JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

Super Flanker

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Finally a sensible reality based analysis rather than fanboy stuff. For us JF-17 is exactly what you mentioned and we are very happy with its progress and serviceability rate.
Thank you for the appreciation, on a minor note, as we all know that JF-17 is a Joint venture between China and Pakistan, the same way that Brahmos is a joint venture between India and Russia, can you please list me some of Pakistan's Contribution in the JF-17 program?

In the case of Brahmos as I said before is a joint venture between India and Russia, both sides have Contributed in terms of development and components, in the same way can you please tell me what is Pakistan's Contribution in the JF-17 program? I am awaiting your reply, regards.
 

shiphone

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LOL... such poor Comprehension ability.

obviously the MB seat is the standard Ejection seat on PAF's Block 3. but the other customers CAN choose the HTY serial ejection seat for their Block 3s.



and



Chinese HTY ejection seat is not something rare at least on the FC-1/JF-17 prototypes which took the maiden flight within China....for an export project, the sub system is optional.

and the first export order: the JF-17BM with HTY serial seat.



JF-17B for PAF

 
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Aliusman

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Thank you for the appreciation, on a minor note, as we all know that JF-17 is a Joint venture between China and Pakistan, the same way that Brahmos is a joint venture between India and Russia, can you please list me some of Pakistan's Contribution in the JF-17 program?

In the case of Brahmos as I said before is a joint venture between India and Russia, both sides have Contributed in terms of development and components, in the same way can you please tell me what is Pakistan's Contribution in the JF-17 program? I am awaiting your reply, regards.
Here is the official PAC Kamra website link:
In this the Production paragraph it clearly states: " Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) holds 58% work share of JF-17 airframe co-production". As far I remember following sections are made by Pakistan

1)Nose Section and complete front end including the cockpit and the DSI inlets.
2)Both wings including ailerons
3)Complete Section rear section including the horizontal and vertical stabilizers
4)Weapons software for Ground Attack missions
5)Software and Hardware for Inter asset communications.
6)Even the KLJ-7A AESA radar is being produced under license

China and other countries sends these parts out of the box
Fuselage Section (China)
RD-93 engine (Russia)
Indra ECCM (Spain)
PL-15,SD-10, PL-10, PL-5E AAM (China)
Ejection Seat(UK)

During Development Phase in Early 2000's PAF Engineers and Pilots were in Chengdu who helped in some little ways with extensive knowledge they had on F-16 systems primarily and others platforms like F-15 and Mirage 2000 secondarily since we have had extensive experience on them through 2 decades of deployments in KSA and UAE respectively. Hopefully this answers your question.
 

jai jaganath

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Here is the official PAC Kamra website link:
In this the Production paragraph it clearly states: " Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) holds 58% work share of JF-17 airframe co-production". As far I remember following sections are made by Pakistan

1)Nose Section and complete front end including the cockpit and the DSI inlets.
2)Both wings including ailerons
3)Complete Section rear section including the horizontal and vertical stabilizers
4)Weapons software for Ground Attack missions
5)Software and Hardware for Inter asset communications.
6)Even the KLJ-7A AESA radar is being produced under license

China and other countries sends these parts out of the box
Fuselage Section (China)
RD-93 engine (Russia)
Indra ECCM (Spain)
PL-15,SD-10, PL-10, PL-5E AAM (China)
Ejection Seat(UK)

During Development Phase in Early 2000's PAF Engineers and Pilots were in Chengdu who helped in some little ways with extensive knowledge they had on F-16 systems primarily and others platforms like F-15 and Mirage 2000 secondarily since we have had extensive experience on them through 2 decades of deployments in KSA and UAE respectively. Hopefully this answers your question.
First thing the site is not opening better if u could copy paste the content
Second is that work sharing doesn't mean producing things better explanation could be reading the article
Next those things u mentioned are not critical and importantly they also come in ckd or skd especially radar modules which u are speaking about
Next these things doesn't make an aircraft many other important equipments and structures need be made and dose are definitely made by chinese not only fuselage many other critical equipments
Mostly Pakistan with given experience and tech can manufacture fuselage and other minor electronics as the industry require for large and critical techs is non existent in Pakistan
 

Dark Sorrow

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Here is the official PAC Kamra website link:
In this the Production paragraph it clearly states: " Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) holds 58% work share of JF-17 airframe co-production". As far I remember following sections are made by Pakistan

1)Nose Section and complete front end including the cockpit and the DSI inlets.
2)Both wings including ailerons
3)Complete Section rear section including the horizontal and vertical stabilizers
4)Weapons software for Ground Attack missions
5)Software and Hardware for Inter asset communications.
6)Even the KLJ-7A AESA radar is being produced under license

China and other countries sends these parts out of the box
Fuselage Section (China)
RD-93 engine (Russia)
Indra ECCM (Spain)
PL-15,SD-10, PL-10, PL-5E AAM (China)
Ejection Seat(UK)

During Development Phase in Early 2000's PAF Engineers and Pilots were in Chengdu who helped in some little ways with extensive knowledge they had on F-16 systems primarily and others platforms like F-15 and Mirage 2000 secondarily since we have had extensive experience on them through 2 decades of deployments in KSA and UAE respectively. Hopefully this answers your question.
Currently KLJ-7A AESA radar is directly procured from CETC.

Their was/is a plan to assemble KLJ-7A AESA radar from TR-independent modules and other required electronics imported from PRC but couldn't find any source stating PAC has started this assembly job. Their is also no news that NRIET has given the source code for KLJ-7A AESA radar to PAC.

Selex ES has provided cockpit electronics; including mission computer, head-up display and multi-function displays.

RWR from US.
Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) and IFF System from PRC.
New version can have head-up display and multi-function displays from PRC (possible the same used for J-20s).
EO system from Turkey.
ECM, ESM and ECCM from Indra Sistemas.
Sensor, actuators and hydraulic from PRC.
Helmet-mounted sight (HMS) from Luoyang Electro-Optics Technology Development Centre.
Tactical data link from PRC.
FBW control laws are also written in PRC along with mission computer software with design support from Mikoyan.
GSh-23-2 from Russia.
SDR from PRC.
South Africa for the supply of Denel A-darter AAM.
Several avionics supplied by France, Spain and Italy.
 

Super Flanker

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Here is the official PAC Kamra website link:
In this the Production paragraph it clearly states: " Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) holds 58% work share of JF-17 airframe co-production". As far I remember following sections are made by Pakistan

1)Nose Section and complete front end including the cockpit and the DSI inlets.
2)Both wings including ailerons
3)Complete Section rear section including the horizontal and vertical stabilizers
4)Weapons software for Ground Attack missions
5)Software and Hardware for Inter asset communications.
6)Even the KLJ-7A AESA radar is being produced under license

China and other countries sends these parts out of the box
Fuselage Section (China)
RD-93 engine (Russia)
Indra ECCM (Spain)
PL-15,SD-10, PL-10, PL-5E AAM (China)
Ejection Seat(UK)

During Development Phase in Early 2000's PAF Engineers and Pilots were in Chengdu who helped in some little ways with extensive knowledge they had on F-16 systems primarily and others platforms like F-15 and Mirage 2000 secondarily since we have had extensive experience on them through 2 decades of deployments in KSA and UAE respectively. Hopefully this answers your question.
The link is not working as the PAC website has imposed a geo block so as to not allow Indians to view the website so in short I am unable to read the link of PAC website but I will leave it that for another day and I will address the other points of your post.


1)Nose Section and complete front end including the cockpit and the DSI inlets.
We have done this with our own SU-30 MKI, infact all the wings, stabilizers, cockpit, control surfaces are all built by HAL and other Indian companies. If you want me to, I can share you the files to prove so.

2)Both wings including ailerons
3)Complete Section rear section including the horizontal and vertical stabilizers
4)Weapons software for Ground Attack missions
5)Software and Hardware for Inter asset communications.
This I will agree.

6)Even the KLJ-7A AESA radar is being produced under license
Is there any evidence to prove that KLJ-7A is being produced by Pakistan under licence from China? All I know is that it is planned to build the KLJ-7A in Pakistan, it has not yet started as far as I know.

By the way, is there any evidence that PAC produces or builts anything what you are claiming they do so?

By the way, see this.
20220211_060543.jpg


You know what this? This is the photo of an Il-78/76 of the Pakistan Airforce transporting the Chinese built fuselage of JF-17 to PAC in Pakistan so that Pak will only Assemble them.

See mate I need evidence if you want me to accept your claims. Share us the PDF or Copypaste of PAC Kamra in which it is mentioning what component pak really does make of JF-17. Till then, take care.
 

Steven Rogers

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The link is not working as the PAC website has imposed a geo block so as to not allow Indians to view the website so in short I am unable to read the link of PAC website but I will leave it that for another day and I will address the other points of your post.



We have done this with our own SU-30 MKI, infact all the wings, stabilizers, cockpit, control surfaces are all built by HAL and other Indian companies. If you want me to, I can share you the files to prove so.


This I will agree.


Is there any evidence to prove that KLJ-7A is being produced by Pakistan under licence from China? All I know is that it is planned to build the KLJ-7A in Pakistan, it has not yet started as far as I know.

By the way, is there any evidence that PAC produces or builts anything what you are claiming they do so?

By the way, see this.
View attachment 169878

You know what this? This is the photo of an Il-78/76 of the Pakistan Airforce transporting the Chinese built fuselage of JF-17 to PAC in Pakistan so that Pak will only Assemble them.

See mate I need evidence if you want me to accept your claims. Share us the PDF or Copypaste of PAC Kamra in which it is mentioning what component pak really does make of JF-17. Till then, take care.
With no semiconductor industry,their are building AESA radar,take everything they say with a pinch of salt...
 

Super Flanker

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With no semiconductor industry,their are building AESA radar,take everything they say with a pinch of salt...
Go to google, type on the search bar "Pakistan semiconductor industry" and you will come across articles dating back to early 2022 (February, March etc).

Here is what one of the articles which I came across when I did this google search says :

"Pakistan govt. aims to establish semiconductor manufacturing plant amid global chip shortages! In a bid to pursue self-sufficiency in the manufacturing of gadgets and for opening new developmental avenues, Pakistan has proposed an ambitious plan to build a semiconductor zone with China's help."


LINK

Actual truth is that Pakistan is not having the Capability to build stuff like Radars, advanced aircraft sensors on its own without the help of "China'.
 

Dark Sorrow

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With no semiconductor industry,their are building AESA radar,take everything they say with a pinch of salt...
They plan to import TR-Modules, ICs and other required electronic modules.


 

Arjun Mk1A

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Go to google, type on the search bar "Pakistan semiconductor industry" and you will come across articles dating back to early 2022 (February, March etc).

Here is what one of the articles which I came across when I did this google search says :

"Pakistan govt. aims to establish semiconductor manufacturing plant amid global chip shortages! In a bid to pursue self-sufficiency in the manufacturing of gadgets and for opening new developmental avenues, Pakistan has proposed an ambitious plan to build a semiconductor zone with China's help."


LINK

Actual truth is that Pakistan is not having the Capability to build stuff like Radars, advanced aircraft sensors on its own without the help of "China'.

Till CPEC itself bore nothing. This will be the same mirage that Pakistan conveys everytime.
 

Steven Rogers

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Steven Rogers

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Go to google, type on the search bar "Pakistan semiconductor industry" and you will come across articles dating back to early 2022 (February, March etc).

Here is what one of the articles which I came across when I did this google search says :

"Pakistan govt. aims to establish semiconductor manufacturing plant amid global chip shortages! In a bid to pursue self-sufficiency in the manufacturing of gadgets and for opening new developmental avenues, Pakistan has proposed an ambitious plan to build a semiconductor zone with China's help."


LINK

Actual truth is that Pakistan is not having the Capability to build stuff like Radars, advanced aircraft sensors on its own without the help of "China'.
Global village 🤣🤣🤣,a website made by pakistani fanboys whom we use to troll in 2016-2017...
I still remember about one guy who brought Bin Qasim in pakistani airforce's capabilities debate...
 

Wisemarko

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Meet Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder: A Pitiful ‘Successor’ To The F-16
By
Christian Orr
5 days ago
U.S.-Pakistani relations have long had a bipolar disorder-like history. On the positive side of the ledger, America had a substantive relationship in the 1980s with then-strongman Gen. Zia-ul-Haq as the two countries cooperated to support the Afghanistan mujahideen rebels’ resistance campaign against the Soviet occupation; this was a major boost to the Ronald Reagan Administration’s policy of rollback of the Soviet Union. In addition, in the early days of the Global War On Terror, then-POTUS George W. Bush had a productive relationship with then-Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. On the negative side of the ledger, Pakistan’s security apparatus, particularly their infamous Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency, has long been supportive of the Taliban. Even more irksome for the U.S, given the current state of global affairs, has been Pakistan’s cozy relationship with America’s biggest global adversary, Red China. That buddy-buddy Sino-Pakistani relationship is embodied in the JF-17 fighter jet program.

An Unholy Alliance?

The CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder (Urdu: جے ایف-17 گرج) AKA the Xiaolong (枭龙; “Fierce Dragon”) is a joint venture by the PRC’s Chengdu Aircraft Corporation – the same company that produces the J-20 Wēilóng(“Mighty Dragon”) fighter – and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). It is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft, intended to replace the ageing A-5C, F-7P/PG, Mirage III, and Mirage V combat aircraft in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) arsenal, though the “-17” denoting that, in the PAF’s viewpoint, it is the successor to the F-16 Fighting Falcon – sales of the F-16 to Islamabad have been yet another ongoing bone of contention in U.S.-Pakistani relations.

The Thunder made its maiden flight on 25 August 2003 and was officially introduced into PAF service on 12 March 2007. Additional users are the Nigerian Air Forceand Myanmar Air Force, and reportedly the Iraqi Air Force (IqAF) has set aside over $600 million USD (875.9 billion Iraqi dinars) to purchase 12 of the jets to supplement its fleet of F-16s and Czech-made Aero L-159ALCA light combat aircraft. 164 airframes have been built thus far.

Yet another potential foreign customer is Argentina, which would put PAC in direct competition with south Asian subcontinental archrival India and that country’s homegrown HAL Tejas lightweight fighter aircraft. A June 2022 article by Usman Ansari and Jose Higuera in DefenseNews reported a visit to Pakistan by Gen. Juan Martín Paleo, the head of Argentina’s joint military staff that in turn fed speculation that a JF-17 fighter jet deal was potentially on the horizon. The reporters added that in May, “a delegation of [Argentine] Air Force pilots and technicians evaluated the JF-17 in China. This included a full technical evaluation, use of a simulator and evaluation flights. In the more recent trip to Pakistan, officials discussed collaboration on defense materiel production during a visit to the Ministry of Defence Production.”

Specifications

PAC’s official info page on the JF-17 lists the warbird as having a fuselage length of 47 feet, a height of 15 feet, a wingspan of 31 feet, an empty weight of 7,965 kg (17,559 lbs.) and a maximum takeoff weight of 13,500 kg (29,762 lbs.). Max airspeed is 1.6 Mach (1,190 mph/1,910 kph/1,030 knots) with an Indicated Airspeed (IAS; presumably a synonym for cruising speed?) of 700 knots. Service ceiling is 55,500 feet, ferry range is listed at 1,880 nautical miles. Armament-wise, there are 8 hardpoints capable of carrying a variety of air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, or 3,400 kg (7,495 lbs.) worth of bombs; gun-wise, the official company literature only makes a generalized reference to a “23 mm double barrel gun,” whilst the Quwa Defence Newswebsite specifies it as a GSh-23-2.

As to whether the Fierce Dragon has actually lived up to its moniker in combat, conflicting stories abound. On the one hand, official PAF sources claim that JF-17s took part in Pakistan’s retaliatory 2019 Jammu and Kashmir airstrikes, in which Pakistan shot down an Indian MiG-21. On the other hand, Indian news agencies such Defence Aviation Post, in an apparent effort to one-up their Pakistani nemeses, tell a different story:

“Indian aircraft intercepted the Pakistani attack, and Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 that was much superior before crashing his vintage MiG-21 Bison in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK). The much-heralded Sino-Pak produced JF-17 was only there for show, did not see the air action, and remained hidden behind the American fighters as the US F-16 fired air-to-air missiles at Indian fighters. Due to a shortage of replacement parts for the Klimov RD 93 aircraft engine, which is built in Russia, the JF-17 programme is currently in a rut.” (emphasis added)

Unintended Consequences: Trouble In Pakistani Paradise

Speaking of “in a rut,” The Law of Unintended Consequences appears to be coming into play to the JF-17’s detriment. In essence, the sanctions placed upon Russiaon account of their “special military operation” in Ukraine have led to a lack of spare parts for the Russian-made Klimov RD 93 aircraft engine, which has reportedly caused the PAF’s JF-17 fleet to be grounded. As Shishir Gupta of The Hindustan Times reported last month,

“Stung by multiple failures of JF-17 aircraft, primarily due to the serviceability of RD-93 engines, Pakistan had directly approached Russia for procuring the RD-93 engines, bypassing China. In the aftermath of multiple negotiations by Islamabad with Moscow, Russian engine company Kilmov has now indicated its willingness to supply RD-93 engines and its associated repair systems and maintenance facilities to JF-17 aircraft…However, in 2018, M/s Rosoboronexport, which is authorised to export defence equipment including RD- 93 engines and spares, was sanctioned by the US, thereby adversely affecting the sourcing of RD-93 engine spares by the PAF. The sanctions restrict Rosoboronexport from undertaking US dollar transactions, which the two governments and the concerned banks have now been attempting to sort out.”
If, when, and how these issues will be sorted out is anybody’s guess.

Christian D. Orr is a former Air Force Security Forces officer, Federal law enforcement officer, and private military contractor (with assignments worked in Iraq, the United Arab Emirates, Kosovo, Japan, Germany, and the Pentagon). Chris holds a B.A. in International Relations from the University of Southern California (USC) and an M.A. in Intelligence Studies (concentration in Terrorism Studies) from American Military University (AMU). He has also been published in The Daily Torch and The Journal of Intelligence and Cyber Security. Last but not least, he is a Companion of the Order of the Naval Order of the United States (NOUS). In his spare time, he enjoys shooting, dining out, cigars, Irish and British pubs, travel, USC Trojans college football, and Washington DC professional sports.
 

Abdus Salem killed

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JF-17 block 1 & 2 were not even as Advanced as LCA Tejas's Prototype but JF-17 block 3 will be a good plane with modern features like AESA Radar, Upgraded sensors, software etc.

JF-17 block 3 is a decent aircraft I would say.
How good is KLJ-7 i am reading paki comments that it's better than rafale and elta and uttam bcs it is GaN and beats GaAs ?
 

Super Flanker

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How good is KLJ-7 i am reading paki comments that it's better than rafale and elta and uttam bcs it is GaN and beats GaAs ?
Tbh, i would think that the Elta, UTTAM and RBE2 radar (on Rafale) are superior in performance to the Chinese KlJ-7 Radar but I could be wrong though. But don't believe Chinese and Pakistani claims, they overly exaggerate stuff and claim a lot of nonsense about their Hardware.
Experts could answer but I don't klj-7a has GaN modules
GaN modules are more efficient than GaA
I searched up on the Internet about whether KLJ-7 uses GaN or GaAs and there is literally no info about it.
GaN modules are more efficient than GaA
Actually the Main advantage of GaN based radars over GaAs based radars is that GaN has higher breakdown voltage compared to GaAs. Thus it can take more electric power and convert into EM power as a result.
 

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