K-15 Sagarika Missile SLBM

Patriot

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K4 was tested once, plus they need something like 3-4 successful tests.

K6 is only matter of scaling up the tech, BTW once underwater boosters tech is mastered, we can launch Nag and Akash underwater.......:laugh:
Saya, when was K4 launched? You have more info on this please share. TIA
 

sayareakd

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Saya, when was K4 launched? You have more info on this please share. TIA
K-4, named after former President of India Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam, is the next significant development under the K-X series by DRDO. It was covertly tested off the coast of Visakhapatnam in January, 2010. However, any detail regarding the developments in this project are confidential and this project is sometimes referred to as "BLACK PROJECT" whose existence is neither denied nor acknowledged by DRDO. While there are some reports that claim that K-4 is a submarine-launched version of AGNI-V, other reports state that it is actually a SLBM Version of the Agni-III missile that is being worked on. The goal of this project is to expand the second-strike options for the country, DRDO scientists told reporters during a briefing. A total of 258 private firms and 20 DRDO laboratories were involved in this venture.[17] The Missile is said to have two variants. One with a range of 3,500 km that is 10 m long and the other with a range of 5,000 km will be 12 m long to arm future nuclear submarines of the Arihant class.[2] K-4 will provide India with the capability to target China and Pakistan simultaneously. INS Arihant, first of the Arihant Class Submarines, will be able to carry 4 (10m long) K-4s or 12 K-15s.[18]
K Missile family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


2010 a mixed bag for Indian defence research
Hemant Kumar Rout, TNN Dec 30, 2010, 11.23am IST
The year marked the successful flight trials of air-to-air missile Astra and submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM) K-4 in January. While the Astra having a multiple striking range between 25 km to 100 km was tested from the integrated test range (ITR) off the Orissa coast, the K-4 missile was tested from a Pontoon (replica of a submarine) off the Andhra Pradesh coast. Later this month the air force conducted flight trials of laser-guided bombs (LGBs).
2010 a mixed bag for Indian defence research - Times Of India
 

olivers

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and this



K15 underwater launch and platform pic.
[/quote]

A couple of observations based on these images and the video from which these images are extracted.

The blue drum of the underwater launch rig is possibly 1.5 to 1.75 meters high. The hatch cover of the launch rig is almost twice the size of the blue drum. Therefore the outer diameter of the hatch door looks like it's approximately 3 to 3.5 meters. The inner k5 silo seems to be slightly smaller. Seems to confirm Arun's numbers of 2 to 2.2 meters with maybe a little clearance.

If you notice the outer hatch cover has five sensors horizontally and an additional five sensors vertically. These are placed on the diameter of the hatch cover. 3 to 3.5 meter hatch cover has six such divisions including the outer end where there are no sensors(two of these). So the spacing between the sensors is half a meter to 0.6 meters. The diameter of the missile launched form the the launch rig captured in the image is 1.5 to 1.8 meters. Which indicates it could be a test launch consistant with the reports of a k05(?). Also the sensors seems to be positioned to verify the exact position at launch of the missile along the x-y axis on launch to identify any deviation of the misslie on canister launch (?) You will notice the down bubble on the whole rig and the missile more to the left when it leaves the launch tube. The sensors on the right are left exposed (This assumes the camera is set to always show the plumb line position using gyros which are common on RC aircraft for stabilization and fairly easy to get hold of for mounting ...). Additionally, you can also make out the diameter of the missile launch cap under water is 1 to 1.2 meters. This cap is then jettisoned on launch in the video after it climbs a few meters above the sea surface(?). So this missile test was for a ek phool wala misslie(?).

The questions I am mulling over is: Does a down bubble launch require more silo clearance than a vertical launch (?) to prevent the missile trying to correct itself on launch to align with the waters natural buoyancy forces? Maybe this force has to be overcome in a submarine launch and hence the high thrust launch from the canister at approximately 30m/s(?). Maybe this is why the initial tests were of a smaller diameter missile with progressive launches being performed with lower clearance. Get comfortable with launches of 1.5 to 1.8 meter missiles before pushing the envelope on the silo clearance(?).


Additionally from the video the 10.2 meter missile launch seems to traverse the 3 to 3.5 meter launch hatch completely in a second or so. The last frame is cut off so I am not very sure this is true. The launch velocity is 25 m/s to 30m/s(? my arithmetic skills aren't great ) Of course the missile after clearing the surface is ignited and has a different launch velocity when the rockets power up.

Additionally at 3.53 in the video the mockup shows 4 missiles in each silo (?) So that's sixteen per submarine? Interesting. 4 silos or launch tubes.

Disclaimer: Take all of my calculations with a pinch of salt. I have a tendency to mess up on arithmetic by making some really unforced errors in silly places.

Picture credits goto sayareakd. Pictures from a different forum. Hope you are ok with this or I will scrap the post.
 
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olivers

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Additionally thats 4 launch tubes x 4 missiles x 9 submarines = 144 nukes without MIRV. Some of the later subs will likely be hunter killers. So India is building both kinds of subs or maybe all three kinds. They want 12 nuclear submarines ... with 3 out of commission or on backup patrols thats 9 subs. I would assume we will use 4 subs for the ballistic role and the rest will be special ops and hunter-killer roles. Well all of this assumes we have four misslies per silo as shown in the figure. With MIRV the numbers will change dramatically. Maybe we won't need four missiles per silo. One misslie will be enough per silo ... Interesting choices ... But then again who knows ... It's all guess work ...
 

sayareakd

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Picture credits goto sayareakd. Pictures from a different forum. Hope you are ok with this or I will scrap the post.
Pic was first posted here and then on another Indian forum. If you checked the back page it was posted their.

Since i have lot of time on my hand here is what i played with.



this pic shows that main tube lid is at least 3 time bigger then the K15.

almost same as this old famous pic

 

sayareakd

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well based on the above pic i made this 3D



take into consideration this



this official diagram
[/IMG]

and this



you can see that the platform made by them has ballast tank and its shape is that of ATV.

So that they can easily make it submerged and later on raised the platform like submarine.

Plus i can also say that they have tested Brahmos Sub launch from same platform.



with support ships to tow the platform.

I think in future they are going to test K4 using same platform



using Arun Sir missile pic in my pics.
 
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olivers

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I am going to selectively use your picture. This is probably not the right configuration. All three missiles are not launched simultaneously. There will be 4 launch tubes. Each launch tube will launch just one at a time. So up to four missiles from four different tubes. Your design seems to imply three missiles from one launch tube. It's not how everyone else does it.

Please use your third or fourth figure to see how big the diameter is. Your circle is of the longitudinal cross section of the missile cap and not the missile diameter. You can see the missile diameter in reference to the sensors in the third or fourth picture(Middle row). The one where the missile is almost near the top of the hatch.

An additional reason why your figures with three in the same tube is not accurate is the international standards of 2 to 2.2 meters for SLBMs with MIRV elsewhere. The launch tested a 1500km or so SLBM. We need the bigger plantoon to test the 13 meter 2.2 m dia SLBMS. Also the missile leaves the hatch almost dead center. So no space of the rest of the three tubes within the hatch.

The additional engineering consideration which makes your design difficult is that once a launch is conducted water pours into the tube. You won't expose all missiles to water by opening the hatch. once the misslie is launched the water in the tube needs to be emptied and the second canister moved into place. So yes it could be 3 or 4 missiles in one of these tubes. With four such tubes. The video has a second official picture which I posted earlier from which I derived the 4 x 4 configuration. It could be 3 x 4 as well. You can have a look at minute 3.53 of the official video.

So the 3D figure is off in my view and isn't the right configuration for the final Agni VI SLBM version of 2 to 2.2 meters dia and 13 meter length. This has been confirmed as the final configuration by AC.

Consider this the hatch has a diameter of 3m. The area of the circle is 7.06 sq m.
The missile according to my calculation has a diameter of 1.5 to 1.8m. The cross section area of the missile as opposed to cap you drew a circle around is 2.54 sq m to 1.76 sq m. Consistant with the smaller foot print of the B05 test on January 27th 2013. It wasn't a really big missile. So yes the missile will "appear" much much smaller than the 3m hatch. The area of a circle increases in terms of square of the radius and consequently diameter. I hope this makes sense.

Even for the final configuration the missile cross section for 2.2 meters will be 3.8 sq m vs the hatch area of 7.06 sq m. You need this to allow for down bubble launches. Down bubble as in launch from other than the submarine in vertical steady state aligned with the sea surface or plumb-line. There also needs to be clearance for launching as well so yes the hatch door.

Your three missile config will require 7.62 sq m if the missile is 1.8 m which is bigger than the available 7.06 sq m area and 5.28 sq m at the lower end 1.5 m missile dia which will make it a tight fit and not enough clearence :) Our missiles need to grow fatter to 2.2 to get to eventual configuration of SLBMs around the world. So not really the right design :) Good effort though.

As always feel feel to knock me around in arithmetic. That isn't my strong suit. I am pretty confident with the rest of the analysis. 3 to 3.5 m hatch with one missile of 1.5 to 1.8m (as tested on 27th jan 2013). The future missiles are 2.2 meters and 10m long and 13 m long "eventually". Only one missile at a time in the launch tube :) The design is simpler that way. (The other figure just gives you an idea of how many missiles will be carried and not how many will launch at the same time. You can always rotate missiles into place under the hatch instead of engineering a bigger hatch which requires you to take in more water and dead weight with each launch.)
 
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sayareakd

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Payeng

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I think future MIRV would be blunt headed.

From the close observation for the video it seems like an unlucky fish was passing by the pontoon when the missile left. As the missile left and vacuum space was created inside the launcher the fish got dragged inside it :tsk::tsk:
 

sayareakd

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I am going to selectively use your picture. This is probably not the right configuration. All three missiles are not launched simultaneously. There will be 4 launch tubes. Each launch tube will launch just one at a time. So up to four missiles from four different tubes. Your design seems to imply three missiles from one launch tube. It's not how everyone else does it.

Please use your third or fourth figure to see how big the diameter is. Your circle is of the longitudinal cross section of the missile cap and not the missile diameter. You can see the missile diameter in reference to the sensors in the third or fourth picture(Middle row). The one where the missile is almost near the top of the hatch.

An additional reason why your figures with three in the same tube is not accurate is the international standards of 2 to 2.2 meters for SLBMs with MIRV elsewhere. The launch tested a 1500km or so SLBM. We need the bigger plantoon to test the 13 meter 2.2 m dia SLBMS. Also the missile leaves the hatch almost dead center. So no space of the rest of the three tubes within the hatch.

The additional engineering consideration which makes your design difficult is that once a launch is conducted water pours into the tube. You won't expose all missiles to water by opening the hatch. once the misslie is launched the water in the tube needs to be emptied and the second canister moved into place. So yes it could be 3 or 4 missiles in one of these tubes. With four such tubes. The video has a second official picture which I posted earlier from which I derived the 4 x 4 configuration. It could be 3 x 4 as well. You can have a look at minute 3.53 of the official video.

So the 3D figure is off in my view and isn't the right configuration for the final Agni VI SLBM version of 2 to 2.2 meters dia and 13 meter length. This has been confirmed as the final configuration by AC.

Consider this the hatch has a diameter of 3m. The area of the circle is 7.06 sq m.
The missile according to my calculation has a diameter of 1.5 to 1.8m. The cross section area of the missile as opposed to cap you drew a circle around is 2.54 sq m to 1.76 sq m. Consistant with the smaller foot print of the B05 test on January 27th 2013. It wasn't a really big missile. So yes the missile will "appear" much much smaller than the 3m hatch. The area of a circle increases in terms of square of the radius and consequently diameter. I hope this makes sense.

Even for the final configuration the missile cross section for 2.2 meters will be 3.8 sq m vs the hatch area of 7.06 sq m. You need this to allow for down bubble launches. Down bubble as in launch from other than the submarine in vertical steady state aligned with the sea surface or plumb-line. There also needs to be clearance for launching as well so yes the hatch door.

Your three missile config will require 7.62 sq m if the missile is 1.8 m which is bigger than the available 7.06 sq m area and 5.28 sq m at the lower end 1.5 m missile dia which will make it a tight fit and not enough clearence :) Our missiles need to grow fatter to 2.2 to get to eventual configuration of SLBMs around the world. So not really the right design :) Good effort though.

As always feel feel to knock me around in arithmetic. That isn't my strong suit. I am pretty confident with the rest of the analysis. 3 to 3.5 m hatch with one missile of 1.5 to 1.8m (as tested on 27th jan 2013). The future missiles are 2.2 meters and 10m long and 13 m long "eventually". Only one missile at a time in the launch tube :) The design is simpler that way. (The other figure just gives you an idea of how many missiles will be carried and not how many will launch at the same time. You can always rotate missiles into place under the hatch instead of engineering a bigger hatch which requires you to take in more water and dead weight with each launch.)
this is official pic



As far as International standard is concern we have made mini boomer, which shows that we will do what ever suit our situation and we are not blindly following their standards.

It appears that you are confused because of this pic



which first appeared in India Today, they have again used this pic in the video.

number of missile tube in ATV is only one as shown in this official figure.



It is our nuclear submarine with live nukes on board so do expect some of the design features being withdrawn or made to mislead enemy and other nations.

As per number of missile in missile tube is concern it can be made to change



you see all the missile are canisterised therefore it can be easily fit into missile tube

like K15 shown here

 

sayareakd

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I think future MIRV would be blunt headed.

From the close observation for the video it seems like an unlucky fish was passing by the pontoon when the missile left. As the missile left and vacuum space was created inside the launcher the fish got dragged inside it :tsk::tsk:
yeah i also saw that, must be Pakistani or Chinese fish, trying to spy on our launch............LOL.
 

sayareakd

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US tomahawks
Payeng, i checked wiki
Nirbhay
Diameter 0.52 m
Brahmos
Length 8.4 m
K-15
Diameter 0.74 m
K-4
Diameter 1.3 m



so in future once the tech is perfected on sub, you can see the what you have posted for Nirbhay.

Even Arihant will carry 7 X 4 Nirbhay, which makes 28 missile, if nuke tip, it will wipe off small country like Pakistan.
 

Immanuel

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Payeng, i checked wiki
Nirbhay
Diameter 0.52 m
Brahmos
Length 8.4 m
K-15
Diameter 0.74 m
K-4
Diameter 1.3 m



so in future once the tech is perfected on sub, you can see the what you have posted for Nirbhay.

Even Arihant will carry 7 X 4 Nirbhay, which makes 28 missile, if nuke tip, it will wipe off small country like Pakistan.
Indeed Brahmos has a diameter of 0.6 m as well, with small changes, ATV can carry upto 7*4 as well.

I think a large ATV fleet of 30+ subs makes more sense with such missile configs.

We could have 10 armed with 28 Nirbhay each i.e 280 missiles

10 armed with 28 Brahmos ( 5 with brahmos 1 and 5 with brahmos 2) each i.e 280 missiles

5 armed with 12 Sagarika each: 60 missiles

5 armed with K-4 or even SLBM version of Agni-5: 20 missiles
 

Payeng

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Pay ours is more advance here is the L&T universal launcher.



It has tube within the tube which seal the hot exhausts gases. Unlike the US system



where the gases and exhausts are coming out from the sides.
saya that US missile is hot launch while Indian one is cold launch, cold launch do not require exhaust fume vents.
 

olivers

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The difference is I am talking about SLBM. All other multiple launch configurations are cruise missiles. These are two different animals.They can be launched from the same silo. For the 3 in one tube pictures, please also co-relate the outer diameter which should fit in all of those configurations.

I am talking about ballistic missiles which match the best of the world like trident. I don't follow nirbhay or bhramos too closely. My analysis is more about ICBMs and SLBMs and the pictures I see of the hatch are perfect for 1.5 to 1.8 m and 2.2 meter missiles of the ICBM class. Yes they can fire multiple cruise missiles. Similarly, submarines can be modified to launch navy special ops. All of these are important after you have a second strike capability with nukes. These configurations in a nuclear sub right now is less than optimal unless we have only SLCMs. Mixing a discussion of SLBM's with SLCM's is confusing to say the least. There will be one SLBM launched from each tube at one time and launching more than one SLBM as opposed to SLCM from a launch tube is unlikely.

If DRDO is using the official images in their video it could also be the configuration of the submarine instead of having silos all over the place. The design in the video also makes sense given all the ordinance can be close to each other to use a different tube incase of problems. So I picked the one in the video instead of the other configuration.
 

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