JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[DaRk WaVe]

Why would I trust a Pakistani state run news organisation? It is APP, no affiliation to AP or AFP. That is the same organisation that declared victory in Swat when the Taliban was taking it over.

Prove it, or just stop ranting...

I surely won't trust their interpretation of Gull's reaction to hearing about a lame duck fighter as an actual interest in purchasing it. Pakistan doesn't even want it in the current configuration. Why do you think they were begging us for avionics and missiles?

You think they will get the lame blunder with the present configuration, Got to say it you missed it, its the same blunder for which Frenchies were ready t sell & i have no doubt that once MMRCA is settled Frenchies wont hesitate to earn more money You people Love Dollah , no one has a doubt about that

 

[Rage]

I wouldn't call the JF-17 a blunder, but in my opinion, the following certainly takes the thunder out of it:


- Radar integration, complicated, in no small part, by the small space of the JF-17's radome.
- An all-metal airframe, that does not stand the test of tenacity when compared with carbon-fibre composites, with only "plans of reducing weight by increasing the use of composite materials" made so far.
- The lack of a fly-by-wire except for pitch, which in my mind, will pose the real problem for the JF-17 in a dogfight.
- A Defensive Aids system that is not fully developed, characterised for example by the lack of an as yet radar self-protection jamming pod.


But that said, it would be fatuous to underestimate the JF-17. We all know what even a 'discounted' fighter like the MiG-21 Bison could achieve. So it is imperative that we stay ahead by the induction of a fully 4.5 generation fighter, and by augmenting our numbers on depleting batches of older aircraft.

A force strength of 797 strike aircraft is, in my opinion, just not enough. That figure should be closer to 900.

 

[Armand2REP]

Prove it, or just stop ranting...

APP declares normalcy and ridding of terrorists in Swat on the 30th of May.

http://www.app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=104550&Itemid=2

BBC reports 21st of June how little progress has actually been made.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00l967g

You think they will get the lame blunder with the present configuration, Got to say it you missed it, its the same blunder for which Frenchies were ready t sell & i have no doubt that once MMRCA is settled Frenchies wont hesitate to earn more money You people Love Dollah

MRCA isn't going to be settled for a long time, all that much longer you go without French technology.

 

[sayareakd]

Rage i thought it has FBW control ???

 

[DaRk WaVe]

APP declares normalcy and ridding of terrorists in Swat on the 30th of May.

http://www.app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=104550&Itemid=2

BBC reports 21st of June how little progress has actually been made.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00l967g

Operation was going on & PM didnt said every thing's over & you think Taliban were taking over Swat when Operation was going on, What a Joke huh, its the same BBC which has been predicting the return of Taliban to Swat for quite sometime & nothing happened.
Go read it again

MRCA isn't going to be settled for a long time, all that much longer you go without French technology.

Frenchies are not the only Weapon Producers in the market, Period!!
plus you people won't hesitate to earn Dollah, any way

 

[Rage]

Rage i thought it has FBW control ???

Only in the pitch axis saya, 't has conventional controls in the yaw and roll axis.

 

[Armand2REP]

Operation was going on & PM didnt said every thing's over & you think Taliban were taking over Swat when Operation was going on, What a Joke huh, its the same BBC which has been predicting the return of Taliban to Swat for quite sometime & nothing happened.

APP said "Swat owes its normalcy to the sacrifices and professional contribution of Pakistan's security forces that have created an example for rest of the world by ridding Swat of terrorists in a record time." It hadn't rid much of anything by May 30th or even the middle of June according to that report.

Go read it again

There was nothing to read, it was a video report. I guess you didn't bother to watch it.

Frenchies are not the only Weapon Producers in the market, Period!!
plus you people won't hesitate to earn Dollah, any way

I don't see anyone offering you new avionics and missiles for the Thunder Blunder. Maybe you should look elsewhere. I am sure Russia will help you out.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

APP said "Swat owes its normalcy to the sacrifices and professional contribution of Pakistan's security forces that have created an example for rest of the world by ridding Swat of terrorists in a record time." It hadn't rid much of anything by May 30th or even the middle of June according to that report.

Do you know how big swat is? Swat is not a city, How can you say they hadn't rid much, Fighting was still going on & insurgency don't disappears in a few days, but what makes you think 'swat was been taken over while operation was going on', you only shifted your point

There was nothing to read, it was a video report. I guess you didn't bother to watch it.

APP report was to be read, I was referring to that, you genius

I don't see anyone offering you new avionics and missiles for the Thunder Blunder. Maybe you should look elsewhere. I am sure Russia will help you out.

Its only a matter of time before you people fall to power of Dollah, We all know Frenchies are really good blackmailers & love kickbacks
almost Italian Radars are on offer & so are South African Weapons

 

[ahmedsid]

Guys, Stay on Topic Please! We got SWAT threads elsewhere

About the JF17, well Turkey getting is kinda not possible. I mean, Turkey is spending money on the next gen platform, the F35 and I am sure, they are not that economically well off, to get a whole different Plane, Inferior to the ones they operate now, without even a proper Engine in Place, and bet on it!!! I mean, first make sure the Russians will give you the engines, or atleast let the Chinese Perfect theirs!!! All this talk is Just that! TALK

 

[Armand2REP]

Do you know how big swat is? Swat is not a city, How can you say they hadn't rid much, Fighting was still going on & insurgency don't disappears in a few days, but what makes you think 'swat was been taken over while operation was going on', you only shifted your point

I didn't say they had rid Swat, it was APP. I guess they don't know how big it is.

Taliban had recaptured Malam Jabba right after Pak Army had cleared it on May 26th, then they had to retake it again on June 3rd while APP was reporting Swat was cleared.

APP report was to be read, I was referring to that, you genius

The APP report is quite clear, it said Swat was cleared of terrorists. Clearly a lie while Taliban was retaking what Pakistan had deserted.

Its only a matter of time before you people fall to power of Dollah, We all know Frenchies are really good blackmailers & love kickbacks
almost Italian Radars are on offer & so are South African Weapons

We love it so much we have your president in our back pocket. Italians aren't offering anything you don't already have... Grifo S7 and SA doesn't make a BVR now that R Darter is out of production.

 

[pankaj nema]

Well as things stand now, pakistanis are not happy with JF 17

This is evident from the discussions in their forums.

They relied totally on china for engine and radar and currently both are unsatisfactory.
The first 50 are not BVR capable

Some guys in Pakistan are calling for buying Mirage 2000.
So that French avionics can be had for JF 17.

The future of this plane depends on chinese ability to get
a better engine and radar

 

[Armand2REP]

Well as things stand now, pakistanis are not happy with JF 17

This is evident from the discussions in their forums.

They relied totally on china for engine and radar and currently both are unsatisfactory.

The future of this plane depends on chinese ability to get
a better engine and radar

The engine is not strong enough for the aircraft. The weight of the RD-93 with its average thrust gives the Thunder Blunder a fat derrière. It would do better to run on a single M88-2, less afterburner thrust but same military power with far less weight in the rear. The service life of the RD-93 is pretty bad too, less than 1/3rd of the M88-2. At the rate PAF pilots fly, it won't be long before they need engine replacements. Russia intended to sell these inferior engines to get constant orders for more. They make better but will not sell them to China.

The radar installed on the first JF-17s are Grifo-S7, Pakistan has a license assembly of them already for the F-7s. They do not even want Chinese radars.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

We love it so much we have your president in our back pocket. Italians aren't offering anything you don't already have... Grifo S7 and SA doesn't make a BVR now that R Darter is out of production.

The money that we are showing you people can be shown to Italians as well & money talks big time BUT we all know you people love Dollah

Brazilians(They have already sold us ARMs which are part of JF-17 inventory) & South Africans are already pushing for a partner in T-Dartar BVRAAM & of course it has Export potential & will replace R-Dartar plus soon there will be a test for A-Dartar & here a interesting read...

A South African Air Force Saab Gripen D fighter is expected to perform the first live firing of an A-Darter short-range air-to-air missile later this month, advancing a joint project with Brazilian industry.

Launched in April 2007 under a 66-month development and production programme co-funded by the Brazilian and South African air forces, the A-Darter is intended to arm the services' respective Northrop F-5EM/FM and future F-X2 fighters, and Gripen and BAE Systems Hawk 120 aircraft.

Worth $130 million, the project involves Denel Dynamics and a group of Brazilian companies headed by Mectron. Production activities should start in 2013, with Brazil's air force expecting the missile to enter service the following year.

Launch trials with the new weapon are scheduled to take place at South Africa's Overberg test range. Ground seeker tests concluded in January and captive carriage flight trials were completed in March, following the delivery of a first test missile to Saab in Sweden last September.

Nearly 50 Brazilian civilian and military engineers are supporting development work in South Africa, and Avibras and Mectron sources have pinned high hopes on the A-Darter's export potential.

Avibras chief executive Sami Hassuani believes an initial 100-200 units could be sold to international users, with Pakistan viewed as a prime candidate. Mectron delivered its first MAA-1A Piranha-1 air-to-air missiles to the nation last month, and Islamabad has also signed a letter of intent to purchase B-version Piranha-2s. :happy_2:

South Africa, Brazil ready for A-Darter missile test

was there any news about MAA-1A Piranha-1 AAM a month back? NO

We can alway have a Combo or A-Dartar & T-Dartar, French refusal won't put us completely out of game but it will certainly delay things

 

[Armand2REP]

The money that we are showing you people can be shown to Italians as well & money talks big time

What money? You don't have any money or else you wouldn't continue to take out IMF loans.

So Frenchie don't even think we are putting all bets on you people, We can alway have a Combo or A-Dartar & T-Dartar

You are really dense... all the missiles listed in that article are WVR. MICA is a BVRAAM. T-Darter doesn't even exist except on paper. It is stalled until they find a partner who can make a decent rocket motor.

"T Darter is a concept radar-guided missile," Wessels says. "We are [proposing to use] some of our existing technologies and [are] looking for partners for the rest. We will typically provide the nose of this missile, which is the radar and are looking for a partner for the 'back end'," he says.

http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?op...-conceptualises-new-missile&catid=69:business

 

[DaRk WaVe]

What money? You don't have any money or else you wouldn't continue to take out IMF loans.

The same money that we showed to you people, you think we will come to a stand still after you people refused

You are really dense... all the missiles listed in that article are WVR. MICA is a BVRAAM. T-Darter doesn't even exist except on paper. It is stalled until they find a partner who can make a decent rocket motor.

The article of A-Dartar was quoted to give you an idea that South Africans & Brazilians are eying Pakistan to buy their product , it solves the problem of a WVR AAM & guess you need to read the date of that article again, it was back in 2008 ,that T-Darter will be replacing the existing R-Darter,you think they would not have been sitting idle for two years or so, French refusal will only delay things not completely put JF-17 out of action but on other hand we all know that French won't refuse once they see Dollah coming once MMRCA is settled

 

[pankaj nema]

Mr or Ms Dark wave (I am confused because of your avatar picture )

In your country's forums people are saying Pakistan should have bought Mirage 2000 instead of this thunder blunder. Your views please.

Pakistan's close relations with China will make western countries ,think about the inevitable transfer of western technology by pakistan to china.

the french refusal should be seen along with the fact that USA gave you block 52 F 16 and not block 60 F 16

 

[ahmedsid]

Mr or Ms Dark wave (I am confused because of your avatar picture )

In your country's forums people are saying Pakistan should have bought Mirage 2000 instead of this thunder blunder. Your views please.

Pakistan's close relations with China will make western countries ,think about the inevitable transfer of western technology by pakistan to china.

the french refusal should be seen along with the fact that USA gave you block 52 F 16 and not block 60 F 16

The Block 60 is in Service with only one country as of now, and thats the UAE. Pakistan didnt ask for Blk60s AFAIK and even if they did, they wouldnt be able to afford it, and even if they were to have the cash, its too sensitive a technology, coz it has stuff from the F35 Platform, just like F16IN

 

[DaRk WaVe]

pankaj nema I am Miss Dark Wave
that M2K story is past, the idea was that Pakistan must not have went for F-16s & must have concentrated on M2Ks instead as French were ready even for assembly M2Ks in Pakistan & India took advantage of Pakistani foolishness & brought M2K which closed doors for Pakistan, if you are talking about M2K-09 of UAEAF then thats a different story & is based on assumptions & speculations...

We never asked USA for Block 60 but that in no way means that Block 52 is a 'junk', Pakistan's relation with China has not stopped any deal with Westerners, Block 52s are coming, F-16s are under going MLUs, OHPs are coming, AIP has been introduced on PN subs, SPADA-2000 is also coming & Falco UAV has also materialized

 

[ahmedsid]

pankaj nema I am Miss Dark Wave
that M2K story is past, the idea was that Pakistan must not have went for F-16s & must have concentrated on M2Ks instead as French were ready even for assembly M2Ks in Pakistan & India took advantage of Pakistani foolishness & brought M2K which closed doors for Pakistan, if you are talking about M2K-09 of UAEAF then thats a different story & is based on assumptions & speculations...

We never asked USA for Block 60 but that in no way means that Block 52 is a 'junk', Pakistan's relation with China has not stopped any deal with Westerners, Block 52s are coming, F-16s are under going MLUs, OHPs are coming, AIP has been introduced on PN subs, SPADA-2000 is also coming

You are right, Blk52 is Not Junk, but the thing is that, you cannot deny that your closeness with China has kind of made the sale of "State of the Art" Weapon Systems to Pakistan hard. I mean, Blk 52 is by no way Cutting edge, but on the other Hand, the Blk60 has many such cutting edge tech, and the USA is wary of Chinese, even if they wont accept it in public. Thats why, even these Blk52 come with stringent Checks and Bounds.

None of the Weapons being sold to Pakistan is cutting edge, while for Eg, other American allies and non allies, even India are being offered everything. Dont tell me, its the Money, because yes, money does play a part, but dont you think, you guys would eat grass and buy F35s if they were offered to your Navy??? I am sure, you would!!! So, never say that your relationship with China has not affected the way the world sees you. If it was back in the Cold War era, the Pak China relationship was encouraged due to the Sino Soviet Split, but thats not the case anymore My Dear! God Speed

 

[LETHALFORCE]

why would a country be interested in selling just a BVRAAM??? Money is usually made by selling the Plane which comes with the BVRAAM.