Kaveri Engine

[Kshithij]

For god's sake, don't bring LCA discussion of airframe, aerodynamics etc into Kaveri Engine thread!! Kaveri Engine has got nothing to do with aerodynamics or wingloading or even Su30!!

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Wrong information. Older AMCA was 30ton weight class. But it was shown in defexpo that AMCA was made to be a high speed stealth interceptor with 25ton weight class. 70/110kN twin wngine for 25ton weight class will be overpowered. Rafale is similar weight class and it has just 50/75kN engine, Typhoon has 60/90kN engine for same weight class. Anything more than 65/100kN will be considered as overpowered for AMCA.

Theoretically speaking, 2X 70/110 KN should have a MTOW 35 tons. 25 Ton is too low. Such high power engines are not required. If such engines are used than they should give AMCA and exceptionally high T/W ratio unmatched by any fighter anywhere.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

This is not true. Rafale can't supercruise but Typhoon can in A2A role. Let me give examples of planes that can supercruise and their engine size:

1. Su30 MKI has twin Al31F of 80/125kN for 38ton weight. It translates to 53/83kN for 25ton class
   
2. EF Typhoon is 24ton class and has 60/90kN engine. 65/100kN Kaveri for AMCA will do even better
3. F15 is 31ton class and has twin F100 engine with 65/105kN. This translates to 52/85kN for 25ton class.
4. Su57 is 36ton with Al41F engine of 93/147kN. This translates to 65/102kN for 25ton class

25ton plane using twin 65/100kN Kaveri itself is enough for most operations. It is at the level of PAK-FA currently with Al41F engines. The 75/110kN engine will make AMCA the class of PAK-FA with Izdeliye 30 engine or F22 class. The problem with this is that F22 has 8.3ton of fuel, PAK-FA has 10.3ton of fuel whereas AMCA has fuel of 6tons.

The maximum speed is also said to be 1.8Mach for AMCA. This is in contrast to F22 or PAK-FA with item 30 engine which has maximum speed of 2.25Mach. So, AMCA is most probably designed to have 65/100kN Kaveri, not 75/110kN engines.

the specification shown are too conservative. Actual plane must carry much more than this.

 

[Kshithij]

the specification shown are too conservative. Actual plane must carry much more than this.

Medium planes are of the class of Rafales or EF Typhoons. So, the description of AMCA matches with the weight of 25ton MToW. If I am right and as told by many here, the engine is likely to be F414 or Kaveri of similar thrust. AMCA may need slightly more thrust than other planes due to its shaping for stealth being less aerodynamic but the added 5-10% thrust into engine compared to EF Typhoon should do the job.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/188-a-quick-explanation-of-relaxed-stability/

Has some beautiful explanation sS.

I didn't know su27 was an unstable airframe , so I asked the question,

The link above has fantastic explanations.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Medium planes are of the class of Rafales or EF Typhoons. So, the description of AMCA matches with the weight of 25ton MToW. If I am right and as told by many here, the engine is likely to be F414 or Kaveri of similar thrust. AMCA may need slightly more thrust than other planes due to its shaping for stealth being less aerodynamic but the added 5-10% thrust into engine compared to EF Typhoon should do the job.

Look at the Max speed of only 1.8 mach. G limit 8/-3.5, M, Service ceiling only 50K ft and External payload is 5 tons. Most of these specifications can be match by Tejas Mk2. What is the use to have such specifications of a plane which we are going to get after 15 years.

 

[Kshithij]

Look at the Max speed of only 1.8 mach. G limit 8/-3.5, Max payload only 5, Sercvice ceiling only 50K ft and External payload is 5 tons. Most of these specifications can be match by Tejas Mk2. What is the use to have such specifications of a plane which we are going to get after 15 years.

Don't expect high G limit certification as Indian conditions restrict that. G limit of 8 means it is 9--10 in standard conditions. Also, airframe is capable of handling upto 15G and yet not fail.

You are not looking at internal bays which can hold 1.5-2 tons weapons, mostly 4-6 BVR missiles. This is the key part - Air superiority role.

Tejas MK2 can't have these specifications as it does not have stealth or internal bays. The fuel capacity of AMCA is also 6ton, much higher than LCA MK2 of 3.5ton and rafale of 4.7ton.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

can hold 1.5-2 tons weapons, mostly 4-6 BVR

There will be at the most 4 bvr with 150 kg weight which is 600 KG.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Tejas MK2 can't have these specifications as it does not have stealth or internal bays. The fuel capacity of AMCA is also 6ton, much higher than LCA MK2 of 3.5ton and rafale of 4.7ton.

this seems to be a real advantage.

 

[ersakthivel]

Don't expect high G limit certification as Indian conditions restrict that. G limit of 8 means it is 9--10 in standard conditions. Also, airframe is capable of handling upto 15G and yet not fail.

You are not looking at internal bays which can hold 1.5-2 tons weapons, mostly 4-6 BVR missiles. This is the key part - Air superiority role.

Tejas MK2 can't have these specifications as it does not have stealth or internal bays. The fuel capacity of AMCA is also 6ton, much higher than LCA MK2 of 3.5ton and rafale of 4.7ton.

Why indian conditions restrict G pulled to 8?

If you hv any links please post,

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Theoretically speaking, 2X 70/110 KN should have a MTOW 35 tons. 25 Ton is too low. Such high power engines are not required. If such engines are used than they should give AMCA and exceptionally high T/W ratio unmatched by any fighter anywhere.

70/110kN for a 25ton MToW will give TWR of F22 and Su57 with item-30 engine. This is not unheard of. But, we can also see F35 having MToW of 31tns and engine of 120/180kN which has less TWR than EF Typhoon.

AMCA with Kaveri 62/98kN will be better than F35, EF Typhoon in TWR while inferior to F22 and Su57(FOC). If 70/110kN engine is used, it will be similar to F22. The calculation to choose between 62/98kN or 70/100kN engine must be based on various things like ease of logistics by having common engine, mileage and hence range of the plane, role required etc.

the specification shown are too conservative. Actual plane must carry much more than this.

The role is stealth, not air raid. So, the stealth requires air dominance as priority. It may be the correct speciication itself

Look at the Max speed of only 1.8 mach. G limit 8/-3.5, M, Service ceiling only 50K ft and External payload is 5 tons. Most of these specifications can be match by Tejas Mk2. What is the use to have such specifications of a plane which we are going to get after 15 years.

@Kshithij has explained it correctly. Stealth Internal bays, air superiority role and higher fuel is what AMCA offers. Tejas MK2 does not offer these

Don't expect high G limit certification as Indian conditions restrict that. G limit of 8 means it is 9--10 in standard conditions. Also, airframe is capable of handling upto 15G and yet not fail.

You are not looking at internal bays which can hold 1.5-2 tons weapons, mostly 4-6 BVR missiles. This is the key part - Air superiority role.

Tejas MK2 can't have these specifications as it does not have stealth or internal bays. The fuel capacity of AMCA is also 6ton, much higher than LCA MK2 of 3.5ton and rafale of 4.7ton.

Sensor fusion and other 5th generation technology is also available

There will be at the most 4 bvr with 150 kg weight which is 600 KG.

The BVR could be a bigger one like meteor/SFDR too. It is not necessary to have Astra only.

Why indian conditions restrict G pulled to 8?

If you hv any links please post,

Indian conditions does not limit Gs of airframe. The problem here is that these fighters must perform these tasks in -20 celsius temperature of Leh, in 40-50 celsius field of Rajasthan at low and high altitude as well as highly humid and hot regions of coastal areas. The test is passed only if the G rate is pulled in all the extreme conditions.

In other countries, the G rates don't generally involve such extreme conditions and are done in normal and standard conditions of 25 celsius and normal humidity, excepting, may be USA. As a result, many USA planes like F15E, F18, F35 etc also can't do 9G.

There are many possible reasons for it:

• The engine power is kept at a balanced level to suit both fuel efficiency as well as thrust. So, extreme cases situation requires more thrust which will be difficult.
• The airmass may be too thick or too thin in extreme conditions which can make G difficult
• The moisture of IOR region can hinder normal engine function and reduce thrust
• India may not have the G suit for such extreme testing or even if it has, India is not willing to risk the lives of the pilot unnecessarily.
• When India says 8G, it almost always means that 8G has been crossed decisively. So, it could simply be a nomenclature or rounding off problem between Indian 8G and other countries 9G

 

[ersakthivel]

70/110kN for a 25ton MToW will give TWR of F22 and Su57 with item-30 engine. This is not unheard of. But, we can also see F35 having MToW of 31tns and engine of 120/180kN which has less TWR than EF Typhoon.

AMCA with Kaveri 62/98kN will be better than F35, EF Typhoon in TWR while inferior to F22 and Su57(FOC). If 70/110kN engine is used, it will be similar to F22. The calculation to choose between 62/98kN or 70/100kN engine must be based on various things like ease of logistics by having common engine, mileage and hence range of the plane, role required etc.


The role is stealth, not air raid. So, the stealth requires air dominance as priority. It may be the correct speciication itself


@Kshithij has explained it correctly. Stealth Internal bays, air superiority role and higher fuel is what AMCA offers. Tejas MK2 does not offer these


Sensor fusion and other 5th generation technology is also available


The BVR could be a bigger one like meteor/SFDR too. It is not necessary to have Astra only.


Indian conditions does not limit Gs of airframe. The problem here is that these fighters must perform these tasks in -20 celsius temperature of Leh, in 40-50 celsius field of Rajasthan at low and high altitude as well as highly humid and hot regions of coastal areas. The test is passed only if the G rate is pulled in all the extreme conditions.

In other countries, the G rates don't generally involve such extreme conditions and are done in normal and standard conditions of 25 celsius and normal humidity, excepting, may be USA. As a result, many USA planes like F15E, F18, F35 etc also can't do 9G.

There are many possible reasons for it:

• The engine power is kept at a balanced level to suit both fuel efficiency as well as thrust. So, extreme cases situation requires more thrust which will be difficult.
• The airmass may be too thick or too thin in extreme conditions which can make G difficult
• The moisture of IOR region can hinder normal engine function and reduce thrust
• India may not have the G suit for such extreme testing or even if it has, India is not willing to risk the lives of the pilot unnecessarily.
• When India says 8G, it almost always means that 8G has been crossed decisively. So, it could simply be a nomenclature or rounding off problem between Indian 8G and other countries 9G

That was my thinking also.

Higher temp & humidity saps wing lift & engine thrust is what I read.

Still if we can hv a credible link to cite, we can counter criticism on tejas


All manufacturer s give their specs for ISDA atmosphere conditions of 20 deg temp & a specific humidity level & at sea level.

Like that if HAL cam also give , it will be better for comparison

 

[HariPrasad-1]

AMCA with Kaveri 62/98kN will be better than F35, EF Typhoon in TWR while inferior to F22 and Su57(FOC). If 70/110kN engine is used, it will be similar to F22. The calculation to choose between 62/98kN or 70/100kN engine must be based on various things like ease of logistics by having common engine, mileage and hence range of the plane, role required etc.

AMCA being long in size will comply with area ruling (compared to Tejas) in much better way and hence will be much more aerodynamic against stealth shaping penalty. With such high thrust, it should easily super cruise.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

AMCA being long in size will comply with area ruling (compared to Tejas) in much better way and hence will be much more aerodynamic against stealth shaping penalty. With such high thrust, it should easily super cruise.

Yes, with only internal weapons and fuel weighing less than 20 tons, the AMCA with Kaveri should be able to supercruise. But, it is unlikely to supercruise with added drag and weight of external stores.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

GE has made an excellent Aero engine with composite fan section and detachable engine part with 22 time compression achieved in only 5 stages with counter rotating blades. We should study this engine though it may be passenger plane engine and incorporate such new technologies in Kaveri to make it light in weight and more efficient in output.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

GE has made an excellent Aero engine with composite fan section and detachable engine part with 22 time compression achieved in only 5 stages with counter rotating blades. We should study this engine though it may be passenger plane engine and incorporate such new technologies in Kaveri to make it light in weight and more efficient in output.

F135 is counter rotation blades. The problem is that they are very big. I am not sure how effective they will be when small.

 

[Enquirer]

Yo mud headed expert,

Read the following,

Before starting your ,"fortune telling",

"Combined with relatively low wing loading and powerful basic flight controls, it makes for an exceptionally agile aircraft, controllable even at very low speeds and high angle of attack. "

You hv been yelling from the roof top that,

LOW WINGLOADING is some insignificant spec.

Correct your lying ways, before calling others fraud.





The Su-27's basic design is aerodynamically similar to the MiG-29, but it is substantially larger. The wing blends into the fuselage at the leading edge extensions and is essentially a cross between a swept wing and a cropped delta (the delta wing with tips cropped for missile rails or ECM pods). The fighter is also an example of a tailed delta wing configuration, retaining conventional horizontal tailplanes.

The Su-27 had the Soviet Union's first operational fly-by-wire control system, based on the Sukhoi OKB's experience with the T-4 bomber project. Combined with relatively low wing loading and powerful basic flight controls, it makes for an exceptionally agile aircraft, controllable even at very low speeds and high angle of attack. In airshows the aircraft has demonstrated its maneuverability with a Cobra(Pugachev’s Cobra) or dynamic deceleration – briefly sustained level flight at a 120° angle of attack

You're my bitch who can't get me out of your mind.

 

[darshan978]

You're my bitch who can't get me out of your mind.

then ignore dont spoil threads with your fake american english and style...

 

[Enquirer]

then ignore dont spoil threads with your fake american english and style...

Then tell your 'daddy' to stop being desperate for my attention & stop engaging me with his nonsensical obsessions; but your worthless self thinks you need to jump to that loser's defense all the time!!!
Ask your 'daddy' to address his false-science specifically to his bitches like you!

 

[darshan978]

Then tell your 'daddy' to stop being desperate for my attention & stop engaging me with his nonsensical obsessions; but your worthless self thinks you need to jump to that loser's defense all the time!!!
Ask your 'daddy' to address his false-science specifically to his bitches like you!

son keep calm and f-off............