JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[LETHALFORCE]

Big Deal. Sukhoi and MiG are not the Russian government. The Russians will pressure China a little, and after extracting a higher price, give their consent. After all, which other country is willing to buy 500 RD93 engines from them? (India doesn't count, we are already in their pocket).

That's ok but they will not allow it to be sold to third countries it won't be 500 planes that Russia dosen't sell and China does guaranteed. This was stupidity by Russians to offer an engine where they make 3 million a for an engine and lose 35 million for a plane.

 

[nitesh]

This is rare marriage of geo political interest of one country and commercial interest of another, let's hope it stays on for long

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Ok,

- How do you copy a 747's avionics and use it for the Jf-17?? (absurd)

Can I know what exactly you classify as avionics. Avionics vary on a large scale. From gauges to mission computer all are classified as avionics.

The Chinese don't have access to the F-35.

Remember recent attempts by China to hack in LM F-35 database and files. Who knows what are the up to.

The F-16, under least cases, they may have gotten a hold of. In that case, the Avionics used in the F-16 can't be copied over to a Russian/Chinese product. It's that simple. Western avionics are only compatible with WESTERN components. And using these avionics as a base and modifying them from to fit the Chinese products is pointless, I would write my own instead. You would get a better product, and it's less time consuming by doing that.

For this reasons brides and connectors are used. You have SATA enabled HDD being pluged into USB. You may have heard about a Serial Port emulator operating through USB port. It is the same concept but bit more complicated. Using C++ makes this job easy as you have several off the shelf products.

And Russians use ADA (for the Su-27).

Ada 95 has several advantages over C++, in particular when software costs are examined over the lifetime of the software system.
What savings are possible when using Ada versus use C and C++ for a project?
Vision Systems Ltd. of Australia cut their bug rates from 1 every 80 lines using C/C++ to 1 every 270 lines using Ada, and cut their testing time from 9 months to less than 4 months.

The seminal comparison of Ada and C projects is Rational Software's 1995 study(pdf link). Verdix (which merged into Rational in 1994) had about 50% of their 3 million lines of code in C/C++ and 50% in Ada. The code was maintained by the same developers over the course of 11 years, yet the Ada code had about half as many defects and the overall development cost was about 35% less for Ada code.

This effect extends to academia as well. John McCormick reports that students in his course on real-time embedded software development fared much better using Ada rather than C/C++. In fact, no one finished the project when using C/C++, even given 60% of the code. On the other hand, 75% of the class finished the project when using Ada, even given a much smaller portion of the code (less than 20%).

This 1997 presentation summarizes as many experiences as possible. It demonstrates that the advantages of Ada show up in nearly every application area.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I'm glad people here agree with you. Come look at their reactions when I call Arju* the Ar-Junk.

Name Calling is a very immature and childish act. It shows you you haven't grown up and/or have a low I.Q. Name calling against whom so ever should not be tolerated. Name calling also degrades quality of forum.

No one's stupid enough to code the avionics in 10 different languages. I can understand if the Radar was coded in a different language, but everything else wouldn't be coded in multiple languages. Now tell me what language each component of this aircraft is coded in, since you want to be a smart ass and say the cockpit has nothing to do with the C++ architecture.

First of all their is nothing as C++ architecture, C++ is a programming language. The structure(architecture is not a proper term, architecture is used for a more complex, big system) of software(program) is decided by the algorithm used.
No one is stupid enough to program in 10 different language but when you buy an off the shelf commercially available product(hardware) this might happen. However as C/C++ are de-facto standards this generally does not happen. Any avionics designer will program the software in language in which he most comfortable and the language most sutiable for his purpose.

So, what'd they do here? Integrate C++ with Java, PHP, ADA, C? :emot15:

PHP is a language used to build highly interactive web-sites, it cannot be used for embedded system or core system development, so no need to integrate. The same can be said for java which is used to develop corporate commercial application. C is a sub-set of C++ and ADA and C++ can easily be integrated due to number of commercial tools available in market.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Commercially available avionics, software, tools to manufacture aircraft

1. Matlab(helps you design and simulate your design under various parameter)
2. Catia(helps in actual design and fabrication)
3. Sensors(like GPS unit, accelerometer, inclinometer, gyro, radar, etc.)
4. Real-time Operating System
5. Firmware
6. Flight control libraries and equipment
7. Privately owned firmware
8. Mission Computer and associated software
9. Ejection seats and landing gears.
10. Connectors and Middlewares

The list continues, the only task is to integrate them together. Here C++ comes handy as most of this items are programmed in C++, thus witting middleware is bit easy.

 

[sayareakd]

This is rare marriage of geo political interest of one country and commercial interest of another, let's hope it stays on for long

i think this is bad news for us, PAF should continue to trust JF17 and its capabilities, Russia on its part should supply under perform engine for the fighter for top $$$ and we should invest in top of the line fighters.

If the supply of engine is stop, PAF will move towards another fighter, which might me way advance then JF17. So in long run we are in advantageous position.

Let them slowly bleed PAF and let them acquire under perform fighter.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Don't understand how you guys jumped into conclusions so soon. I did not find any article which says Russia has indeed blocked engine sales for PAF's JF-17. All I understand is china cant use RD-93 for future exports to other countries.

 

[x0700]

shaney logo, ek baat batao, mig-29 ka modified engine laga ke -- vo bhi ek, and after copying the entire airframe, puting some c++ code in outdated avionics, you can fight in that plane ??

if you think you can, wait till you get wet in the pants while getting that "veham" removed in battle, cya

:emot15:

 

[x0700]

don't worry so much for this engine, let them have it, and let them use it, anyhow, it is not the top class engine as technology stands today, and more goes in an airplane than the engine. more serious would be a scenario where they try to get a western engine, of current make. :angry_1:

 

[sayareakd]

We have no problem with PAF getting chines junk which PLAAF dont want. All we have to see is to look for our interest.

 

[p2prada]

The Russians will sell it again after they increase prices.

 

[venkat]

JF-17 is going to fly in the Farnborough Airshow between July12-19 as per news reports. May be Pakistanis may strike a deal with US/EU engine makers!!!
Farnborough is a mecca for all aircrafts and may be no.1 exhibition spot. it shows the confidence levels of pakistanis on thier Jf-17.

 

[zraver]

Hrmm, less capable at air to air, but being bought in large numbers.... I wonder why that is, lets look for some common sense reasons. First off, Pakistan doesn't have a large force of modern air frames. Her Mirages are old and nearing the end of any useful service life. The F-16's are somewhat newer to like new condition but their agility dictates that they be used in the air to air role. The J-10 won't begin arriving for a few years yet and will be needed in the air to air role as well. This leaves the PAF with a huge hole developing in its strike capabilities. The JF-17 isn't a heavy bomber, but it does offer roughly the same strike capability as the Mirage jets it will be replacing. It can also be delivered rapidly.

Don't mistake Pakistani fan boys claims with the official Pakistani position. Indian officials know the truth, the JF-17 is well suited to dropping bombs and killing Indians. Its also immune to any American attempts to disable it. This gives Pakistan a second leg (after IRBM's) in its nuclear deterrence strategy. Finally, in a sky filled with hostile fighters, every platform that can fire air to air missiles poses a threat.

When the full 250 air frames are delivered the strike capabilities of the PAF will have effectively doubled. Add in the upgraded F-16's and J-10's and the number of true BVR platforms will have gone up even more. The JF-17 is no MKI, but it does create a much more dynamic and thus dangerous situation for the IAF. The JF-17 is a fighter that is good enough to make sure India really wants a full blown war after the next terror attack. The deterrent effect is perhaps its biggest asset. As long as Pakistan keeps close enough to India in numbers, India seems unwilling to act when 10, 20, 50, 100 Indians get killed by jihadists. Mumbai proved the Pakistani armed forces are strong enough to deter war over even major terrorist attacks.

 

[Yusuf]

Yes Z you are right about it. Pakistan is purely playing a numbers game. Even a spitfire in the air with BVRs would be a threat and that is the logic behind the numbers Pakistan is acquiring.

 

[Ray]

Though dated, it is worth a look.

India vs Pakistan - Evaluation on Military Strengths

 

[Ray]

German 214 U-Boats hostage to JF-17 parts from France


In a carefully crafted tergiversation France said that it had put the Pakistan deal "It's a deal that's not ready from the Pakistani side," the source said, without giving further details. "For now, the state of the dossier doesn't allow us to carry on with it."

A consortium made up of French company ATE, arms group Thales (TCFP.PA) and missile manufacturer MBDA was supposed to produce the equipment, Le Monde said. Thales declined to comment. Reuters

Not ready from the Pakistani side? What does that mean. There is no check attached with the dossier? What does "state of the dossier" mean? Are the kicbacks not working?–or is it a tactic to place pressure on Pakistan to deal with those that killed the French Engineers working on the Augustas in Karachi.

Analysts beleive that pettifoggery may be linked to slowing down Pakistan's indigenous plane capability which will directly impact the sale of French Mirages to the third world. Paris may be looking to better safeguards on its technology and a better price from Pakistan.

Pakistani JF-17 Thunders are already flying without the French parts. The new parts would have enhanced the capability of the aircraft. The PAF has learned its lessons from various US embargoes and now uses a plethora of equipment from various countries for the enhancements. Islamabad does not depend on any one country. The JF-17 Thunder is built from scratch on exact Pakistani needs and most of the equipment, frame and electronics are indigenous. France like the US has never been a reliable supplier for Pakistan. In the 70s the French canceled a Nuclear processing plant that had been signed between the two countries. is there an Israeli connection to this "hold"? Some blame France's latest chicanery on the Jewish origins of President Sarkozy who has taken all of France to the right of center–abandoning traditional French neutrality on many issues. France has vehemently opposed Turkey's admission to the EU tying it to Israel's admittance.

Three is a disjunction between private and public French posturing. Islamabad is used to French double-dealing, duplicity, and equivocation. This latest sleight-of-hand scurvy trick is typical of France's subterfuge and deceitful fakement. The recent French turpitude on putting a $1.6 billion deal for Pakistan "on hold" is being seen as silly surreptitious trickery by Sarkozy and gang to secure the lucrative Bharati (aka Indian) deal first and put then pressure on Pakistan to force Islamabad to buy the Augustas rather than the German 214 Submarines.

France sells arms to anyone and everyone. This new found streak of logic-chopping insta-conscience may have been nurtured to please Delhi–secure the $2.2 billion deal with with Bharat to upgrade its aging and archaic fleet of Mirage 2000 fighters–and then approve the Pakistani parts.

The French ruse may also be a tickler for Delhi's MCRC $10 billion deal. With Delhi's relations with Washington at their lowest ebb, and souring, the French team may be working to get their foot in the door on the $10 sale of aircraft to Bharat.

New Delhi: The France government held up its 1.6 billion dollars sale of arms to Pakistan, reportedly under pressure from India.

The military hardware was to be used for Pakistan's JF-17 combat aircraft. The sale of electronics and missiles, under the first part of a six billion euro deal, was signed with Islamabad.

Paris is said to be concerned over whether Pakistan would be able to pay-off the huge deal amount or not. And, also worried over the safety of the sophisticated technology.

However, experts are not willing to accept India would be able to exert pressue on France to hold the deal for long.

"I don't really know how much pressure India can really exert on France because in the past we have seen that America has tremendous influence on their policies," said Hamid Gul, former DG of ISI.

"Americans have supplied us already. They have committed to supply us 18 F-16 aircraft. Any aircraft that France can put out it can be outmatched by what the Americans can do."

"We have very good relations in this field with China and we have developed JF-17 Thunder. We don't see any immediate possibility of war. Therefore we have time in which we can develop technology," he added. IBN and agencies.

In 2008 Pakistan Navy under chief of naval staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir made efforts for including German 214 Class submarines in its fleet and owing to Navy's persistent efforts, the government had approved plans for acquisition of these submarines to be built at Karachi Shipyard under transfer of technology programme.

The details were later worked out between the two countries when a Pakistan Navy delegation visited Germany in April.

However recently quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his military's preference for the German subs to take up a "better offer" from France.

German Boats rather than French Scorpians
Choosing German Subs over French ones
Pakistan's 214 Submarines made in Karachi with German help
Choosing French Submarine over German? Rational decision or risking Pakistani defense ?
From Pakistan daily DAWN

 

[zraver]

Nitesh, speaking the truth isn't cheeky. Pakistan does use US weapons, soon India might as well. Those weapons may well be employed. But in the mean time, American citizens have jobs, and hopefully near force parity will prevent full blown wars where thousands die. I wish Pakistan wasn't wedded to jihadist, but I live in the real world. I honestly don't know if Pakistan can be saved, the Punjabi politicians seem to be totally divorced from the reality that you can't work with jihadists. The US has great public support in the Pashtun areas where our drone attack are occurring. The people there see the truth, while outside of those areas Pakistani media reports the strikes as some sort of evil.

 

[nitesh]

Nitesh, speaking the truth isn't cheeky. Pakistan does use US weapons, soon India might as well. Those weapons may well be employed. But in the mean time, American citizens have jobs, and hopefully near force parity will prevent full blown wars where thousands die. I wish Pakistan wasn't wedded to jihadist, but I live in the real world. I honestly don't know if Pakistan can be saved, the Punjabi politicians seem to be totally divorced from the reality that you can't work with jihadists. The US has great public support in the Pashtun areas where our drone attack are occurring. The people there see the truth, while outside of those areas Pakistani media reports the strikes as some sort of evil.

Well sir was not trying to put you in difficult position, but unwavering US support to a terrorist state is difficult to understand which openly uses these arms to prevent any retaliation

 

[zraver]

I wouldn't call it unwavering, we did cut them off for years and only re-entered the region after 9-11. The fault lines between India and the US go way back. You tried to chart a middle course and ended up in bed with the Soviets. Pakistan was willing to toe the anti-communist line. During the Cold War we didn't have the luxury of picking and choosing only the good guys. Although in India's case back then it was really only slighter better than Pakistan.

Although over the last several years, India and the US seem to be maturing into the natural allies they are of each other. Similar democratic traditions, increasing trade, cultural links and many of the same strategic concerns (PRC and terrorism).

 

[Ray]

If one looks at the issue of US support to Pakistan pragmatically, then it will be realised that the US, though not very comfortable in supporting Pakistan, she has no option but to do so.

The US logistics has to be ferried to Afghanistan via Pakistan, the route through the CAR requires airlift and that is expensive.

The drone attacks have alienated the Pakistanis to a great extent since it is taken as usurping Pakistan's sovereign right as an independent nation responsible for its own territorial integrity.

The Pakistan govt has no option but to lump it since they are being kept afloat by the US munificence, be it through military materiel, financial support, WB or IMF (which are controlled by the US indirectly). If the US stops all this, then Pakistan will become a failed state and more roguish than what it is now, as per international perceptions.

Pakistan, it is believed, realises that neither China nor Saudi Arabia can give the assistance that the US is giving them!