INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Twinblade]

About the kaveri part. It only produced 71 KN and not 81 KN when tested in gromov in rusiia. I know it is flat rated but I guess we can expect it to drop a bit more in our conditions. When did it get 81 KNs?

It hasn't.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read the first post of the first page of this thread ..

I thought the insas was having a fair number of issues? That's why they were looking at the new rifles?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Hires Picture of Amogh Carbine ..

 

[TrueSpirit1]

some thing i've observed is that,if the 30 round mags of insas lmg is used for regular insas,the mag will hit the ground when the soldier lie down.

Actually, this is the only real reason for 25 round mag. Better handling & aiming while lying.

 

[acetophenol]

Actually, this is the only real reason for 25 round mag. Better handling & aiming while lying.

Why didn't they curve it,like AK mags?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

22rnds ..

================

It wont make a big difference, In real there is little difference it makes if 30rnd ..

GSQR are made in theory which are put in practice and ends up with end product ..

Actually, this is the only real reason for 25 round mag. Better handling & aiming while lying.

Why didn't they curve it,like AK mags?

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Amogh is 2.95 kg. Wat did they do to reduce weight?

Added later:

> Barrel is different from Regular Insas, has less steps across its length
> Pistol Grip looks different, space for fingers instead of knurled pattern
> Butt Stock is different

Looks like Plastic furniture helped in weight reduction ?

Also, even though indigenous effort, some shortcomings seen:

> Use Industrial Designers like Heckler & Koch to improve looks, needs to be deadly tactical looking

> Rivets and fastners should not protrude outside, should be integral or recessed

> Paint /blackening / powder coating job is bad, to be improved

> Recoil springs should be scientifically designed to reduce recoil, not add weight (the keyword here is "scientifically")

> Mag fit and finish is a problem, mold and die design and tolerances used for making it are rudimentary (The OFB guy in-charge of this is either not well qualified in this, or doesnt care, and Continuous Improvement Programme in OFB, after 10 + years of INSAS production, is not very effective)

> Fibreglass mag cracks in the field, Germans use Aluminium, steel or polymer , which work better. No need for transparent, no shortcomings felt in German and US designs w/o transparent magazine

> Provision for underbarrel pictanny rail, whose drawings are available on the internet (OFB guy in-charge either doesnt have access to internet, or if available, is busy surfing other topics of National Interest)

The OFB , having sold a million INSAS, should have captalized on it and offered a better Mk-II. Army has said they want to import the next generation weapon, but if shortcomings in INSAS were adressed, they might have ordered a further 1 million from OFB itself. OFB should have been on their toes. Right now, they have lost their credibility and we will import the monkey wrench technology from some foreign firm.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read the thread, First few pages would do before knee jerking ..

Will answer your questions accordingly ..

1. Its not call plastic furniture but thermostat, All modern Rifle use it except older wooden once ..

2. It looks just deadly, ( It will never look nice for few who find anything foreign is better )..

3. Its a model for expo not real stuff ..

4. Do you know or see how Rifles are design and made in India ( Or you think Indians are less experienced designing "scientific" stuff )

5. No problems, People in charge of weapon are ill fit to handle firearm most of the time ..

6. Read the thread, No issues any longer ..

7. OFB or DRDO dont have liberty to do their own changes on an Rifle which is design as per ' ARMY`S GSQR REQUIREMENT '..

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============================

There is nothing to whine about your own country National defense agencies, Make proper research before commenting, All you think you know is not sufficient to blame just one organization ..

You have asked question which are repeated by other member in past, Try to ask question which are interesting to answer regarding INSAS rifle ..

Amogh is 2.95 kg. Wat did they do to reduce weight?


Looks like Plastic furniture helped in weight reduction ?

> Use Industrial Designers like Heckler & Koch to improve looks, needs to be deadly tactical looking

> Rivets and fastners should not protrude outside, should be integral or recessed

> Paint /blackening / powder coating job is bad, to be improved

> Recoil springs should be scientifically designed to reduce recoil, not add weight (the keyword here is "scientifically")

> Mag fit and finish is a problem, mold and die design and tolerances used for making it are rudimentary (The OFB guy in-charge of this is either not well qualified in this, or doesnt care, and Continuous Improvement Programme in OFB, after 10 + years of INSAS production, is not very effective)

> Fibreglass mag cracks in the field, Germans use Aluminium, steel or polymer , which work better. No need for transparent, no shortcomings felt in German and US designs w/o transparent magazine

> Provision for underbarrel pictanny rail, whose drawings are available on the internet (OFB guy in-charge either doesnt have access to internet, or if available, is busy surfing other topics of National Interest)

The OFB , having sold a million INSAS, should have captalized on it and offered a better Mk-II. Army has said they want to import the next generation weapon, but if shortcomings in INSAS were adressed, they might have ordered a further 1 million from OFB itself. OFB should have been on their toes. Right now, they have lost their credibility and we will import the monkey wrench technology from some foreign firm.

 

[acetophenol]

Is Pre discharge chambers fitted in every INSAS?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Didn't get your question, There is a firing chamber only ( The firing chamber discharge cartridge ( case ) when fire firing pin hits the primer of the bullet ( case ) ., )

Or

INSAS can be completely striped, Every part ..

Is Pre discharge chambers fitted in every INSAS?

 

[sydsnyper]

@Kunal sir

I have used a few firearms in gun clubs, and it is probably because of zero training and experience, I found barrel rise and recoil to be dampners for accurate subsequent shots (i know I am stating the obvious).

Since we have a rifle entirely designed by us in the INSAS, is it not possible to house the barrel and the bolt assembly to float inside the rifle chassis extending into an appropriate spring that goes along the length of the buttstock and ends in the butt plate. This would allow the user to make more accurate subsequent shots.

Also, I saw some youtube videos where the Tavor was extolled to be accurate because it can control excessive recoil and barrel rise because of all its weight being shifted towards the shoulder. Would it not be better for licensing the Tavor design and then customizing all our battle rifles to use the same design so that there is uniformity of equipment among our frontline troops (with of course a few units using AK - who would want to get rid of them...)

Another experience I would like to quote is in the shooting experience of a Berreta and a Glock. I found the beretta to be far more accurate for my untrained hands v/s the glock. All that lightness caused the pistol to whip around after each shot, whereas the berreta was steady (owing to its weight of course). Our Army chiefly uses the Browning Hi-Power. How does the browning high power stand up to the glock or the berreta.

 

[acetophenol]

Didn't get your question, There is a firing chamber only ( The firing chamber discharge cartridge ( case ) when fire firing pin hits the primer of the bullet ( case ) ., )

Or

INSAS can be completely striped, Every part ..

I was talking about the pre discharge chamber,a device designed and patented by OFB.Infact,it was from your post I heard about it the first time!

43.PDC: Pre-Discharge Chamber Name: It is called the PDC or
Pre-Discharge Chamber.
Operation: When the bullet
passes the gas-outlet on top,
some of the gas goes into the
gas-pipe on the top of the barrel and pushes the piston
back. Now, the bullet travels
further forward and part of
the remaining expanding gas
gets into the PDC under the
barrel and expands (and cools down due to Joule-
Thompson effect). As the
bullet exits the barrel, there is
a sudden reduction in
pressure at the barrel end
and the the gas inside the PDC is sucked out.
Purpose: Reduction of the
temperature, and
consequently, the flash of the
exhaust gas following
discharge of the bullet from the barrel; the flash being
otherwise extremely
noticeable in short barreled
firearms.
Patent: Yes. Owned by OFB

http://-----------/threads/made-in-india-military-weapons-and-support-systems.172935/page-2

 

[Waffen SS]

@Kunal Biswas At least I found 1 advantage of having 3 round burst in INSAS, now-a-days soldiers are given bullet resistant vests, here 3 round burst of INSAS will act like TANDEM HEAT warhead. In 3 round Burst, 1 st round will damage the vest in a single point, 2nd round will make a hole in that point which is already damaged by 1st round, the 3rd round will go through hole and hit the human body inside, it is possible because in 3 round burst all bullets will hit a single point, hitting in single point of bullet resistant vest again and again from semi-automatic and automatic mode is completely impossible.

As body armour penetration as a matter of now-a-days so I think we should use 7.62 mm rounds for high armour breaking capacity.

Please clear your inbox, I want to send you message regarding 1971 and 1965 war.

 

[DivineHeretic]

@Kunal Biswas At least I found 1 advantage of having 3 round burst in INSAS, now-a-days soldiers are given bullet resistant vests, here 3 round burst of INSAS will act like TANDEM HEAT warhead. In 3 round Burst, 1 st round will damage the vest in a single point, 2nd round will make a hole in that point which is already damaged by 1st round, the 3rd round will go through hole and hit the human body inside, it is possible because in 3 round burst all bullets will hit a single point, hitting in single point of bullet resistant vest again and again from semi-automatic and automatic mode is completely impossible.

As body armour penetration as a matter of now-a-days so I think we should use 7.62 mm rounds for high armour breaking capacity.

Please clear your inbox, I want to send you message regarding 1971 and 1965 war.

There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding on your part or on the part of the person who came up with the above idea.

The gun is subjected to vibrations, motions on all three axis at any point of time, no matter how still the person may be. The vibrations may be very minute, but they always exist. As a result, the barrel of the gun under no circumstances can be at the exact same position as a moment before, even if the difference is fractions of a degree.

Further, due to the recoil kick of a gun after firing a bullet, the barrel position is altered considerably, and this affects the next two shots exiting the barrel. This is why the soldier will look into his grouping of shots

Thus you can never hit anyone at the same spot twice.

Having said that, there are three ways of getting that near perfect accuracy that you talk about.

1. Use a floating barrel: This idea involves damping the vibrations reaching the barrel. Here the barrel is allowed to 'float' on springs without any part of barrel touching the main body As a result, the barrel is insulated/shielded from unwanted motion, leading to very accurate shots over long distances.

Also, since the barrel is floating, it invariably moves into its original position after each shot.

Best example, if not the only example is the Barrett series of sniper rifles

2. Use of Recoil dampeners/shock absorbers: The next way, and also seemingly the only viable way of getting perfect accuracy is this method. As of now this is the domain of the TDI Vector (KRISS Super V) Submachine Gun.

The firearm is designed utilizing an "in-line" approach in which the major internal working components and firing function follow an imaginary line from barrel to stock. The idea behind the approach is the centralizing of physical forces to work in conjunction with the operator's grip to help reduce inherent recoil and muzzle climb - two detrimental factors to the accuracy of any firearm.

The design approach reportedly results in greatly increased accuracy, recoil reduction (by as much as 60%) and nearly no muzzle climb whatsoever even when the weapon is fired on full-automatic. In fact, landing one round directly behind the other had been achieved utilizing a KRISS 2-round burst in tests.


3. Electronic firing with multiple barrels: This idea is straight out of a science fiction, but is available as a handgun in reality already. The idea is simple enough. Get multiple barrels to shoot multiple rounds simultaneously before recoil kicks in.

This makes the entire first set of bullets hit with the same accuracy as the first shot, as recoil doesn't kick in until after the bullets have left the handgun.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yes, I remember ..

That chamber is experimental, Its not into regular INSAS as such device is not in GSQR requirement ..

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==================
@sydsnyper,

INSAS bullpup was rejected in favor of importing TAR-21, When there were talks about issuing to regulars there was a famous quote by some General " Bullpup wont be looking gud in parade " , I hoped this was selected but its not so .. We are today using traditional design.

Better than Glock, Hi - power is Hi - power ..

==================
==================

Most Soldiers use single shots they don`t prefer full-auto or burst, They only time a rifleman feel for full auto is when need to pin down enemy or providing suppressive fire for buddy, Except these two there is not much use of full-auto or even burst ..

Must watch it full, Ballistics of bullets are very mysterious in different conditions, But in the vid every time 5.56mm does penetrate ..


OFB 64gr 5.56mm whose velocity and weight is also more than NATO green-tip 62 gr bullet ..

One can shred a BP plate from ranges upto 600ms ( With Optics ) ..

I was talking about the pre discharge chamber,a device designed and patented by OFB.Infact,it was from your post I heard about it the first time!

@<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=8795" target="_blank">Kunal</a> sir

I have used a few firearms in gun clubs, and it is probably because of zero training and experience, I found barrel rise and recoil to be dampners for accurate subsequent shots (i know I am stating the obvious).

Since we have a rifle entirely designed by us in the INSAS, is it not possible to house the barrel and the bolt assembly to float inside the rifle chassis extending into an appropriate spring that goes along the length of the buttstock and ends in the butt plate. This would allow the user to make more accurate subsequent shots.

Also, I saw some youtube videos where the Tavor was extolled to be accurate because it can control excessive recoil and barrel rise because of all its weight being shifted towards the shoulder. Would it not be better for licensing the Tavor design and then customizing all our battle rifles to use the same design so that there is uniformity of equipment among our frontline troops (with of course a few units using AK - who would want to get rid of them...)

Another experience I would like to quote is in the shooting experience of a Berreta and a Glock. I found the beretta to be far more accurate for my untrained hands v/s the glock. All that lightness caused the pistol to whip around after each shot, whereas the berreta was steady (owing to its weight of course). Our Army chiefly uses the Browning Hi-Power. How does the browning high power stand up to the glock or the berreta.

@<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=4163" target="_blank">Kunal Biswas</a> At least I found 1 advantage of having 3 round burst in INSAS, now-a-days soldiers are given bullet resistant vests, here 3 round burst of INSAS will act like TANDEM HEAT warhead. In 3 round Burst, 1 st round will damage the vest in a single point, 2nd round will make a hole in that point which is already damaged by 1st round, the 3rd round will go through hole and hit the human body inside, it is possible because in 3 round burst all bullets will hit a single point, hitting in single point of bullet resistant vest again and again from semi-automatic and automatic mode is completely impossible.

As body armour penetration as a matter of now-a-days so I think we should use 7.62 mm rounds for high armour breaking capacity.

Please clear your inbox, I want to send you message regarding 1971 and 1965 war.

 

[sayareakd]

@Kunal Biswas At least I found 1 advantage of having 3 round burst in INSAS, now-a-days soldiers are given bullet resistant vests, here 3 round burst of INSAS will act like TANDEM HEAT warhead. In 3 round Burst, 1 st round will damage the vest in a single point, 2nd round will make a hole in that point which is already damaged by 1st round, the 3rd round will go through hole and hit the human body inside, it is possible because in 3 round burst all bullets will hit a single point, hitting in single point of bullet resistant vest again and again from semi-automatic and automatic mode is completely impossible.

As body armour penetration as a matter of now-a-days so I think we should use 7.62 mm rounds for high armour breaking capacity.

Please clear your inbox, I want to send you message regarding 1971 and 1965 war.

I never fire INSAS, but 3 bust mode IMHO along with the rifle recoil is suppose to hit the target which is difficult to intercept or on move so that any one of the bullets should hit its target, it appears that is the idea. About the bullet getting pass BPJ like tandem warhead like tank round. Hitting the target at 200-400 meters at same point it bit difficult for 3 round bust. May be @Kunal Biswas sir can say about it. Still think that is not the original idea of 3 bust mode.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The original Idea of burst fire is conservation of ammo, Rest are secondary ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Rare Picture Of INSAS 1B1 ( Improved ) & INSAS LMG with Optics and Cheek Support ..

LMG in this config is extremely accurate, Even can act as DMR in Semi Auto mode .

 

[acetophenol]

How is INSAS compared to other rifles in terms of maintenance?

 

[pmaitra]

Is Pre discharge chambers fitted in every INSAS?

No.

I was talking about the pre discharge chamber,a device designed and patented by OFB.Infact,it was from your post I heard about it the first time!

http://-----------/threads/made-in-india-military-weapons-and-support-systems.172935/page-2

Refer to this:

PDC: Pre-Discharge Chamber

There has been enough speculation about the short cylinder under the barrel of the Kalantak'07, highlighted in red boxes in the two images below:

Name: It is called the PDC or Pre-Discharge Chamber.

Operation: When the bullet passes the gas-outlet on top, some of the gas goes into the gas-pipe on the top of the barrel and pushes the piston back. Now, the bullet travels further forward and part of the remaining expanding gas gets into the PDC under the barrel and expands (and cools down due to Joule-Thompson effect). As the bullet exits the barrel, there is a sudden reduction in pressure at the barrel end and the the gas inside the PDC is sucked out.

Purpose: Reduction of the temperature, and consequently, the flash of the exhaust gas following discharge of the bullet from the barrel; the flash being otherwise extremely noticeable in short barreled firearms.

Patent: Yes. Owned by OFB.

Source: My 'friend,' a junior employee at RFI today asked his 'sir' and actually met one of the scientists who perfected this device.

Additionally, one could attach a Krinkov-style muzzle brake, that would have an expansion chamber and perform the same function. Can muzzle-brakes be attached on the INSAS? I think @Kunal Biswas can confirm that.