JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[SATISH]

Well, If you tend to look at the map of Asia you cant see any country starting from Iran to the Mallacca straits that is a client state to the US other than Pakistan. If Obama had been smart enough, he could have cut a deal with Iran and had an alternative route into Afghanistan and eventually the CAR. The whole of Asia is otherwise a bit hostile to the US. So Pakistan is like a bone stuck in the throat of the shark.

 

[ajtr]

I wouldn't call it unwavering, we did cut them off for years and only re-entered the region after 9-11. The fault lines between India and the US go way back. You tried to chart a middle course and ended up in bed with the Soviets. Pakistan was willing to toe the anti-communist line. During the Cold War we didn't have the luxury of picking and choosing only the good guys. Although in India's case back then it was really only slighter better than Pakistan.

Although over the last several years, India and the US seem to be maturing into the natural allies they are of each other. Similar democratic traditions, increasing trade, cultural links and many of the same strategic concerns (PRC and terrorism).

It was Nixon administration's unwavering support to Yahya khan which pushed Indira Gandhi to sign mutual friendship treaty with USSR.With president Nixon and his secretary of state Henry Alfred Kissinger tried to gang up on india in 1970-71 period by prodding china to attack India in case of indo-pak war.With whole USA and west ganging up on India IG had no option to go to USSR.Who can forget the so called champion of human rights west who tried to swept under carpet one of the worst genocide in the human history in Bangladesh.But then Chinese were more intelligent than the Americans by not heeding to Henry Alfred Kissinger's call to attack India.BTW USA and India were never natural allies and will never be one.Indo-usa relation is like just give and take between two businesses nothing more nothing less.World is seeing the declining USA so does India and no one in realpolitik would like to ally with declining power.Today USA needs India not other way round.Even USA 's most closest allies like south Korea /japan /UK seeing the USA as an unreliable ally so why would India like to ally with a power which has the history of un-reliability.World has also seen USA reducing its old allies to rubble like IRAQ/Pakistan.Thank god Indian leadership of early days had foresight to maintain neutrality until it was pushed into USSR embrace by USA.

 

[Ray]

India has built the Chabahar port in Iran and a highway linking it to Afghanistan and onto CAR, apart from other roads.

If the US comes to an understanding with Iran, Pakistan will become redundant.

However, with the current Iranian regime, it will be a long shot if US and Iran can come to any understanding.

 

[zraver]

Well, If you tend to look at the map of Asia you cant see any country starting from Iran to the Mallacca straits that is a client state to the US other than Pakistan. If Obama had been smart enough, he could have cut a deal with Iran and had an alternative route into Afghanistan and eventually the CAR. The whole of Asia is otherwise a bit hostile to the US. So Pakistan is like a bone stuck in the throat of the shark.

Obama bent double and kissed his own ass and all the Mullah's did was snore.... The regime in Iran has made the decision that confrontation with the west is the only way to maintain political legitimacy internally. We have a better chance of Bin Laden converting to Judaism than we have of a US-Iranian rapprochement now that the Iranian civil war is all but over with the hardliners winning.

Ray, the Pashtuns who have to live with the TTP are far less hostile to the drone strikes than the Punjabis. The Pashtuns know that when the US fires a missile or drops a bomb a house or part of it or a vehicle is destroyed and only those close to the target are killed/injured. When Pakistani Army units move it, to kill the same person a village is destroyed. Recent counts make the predator/reaper strikes the most discriminating weapon of the modern age. With new technologies coming on line we are almost to the point where we can snipe individuals rooms inside of a building.

 

[ajtr]

If one looks at the issue of US support to Pakistan pragmatically, then it will be realised that the US, though not very comfortable in supporting Pakistan, she has no option but to do so.

The US logistics has to be ferried to Afghanistan via Pakistan, the route through the CAR requires airlift and that is expensive.

The drone attacks have alienated the Pakistanis to a great extent since it is taken as usurping Pakistan's sovereign right as an independent nation responsible for its own territorial integrity.

The Pakistan govt has no option but to lump it since they are being kept afloat by the US munificence, be it through military materiel, financial support, WB or IMF (which are controlled by the US indirectly). If the US stops all this, then Pakistan will become a failed state and more roguish than what it is now, as per international perceptions.

Pakistan, it is believed, realises that neither China nor Saudi Arabia can give the assistance that the US is giving them!

Ray sir,

In one sense it was better for india.Indian leadership/media combine who were so gung ho about the indo-usa relation till 2008 were given a real jolt about after 2009.It was good that this jolt came early for west loving indian leadership otherwise it would have harmed india a lot.

 

[SATISH]

India has built the Chabahar port in Iran and a highway linking it to Afghanistan and onto CAR, apart from other roads.

If the US comes to an understanding with Iran, Pakistan will become redundant.

However, with the current Iranian regime, it will be a long shot if US and Iran can come to any understanding.

Isnt that what diplomats are supposed to do?

 

[Ray]

@zraver


One has to comprehend the Pakhtoonwali, It involves their honour code and traditional lifestyle of the Pashtun people. Communal or tribal identity and loyalty, living up to their word, protection to their 'guests' is a very powerful cohesive factor and they are a very unforgiving people prone to revenge even for small slights. In India and where I live there are many Pastuns, popularly known as Kabuliwalas. They are dry fruit vendors and money lenders and woe be to anyone who does not keep his word. The Indian Nobel Laureate, Rabindranath Tagore wrote a very moving tale, "Kabuliwala" emphasising their sense of keeping to their word, capability of revenge irrespective of consequences, their bonds amongst themselves and to those they loved and swore bond with.
While Pakistan Army would have razed the countryside and had no remorse, the Pahtuns will still bear a grudge for the Drone attacks and will never forgive. To them, the biradri is most important notwithstanding who amongst them has flouted the law or norms of society as we see it. Their idea of societal bond and tribal law is totally different from ours.

Ghayrat (self honour or dignity) is paramount for them and if even one of their own is attacked, they will not take it easily, actually they will never forgive.

It is everyone's wish that the ISAF and the US is successful but it shall be a long haul. One really does not know what is the answer, given the Pashtun psyche. They can't even live at peace with themselves, let alone with non Pashtuns.

The British were no fools to leave them to their way and only having a nominal control over them!

 

[Ray]

Ray sir,

In one sense it was better for india.Indian leadership/media combine who were so gung ho about the indo-usa relation till 2008 were given a real jolt about after 2009.It was good that this jolt came early for west loving indian leadership otherwise it would have harmed india a lot.

I would say that there are many good spinoffs from the India - US relationship.

We have to learn to exert ourselves to keep it on an even keel and not appear to be kowtowing, which unfortunately, it appears, we are doing.

There is common ground in many fields with the US and we should foster them, while not selling ourselves to the US.

In fact, the Iraq War and Afghanistan has been quite an eye opener to the Americans for them to realise that they cannot alone take on the world and instead require friends.

Further, with immigrants thronging to the US beyond the usual European settlers, I believe, the mindset in the US is changing and they are more tolerant to other Nation's sensitivities. That is why the usual anti Americanism is not so evident around the world. In fact, they are welcomed in most part of the world readily and without reservations. They are no longer lampooned the world over as the brash American.

 

[zraver]

@zraver


One has to comprehend the Pakhtoonwali, It involves their honour code and traditional lifestyle of the Pashtun people. Communal or tribal identity and loyalty, living up to their word, protection to their 'guests' is a very powerful cohesive factor and they are a very unforgiving people prone to revenge even for small slights. In India and where I live there are many Pastuns, popularly known as Kabuliwalas. They are dry fruit vendors and money lenders and woe be to anyone who does not keep his word. The Indian Nobel Laureate, Rabindranath Tagore wrote a very moving tale, "Kabuliwala" emphasising their sense of keeping to their word, capability of revenge irrespective of consequences, their bonds amongst themselves and to those they loved and swore bond with.
While Pakistan Army would have razed the countryside and had no remorse, the Pahtuns will still bear a grudge for the Drone attacks and will never forgive. To them, the biradri is most important notwithstanding who amongst them has flouted the law or norms of society as we see it. Their idea of societal bond and tribal law is totally different from ours.

Ghayrat (self honour or dignity) is paramount for them and if even one of their own is attacked, they will not take it easily, actually they will never forgive.

It is everyone's wish that the ISAF and the US is successful but it shall be a long haul. One really does not know what is the answer, given the Pashtun psyche. They can't even live at peace with themselves, let alone with non Pashtuns.

The British were no fools to leave them to their way and only having a nominal control over them!

Brigadier,

reports coming out of the tribal areas would seem to dissagree with you. The sheer brutality of the TTP against the very society that gave it shelter has turned many pashtuns against it. The TTP was enforcing a version of Islam that was forgien to the locals as a westerner. They killed tribal leaders and flouted custom and law and turned the locals way of life upside down.
http://www.jamestown.org/programs/g...=36059&tx_ttnews[backPid]=26&cHash=44ee9f7b8f

 

[zraver]

AJTR,

India and the US are natural allies and the fake animosity of the cold war is finally smoothing over. We value the same things, have similar forms of government, similar legal traditions, a similar language and trade outlook and similar strategic problems. India and the US will continue to grow closer shoved together by need and want. We also have increasing social ties with nearly 2 million Indians now living in the US.

 

[nitesh]

back to topic

JF 17 - Pakistan's Pride

 

[ajtr]

AJTR,

India and the US are natural allies and the fake animosity of the cold war is finally smoothing over. We value the same things, have similar forms of government, similar legal traditions, a similar language and trade outlook and similar strategic problems. India and the US will continue to grow closer shoved together by need and want. We also have increasing social ties with nearly 2 million Indians now living in the US.

I've replied to this post here...

Indo-usa relations

 

[SATISH]

Obama bent double and kissed his own ass and all the Mullah's did was snore.... The regime in Iran has made the decision that confrontation with the west is the only way to maintain political legitimacy internally. We have a better chance of Bin Laden converting to Judaism than we have of a US-Iranian rapprochement now that the Iranian civil war is all but over with the hardliners winning.

Ray, the Pashtuns who have to live with the TTP are far less hostile to the drone strikes than the Punjabis. The Pashtuns know that when the US fires a missile or drops a bomb a house or part of it or a vehicle is destroyed and only those close to the target are killed/injured. When Pakistani Army units move it, to kill the same person a village is destroyed. Recent counts make the predator/reaper strikes the most discriminating weapon of the modern age. With new technologies coming on line we are almost to the point where we can snipe individuals rooms inside of a building.

Sir,
There were alternate ways to engage Iran. Like they could have engaged them through India which was at that time and is still negotiating a deal with Iran for a gas pipeline or through the CAR countries like Tajikistan and Turkmenistan and Russia. And no Iranian hates America....it is just the Government policy that is anti-American. And Obama bent his back only to the Sunni, Wahhabi and Deobandi Mullahs and never to the Shia Mullah. Iran is cash strapped so using back channel negotiation I seriously think that Iran could be convinced for an alternate supply route.and the Chabar Delram highway is enough to take goods to whole of Afghanistan. And if US leaves before they achieve all their OPOBJ, it will end up being a huge headache for the surrounding region. Iran Russia and India will have to take serious measures to contain terrorism which might even lead to Isolation of the region.

And I think we have deviated far away from the post....my pick is JF 17 is a Thunder.

 

[bhramos]

Image of the Week: JF-17s at Kamra

The image above depicts a portion of the eastern end of the Pakistani airbase at Kamra. This facility houses a sizeable portion of Pakistan's aviation industry, including the assembly and development facilities for the JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter. Four JF-17s are visible, two along the taxiway and two near what is likely the hangar for the test fleet. The JF-17 will form the bulk of Pakistan's modernized air force in coming years, serving alongside F-16s and eventually J-10s. The JF-17 has recently been inducted into service with the PAF, and as such represents Pakistan's first BVR-equipped fighter. Co-developed with China, who has shown no interest in the type at this time, the JF-17 represents a rough analogue to India's Light Combat Aircraft, insofar as both aircraft are smaller, will be produced in large numbers (if the LCA's engine is finalized), and are equipped with modern, fourth-generation avionics and weapons.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/search/label/Pakistan

 

[zraver]

If you look at the history sicne Obama took offer you see a pattern of Obama know towing to the Mullahs and them slapping his ass with their shoes. They have no interest in a peaceful resolution.

 

[Yusuf]

Z, What is Pentagon and CIA doing? Why arent they advising Obama about the perils of what he is pursuing? Or has Obama gone too big for his shoes and also perhaps trying to justify is Nobel with some outright ridiculous policies to buy peace.

 

[Ray]

One wonders what Obama should do.

He surely cannot attack since the US does not have the finances to sustain such a war nor the manpower and military resources and the population would surely not like to send more of their young men and women, in what is popularly known as, harm's way.

Even Bush could not tame Iran apart from rhetoric. If one only talks with no action, then they will be what Mao used to say - paper tigers. Iran and North Korea cocked a snoot at Bush and he could do nothing. One wonders if Obama can do anything spectacular apart from the path the US is on.

The US is a Tiger and should not become a Paper Tiger.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

this image tells its own tale!

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?8d1fe23fa5.jpg

about the book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Post-American_World

 

[zraver]

Obama only listens to left leaning academics. No one else matters to him.

 

[Yusuf]

Z, Will he win again?