd gen SCB has 3% rhenium while 3rd gen has 6%. The generation of SCB is based on amount of rhenium. So, there is no way India can make better SCB without rhenium. Al31FP engine is not upto the mark and the metallurgy in it is unfit for Kaveri. That is why we will use 2nd generation DS which will be better than 1st generation SCB but have no rhenium.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Who said that HAL is a mining company and would have to produce its own raw material? DO you even know what is a raw material in terms of engine manufacturing? By your logic HAL is a forging company to forge all the titanium based heavy forgings right?

ISRO got rocket engine tech from Russia and subsequently passed on the tech to other companies which does produce most of the sub components of Indian rocket engine now. Even in case of Su-30MKI, HAL and DRDO passed on ToT obtained from Russians to many subvendors for material production. Why not the same for Engine alloy parts?

You are quick to point the time line of the report, but just turned a blind eye to the fact which states that under the agreement, India would have to procure raw material from Russia and the part which states that Russia would not part with the alloy tech. xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx HAL is a manufacturing agency and its simply fabricating parts based on design provided by Russia under Russian supervision. They have the know how of how and where to connect the parts in the engine and this is complete ToT.

Again you are bringing in Rhenium in your last point. For the sake of your rhenium lets agree with you. But the 1st gen SCB doesn't have Re as its component, but even then its stress rupture is way high then DSB. Now could you point out the logic of sticking with DSB? Moreover eventually India would have to move to SCB if we do want our own jet engine. So would we settle down with DSB or find out way to create super alloy for that?

When I said that India sucks in metallurgy, I did have reason to say so. Want to know why? Read this.

Rhenium in Indian rivers: Sources, fluxes, and contribution to oceanic budget

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ces_fluxes_and_contribution_to_oceanic_budget

Mod: Edited. Mindful of the language please.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Again you are bringing in Rhenium in your last point. For the sake of your rhenium lets agree with you. But the 1st gen SCB doesn't have Re as its component, but even then its stress rupture is way high then DSB. Now could you point out the logic of sticking with DSB? Moreover eventually India would have to move to SCB if we do want our own jet engine. So would we settle down with DSB or find out way to create super alloy for that?

How many times should I tell you that 1st generation SCB is inferior to 2nd generation DSB? I have specifically stated this several times. That is why first generation SCB is rejected for Kaveri.

Rhenium in Indian rivers: Sources, fluxes, and contribution to oceanic budget

You are beginning to annoy me now. First understand what others are saying. Rhenium is a very rare metal and very difficult to extract in good quantity. Having trace rhenium will serve no purpose as extraction has to be in several tens of tons a year to be useful in case of war. Do you know how much aircrafts were made every year in WW2? The manhour to make aircrafts then is comparable to now and hence similar number can be made if not more due to increase manpower. Where will you get the required rhenium for that? The trace rhenium will serve no purpose and can at best help in making 15-20 AMCA's engines (30-40 engines). So, have common sense before you open your loud mouth

Who said that HAL is a mining company and would have to produce its own raw material? DO you even know what is a raw material in terms of engine manufacturing? By your logic HAL is a forging company to forge all the titanium based heavy forgings right?

Firstly, the point being spoken was "raw material" for Su30 plane. As I said about engine, 88% was made in 2014. In October 2017, a ceremony was held to deliver 50th Al31FP engine from raw material. Can you explain why some one would hold ceremony for 50th engine? If the assembly itself was engine manufacture, how did the engine of late 2017 become 50th? Every year 12 Su30 is made which needs 24 engines. So, in slightly more than 2 years, 50 engines would be made. This again shows that the engine from raw material was made since FY16.

Also, about Russia not giving the alloy ToT, it was an opinion of Ajai Shukla. There might have been friction between Russia and UPA because of which Russia delayed it. But, the full ToT was part of the contract signed by India under Vajpayee. So, your outdated articles don't serve any point nor do your assumptions have any merit

 

[power_monger]

How many times should I tell you that 1st generation SCB is inferior to 2nd generation DSB? I have specifically stated this several times. That is why first generation SCB is rejected for Kaveri.


You are beginning to annoy me now. First understand what others are saying. Rhenium is a very rare metal and very difficult to extract in good quantity. Having trace rhenium will serve no purpose as extraction has to be in several tens of tons a year to be useful in case of war. Do you know how much aircrafts were made every year in WW2? The manhour to make aircrafts then is comparable to now and hence similar number can be made if not more due to increase manpower. Where will you get the required rhenium for that? The trace rhenium will serve no purpose and can at best help in making 15-20 AMCA's engines (30-40 engines). So, have common sense before you open your loud mouth


Firstly, the point being spoken was "raw material" for Su30 plane. As I said about engine, 88% was made in 2014. In October 2017, a ceremony was held to deliver 50th Al31FP engine from raw material. Can you explain why some one would hold ceremony for 50th engine? If the assembly itself was engine manufacture, how did the engine of late 2017 become 50th? Every year 12 Su30 is made which needs 24 engines. So, in slightly more than 2 years, 50 engines would be made. This again shows that the engine from raw material was made since FY16.

Also, about Russia not giving the alloy ToT, it was an opinion of Ajai Shukla. There might have been friction between Russia and UPA because of which Russia delayed it. But, the full ToT was part of the contract signed by India under Vajpayee. So, your outdated articles don't serve any point nor do your assumptions have any merit

Point 1) Russia has not transferred scb technology to hal.
2) Lack of SCB tech know is what preventing Kaveri to achieved desired thrust of 90Kn
3)Midhani had come up with first generation scb blades some years back. However world has moved over to SCB blades which can even control 1800C
4) Kaveri looks like has hit a dead end in terms of increasing dry thrust in its current configuration. It has to go for new core aka new engine to achieve 98 Kn thrust.
5) French Safran auditing has only confirmed airworthiness.however it is lacking the intended 81 Kn it was designed for.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Point 1) Russia has not transferred scb technology to hal.
2) Lack of SCB tech know is what preventing Kaveri to achieved desired thrust of 90Kn
3)Midhani had come up with first generation scb blades some years back. However world has moved over to SCB blades which can even control 1800C
4) Kaveri looks like has hit a dead end in terms of increasing dry thrust in its current configuration. It has to go for new core aka new engine to achieve 98 Kn thrust.
5) French Safran auditing has only confirmed airworthiness.however it is lacking the intended 81 Kn it was designed for.

I can only tell for so many times. India does not need SCB technology for Kaveri. 1st generation SCB has been discarded as useless and other generations of SCB have been discarded due to rhenium deficit. India was not able to get the required thrust due to problems for flutter and screech, not melting of blades. No SCB blades can have 1800C. It is 1800-1850 Kelvin, not Celsius. Kaveri can be derated to lower thrust in order to increase lifespan and does not need a new core. Kaveri has F414 thrust but can be derated to 90kN when needed.

The Kaveri has 81kN thrust in ISA+20C conditions which means in ISA condition, it is equal to F414.

 

[Enquirer]

I can only tell for so many times. India does not need SCB technology for Kaveri. 1st generation SCB has been discarded as useless and other generations of SCB have been discarded due to rhenium deficit. India was not able to get the required thrust due to problems for flutter and screech, not melting of blades. No SCB blades can have 1800C. It is 1800-1850 Kelvin, not Celsius. Kaveri can be derated to lower thrust in order to increase lifespan and does not need a new core. Kaveri has F414 thrust but can be derated to 90kN when needed.

The Kaveri has 81kN thrust in ISA+20C conditions which means in ISA condition, it is equal to F414.

Buddy, you need to take it easy on spreading the misinformation about Kaveri thrust.....

 

[power_monger]

I can only tell for so many times. India does not need SCB technology for Kaveri. 1st generation SCB has been discarded as useless and other generations of SCB have been discarded due to rhenium deficit. India was not able to get the required thrust due to problems for flutter and screech, not melting of blades. No SCB blades can have 1800C. It is 1800-1850 Kelvin, not Celsius. Kaveri can be derated to lower thrust in order to increase lifespan and does not need a new core. Kaveri has F414 thrust but can be derated to 90kN when needed.

The Kaveri has 81kN thrust in ISA+20C conditions which means in ISA condition, it is equal to F414.

Flutter and screech issue has been resolved. I will go with sourav jha words on it. If safran has certified it for limited envelope fight it means the engine usage use has been resolved.

Thrust equivalent to f404 or f414 is just chest beating propaganda.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Few days earlier a friend who has visited defence expo has told me that HAL is developing HTFE 40 with "40 dry and 60 wet thrust engine" which is the upgraded varient of HTFE 25. Any news about this?