INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Kunal Biswas]

Pictures from counter insurgency areas ..

==================

New PNS or Thermal sights on Older 1B1 and AKM ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

From recent expo, I am glad to see both AK inspired variant together ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Photo from 2011, Furniture is fiber ..

Photo credit : @sayareakd Sir ..

Photo from 2016, furniture is wooden,

Interesting comparison between two models from different times, It seems like the requirement was updated and some changes are like need for suppressor, Wooden furniture, P-rails, better iron sights both rear and front, Bipod mounts are moved forward, Cheek rest design is changed and etc minor details ..

 

[Johny_Baba]

Photo credit : @Sayreakd Sir ..


Interesting comparison between two models from different times, It seems like the requirement was updated and some changes are like need for suppressor, Wooden furniture, P-rails, better iron sights both rear and front, Bipod mounts are moved forward, Cheek rest design is changed and etc minor details ..

I think they changed the bolt system as well.Older sniper rifle has Lee Enfield style cocked-on-closed bolt action,while it appears newer rifle has Multi-lug cocked-on-open type bolt system(might be inspired from Steyr SSG-69).

 

[porky_kicker]

SLR in DMR role.........................................

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Brand new, Ishapore SLR 7.62 mm 1A1 with Indian Infantrymen at front-line.

Their is story behind this photo during 1971 ..

=======
=======

I was thinking about keeping post no #3167 or not in this thread as its not related to INSAS, INSAS came after 90s, But again Indian SLR has its own story which made me to post related material in this reply ..

SLR in DMR role.........................................

View attachment 21434

 

[soikot banerjee]

KUDOS TO MAKE IN INDIA
Gen. Bipin Rawath Says:
Out of 800000 Rifles required:
1. 250000 will be from foreign vendors
2.550000 will be either INSAS 1C or Ghatak

pic: INSAS Mk-1c

"
The army’s highest levels have arrived at a vital decision that could open the doors to buying new rifles for the entire army, while remaining within a strained procurement budget. The decision is to equip infantry soldiers with a world-class assault rifle, while non-infantry soldiers would get a cheaper, less effective, indigenous rifle.

Earlier, the army had planned to procure some 800,000 state-of-the-art assault rifles from the global market, each costing about Rs 200,000. That would have cost about Rs 16,000 crore – significantly more than what the army can afford.

Now, army chief General Bipin Rawat has decided to buy only 250,000 assault rifles from the international market, and issue them only to combat infantrymen – the frontline foot soldiers who are directly in contact with the enemy.

The remaining 550,000 army soldiers who are authorised rifles but serve mainly in non-infantry arms and services will get a new indigenous rifle. The army will choose between the INSAS-1C, designed by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO); and the Ghatak, designed by Ordnance Factory, Kirkee. These are less lethal than the infantry’s assault rifles, but also significantly cheaper, at about Rs 50,000 apiece.

“My thinking is: Since a state-of-the-art assault rifle will cost about Rs 200,000 each in the global market, let us issue these only to frontline infantry soldiers who confront the enemy armed only with their rifles,” Rawat told Business Standard. “Let us provide a cheaper indigenous option to other soldiers, for whom the rifle is not a primary weapon,” he added.

The chief explains the army has evaluated two different weapons philosophies. The assault rifle it has chosen for the infantry is a weapon optimised for conventional war, with a longer range and a larger bullet that kills or completely incapacitates the enemy soldiers that it strikes. It is also equipped with a night vision sight. The second type of weapon, which will arm non-infantry units, is optimised for counter-insurgency operations, being lighter and with a smaller bullet that a soldier can carry in larger numbers.

* * * *

A variation of this debate played out in the Indian Army in the 1970s, when it was looking to replace its old 7.62 millimetre self-loading rifles (SLRs). At that time, it was argued that the army should get a 5.56 mm rifle, since that would not just be lighter, but it would also injure, rather than kill, an enemy soldier. That would take out of battle not just the enemy who was shot, but additional enemy soldiers who would be tied up in evacuating the casualty.

This resulted in the army equipping itself with the 5.56 mm INSAS-1B1, manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). However, the army was unhappy with the INSAS-1B1, complaining that it was prone to stoppages, and that jihadi militants (and Pakistani soldiers in the Kargil conflict) who were shot by its lighter bullet did not always get incapacitated.

“We would shoot a militant with the INSAS and he would just keep coming at us. That is why we have always preferred to use the 7.62 mm AK-47 in Kashmir, rather than the INSAS,” says Lieutenant General VP Singh, a recently retired officer who has served multiple tenures in Jammu & Kashmir (J&K).

Notwithstanding this, only the infantry is going back to 7.62 mm calibre rifles. The bulk of the army will get 5.56 mm rifles, which means that the stock of older AK-47 rifles, which equip specialist Rashtriya Rifles counter-insurgency units, would have to remain the mainstay of operations in J&K and the Northeast.

Rifle economics

The army currently fields 382 regular infantry battalions, 28 mechanised infantry battalions, 23 Guards battalions and nine Vikas and Scouts battalions, adding up to 442 battalions of infantry and its equivalent.

Even within an infantry battalion, not every one of its 800-odd soldiers will be issued a 7.62 mm assault rifle. These will go only to soldiers who can expect to be in direct contact with the enemy: its four rifle companies and the commando platoon (called Ghataks), totalling up to about 565 persons per battalion. The remaining personnel would be issued other weapons such as 5.56 mm carbines and rifles. At 565 rifles for each of these infantry units, the total adds up to 250,000 rifles.

At Rs 200,000 for each foreign assault rifle, equipping these 250,000 infantrymen will cost Rs 5,000 crore. For the remaining 550,000 non-infantry soldiers, their indigenous rifles – INSAS-1C or the Ghatak rifle, whichever is chosen – would be priced more cheaply at Rs 50,000 each, totalling up to Rs 2,750 crore. This foreign and indigenous mix of 800,000 rifles adds up to Rs 7,750 crore – saving Rs 8,250 crore, or more than half the Rs 16,000 crore cost of buying foreign assault rifles for the entire army.

The Ghatak and INSAS 1C both remain works in progress, with the army chief confirming to Business Standard there were minor problems during trial firing in summer, including stoppages that exceeded permissible limits. “However, there are significant improvements in those indigenous rifles too, and we expect the OFB and DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) to improve them quickly to meet our expectations,” Rawat said.

“We will not delay any further on the procurement process. I have passed orders for the RFP (Request for Proposals, as the tender is called) to be issued by the end of this year,” Rawat added.

The Rs 2 lakh cost of a state-of-the-art 7.62 mm assault rifle includes the cost of “reflex sights” and “night sights” that make it easier to aim and shoot with a high degree of accuracy, including at night. Without these add-ons, an assault rifle is fired with the help of its in-built sights – the soldier aligns a “rear sight” and “fore sight” on the rifles barrel with the target before squeezing the trigger. This requires a degree of skill and is tiring to the eye. With a reflex sight, which is fitted onto a small rail on the rifle (called a Picatinny Rail), the soldier only has to look towards the target through a small telescope, and align a red dot in the sight with the target before firing.

A modern reflex/night sight today costs as much as the rifle on which it is fitted – up to Rs 100,000.

F-INSAS

For years, the Indian Army approached the acquisition of personal weapons, such as rifles and carbines, as part of the expansively named “Future Infantry Soldier as a System” (F-INSAS) programme. This aspired to integrate a soldier, along with his personal weapons and communications equipment, into a digitally networked battlefield management system. With this proving too ambitious, the army has now split the F-INSAS initiative into two distinct parts – the acquisition of personal weapons and, separately, a digitisation project termed the “Battlefield Management System” that is being pursued as a “Make” project in India.

* * * *

Infantry weapons and equipment have seldom received the attention that is lavished on more glamorous and expensive weaponry like aircraft, warships, submarines or tanks. However, with the infantry constantly engaged in live operations on the Line of Control with Pakistan, the Line of Actual Control with China and in counter-insurgency operations in J&K and the Northeast, there is a growing recognition of the need to upgrade the infantry soldier, particularly his personal weapon, says Lt Gen Singh.

The need for infantry modernisation is especially urgent in India’s operational milieu, where rugged mountain and jungle terrain limits the applicability and effectiveness of support weapons and air power, making the infantryman the final arbiter of battle.

The role of India’s infantry has remained largely unchanged since independence: to close in with and destroy the enemy. In defensive operations, the infantry physically holds ground against all forms of enemy attack. The infantry is trained and tasked to fight to the end, firing rifles and machine guns and, when ammunition runs out, fighting hand to hand with bayonets – a long knife attached to the rifle.

In an attack, while tanks often lead and the artillery provides fire support, eventually it is the infantryman – no women are allowed yet into this most physical of combat arms – who must physically occupy the enemy’s positions, charging at them in the face of their firing. All he can rely on with certainty is his personal weapon – the rifle or the LMG.

The basic simplicity of the infantry’s role and the tenacity needed to discharge it eminently suits the Indian soldier. In active service around the world, including through two World Wars, the Indian infantryman has earned a formidable reputation for tenacity and courage.

“The defence ministry can spend Rs 58,000 crore on just 36 Rafale fighters. But it finds it difficult to spend Rs 16,000 crore on giving modern assault rifles to 800,000 soldiers. Sitting on our border posts at 15,000 feet, we marvel at these priorities,” says the commanding officer of an infantry battalion, talking over the phone.

link:http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in"

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

This is a joke in the name of Make in India. Foreign rifles have repetedly failed in army trials. Without even clearing army trials how can a decision be made to induct them?

 

[Chinmoy]

This is a joke in the name of Make in India. Foreign rifles have repetedly failed in army trials. Without even clearing army trials how can a decision be made to induct them?

Bipin Rawat never mentioned foreign vendor in the briefing. He only mentioned from global market and about RFP. But our very own Ajai Shukla made it global market foreign vendor.
All in all it means that OFB has less then a month to polish off their own 7.62 NATO firing rifle.

 

[Spectribution]

Eventually it is the infantryman – no women are allowed yet into this most physical of combat arms – who must physically occupy the enemy’s positions, charging at them in the face of their firing.

Notice the subtle liberal bullshit being pushed by Ajai Shukla on order of his foreign Dalals. Since the Kolkata Class debate on no. of Barak 8 (32 or 64) VLS present his information has been absolutely inaccurate.

 

[Brij Ray]

What options do we have in7. 62x51 calibre from foreign venxors. Didn't they all fail in trials?

 

[abingdonboy]

KUDOS TO MAKE IN INDIA
Gen. Bipin Rawath Says:
Out of 800000 Rifles required:
1. 250000 will be from foreign vendors
2.550000 will be either INSAS 1C or Ghatak

pic: INSAS Mk-1c

"
The army’s highest levels have arrived at a vital decision that could open the doors to buying new rifles for the entire army, while remaining within a strained procurement budget. The decision is to equip infantry soldiers with a world-class assault rifle, while non-infantry soldiers would get a cheaper, less effective, indigenous rifle.

Earlier, the army had planned to procure some 800,000 state-of-the-art assault rifles from the global market, each costing about Rs 200,000. That would have cost about Rs 16,000 crore – significantly more than what the army can afford.

Now, army chief General Bipin Rawat has decided to buy only 250,000 assault rifles from the international market, and issue them only to combat infantrymen – the frontline foot soldiers who are directly in contact with the enemy.

The remaining 550,000 army soldiers who are authorised rifles but serve mainly in non-infantry arms and services will get a new indigenous rifle. The army will choose between the INSAS-1C, designed by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO); and the Ghatak, designed by Ordnance Factory, Kirkee. These are less lethal than the infantry’s assault rifles, but also significantly cheaper, at about Rs 50,000 apiece.

“My thinking is: Since a state-of-the-art assault rifle will cost about Rs 200,000 each in the global market, let us issue these only to frontline infantry soldiers who confront the enemy armed only with their rifles,” Rawat told Business Standard. “Let us provide a cheaper indigenous option to other soldiers, for whom the rifle is not a primary weapon,” he added.

The chief explains the army has evaluated two different weapons philosophies. The assault rifle it has chosen for the infantry is a weapon optimised for conventional war, with a longer range and a larger bullet that kills or completely incapacitates the enemy soldiers that it strikes. It is also equipped with a night vision sight. The second type of weapon, which will arm non-infantry units, is optimised for counter-insurgency operations, being lighter and with a smaller bullet that a soldier can carry in larger numbers.

* * * *

A variation of this debate played out in the Indian Army in the 1970s, when it was looking to replace its old 7.62 millimetre self-loading rifles (SLRs). At that time, it was argued that the army should get a 5.56 mm rifle, since that would not just be lighter, but it would also injure, rather than kill, an enemy soldier. That would take out of battle not just the enemy who was shot, but additional enemy soldiers who would be tied up in evacuating the casualty.

This resulted in the army equipping itself with the 5.56 mm INSAS-1B1, manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). However, the army was unhappy with the INSAS-1B1, complaining that it was prone to stoppages, and that jihadi militants (and Pakistani soldiers in the Kargil conflict) who were shot by its lighter bullet did not always get incapacitated.

“We would shoot a militant with the INSAS and he would just keep coming at us. That is why we have always preferred to use the 7.62 mm AK-47 in Kashmir, rather than the INSAS,” says Lieutenant General VP Singh, a recently retired officer who has served multiple tenures in Jammu & Kashmir (J&K).

Notwithstanding this, only the infantry is going back to 7.62 mm calibre rifles. The bulk of the army will get 5.56 mm rifles, which means that the stock of older AK-47 rifles, which equip specialist Rashtriya Rifles counter-insurgency units, would have to remain the mainstay of operations in J&K and the Northeast.

Rifle economics

The army currently fields 382 regular infantry battalions, 28 mechanised infantry battalions, 23 Guards battalions and nine Vikas and Scouts battalions, adding up to 442 battalions of infantry and its equivalent.

Even within an infantry battalion, not every one of its 800-odd soldiers will be issued a 7.62 mm assault rifle. These will go only to soldiers who can expect to be in direct contact with the enemy: its four rifle companies and the commando platoon (called Ghataks), totalling up to about 565 persons per battalion. The remaining personnel would be issued other weapons such as 5.56 mm carbines and rifles. At 565 rifles for each of these infantry units, the total adds up to 250,000 rifles.

At Rs 200,000 for each foreign assault rifle, equipping these 250,000 infantrymen will cost Rs 5,000 crore. For the remaining 550,000 non-infantry soldiers, their indigenous rifles – INSAS-1C or the Ghatak rifle, whichever is chosen – would be priced more cheaply at Rs 50,000 each, totalling up to Rs 2,750 crore. This foreign and indigenous mix of 800,000 rifles adds up to Rs 7,750 crore – saving Rs 8,250 crore, or more than half the Rs 16,000 crore cost of buying foreign assault rifles for the entire army.

The Ghatak and INSAS 1C both remain works in progress, with the army chief confirming to Business Standard there were minor problems during trial firing in summer, including stoppages that exceeded permissible limits. “However, there are significant improvements in those indigenous rifles too, and we expect the OFB and DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) to improve them quickly to meet our expectations,” Rawat said.

“We will not delay any further on the procurement process. I have passed orders for the RFP (Request for Proposals, as the tender is called) to be issued by the end of this year,” Rawat added.

The Rs 2 lakh cost of a state-of-the-art 7.62 mm assault rifle includes the cost of “reflex sights” and “night sights” that make it easier to aim and shoot with a high degree of accuracy, including at night. Without these add-ons, an assault rifle is fired with the help of its in-built sights – the soldier aligns a “rear sight” and “fore sight” on the rifles barrel with the target before squeezing the trigger. This requires a degree of skill and is tiring to the eye. With a reflex sight, which is fitted onto a small rail on the rifle (called a Picatinny Rail), the soldier only has to look towards the target through a small telescope, and align a red dot in the sight with the target before firing.

A modern reflex/night sight today costs as much as the rifle on which it is fitted – up to Rs 100,000.

F-INSAS

For years, the Indian Army approached the acquisition of personal weapons, such as rifles and carbines, as part of the expansively named “Future Infantry Soldier as a System” (F-INSAS) programme. This aspired to integrate a soldier, along with his personal weapons and communications equipment, into a digitally networked battlefield management system. With this proving too ambitious, the army has now split the F-INSAS initiative into two distinct parts – the acquisition of personal weapons and, separately, a digitisation project termed the “Battlefield Management System” that is being pursued as a “Make” project in India.

* * * *

Infantry weapons and equipment have seldom received the attention that is lavished on more glamorous and expensive weaponry like aircraft, warships, submarines or tanks. However, with the infantry constantly engaged in live operations on the Line of Control with Pakistan, the Line of Actual Control with China and in counter-insurgency operations in J&K and the Northeast, there is a growing recognition of the need to upgrade the infantry soldier, particularly his personal weapon, says Lt Gen Singh.

The need for infantry modernisation is especially urgent in India’s operational milieu, where rugged mountain and jungle terrain limits the applicability and effectiveness of support weapons and air power, making the infantryman the final arbiter of battle.

The role of India’s infantry has remained largely unchanged since independence: to close in with and destroy the enemy. In defensive operations, the infantry physically holds ground against all forms of enemy attack. The infantry is trained and tasked to fight to the end, firing rifles and machine guns and, when ammunition runs out, fighting hand to hand with bayonets – a long knife attached to the rifle.

In an attack, while tanks often lead and the artillery provides fire support, eventually it is the infantryman – no women are allowed yet into this most physical of combat arms – who must physically occupy the enemy’s positions, charging at them in the face of their firing. All he can rely on with certainty is his personal weapon – the rifle or the LMG.

The basic simplicity of the infantry’s role and the tenacity needed to discharge it eminently suits the Indian soldier. In active service around the world, including through two World Wars, the Indian infantryman has earned a formidable reputation for tenacity and courage.

“The defence ministry can spend Rs 58,000 crore on just 36 Rafale fighters. But it finds it difficult to spend Rs 16,000 crore on giving modern assault rifles to 800,000 soldiers. Sitting on our border posts at 15,000 feet, we marvel at these priorities,” says the commanding officer of an infantry battalion, talking over the phone.

link:http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in"

The downright betrayal of Indian efforts here is unpalatable. Both the media and the army are set on insulting all Indian rifles to the point where they aren't even suitable for frontline service.

To have 1 assualt rifle for the infantry and another "lesser" rifle for service arms would be unique to the IA and would be a truly pathetic sight.

What an utter disgrace, no doubt the media and army generals are lining their pockets nicely from the proposed foreign rifle buy, there is no other reason to explain this utter treason.

"Make in India", what a joke! World's third largest army will have the utter humiliation of having IMPORTED rifles.

Indian scientists can send probes to mars but can't make a decent rifle is what these corrupt bstards in the IA want us to believe.....

 

[abingdonboy]

What is wrong with these so-called "nationalists" in govt? Sabotages LCA project with SE jet tender that is utterly pointless and now this, MK.1C would do the job or the new 7.62 NATO rifle but instead it is yet another IMPORT that is being pushed and yet more money flowing into the hands of foreigners.....

 

[binayak95]

What options do we have in7. 62x51 calibre from foreign venxors. Didn't they all fail in trials?

The army seems serious about returning to the 7.62x51 round. This is not surprising. I'd say the choice is between the Galil and the SCAR-H.

I would welcome this move. At the very least, huge numbers of Mk1Cs will see service, and once they have stabilised the production and further improvements made, it will be hard for the IA to say no to this rifle.

As it is, the IA uses different weapons for different purposes. For COIN, we use AKMs, Ghataks and TARs and everywhere else, we use the INSAS.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

I think they changed the bolt system as well.Older sniper rifle has Lee Enfield style cocked-on-closed bolt action,while it appears newer rifle has Multi-lug cocked-on-open type bolt system(might be inspired from Steyr SSG-69).

Not to be nitpicky or off-topic, but the locking lug location and the cocking action are actually not tied together, although millions of front lug, cock-on-open mauser actions out there may give that impression. For example, the pattern 1913 enfield rifle has mauser like front lug and big claw extractor on the side, but cocks on close. SSG 69 is exactly opposite by having rear locking lugs, and cock-on-open action. Also it should be mentioned that front lug actions are seen as stronger, and is required for magnum loadings.

 

[Vinod DX9]

So INSAS 1C has a big chance to be in large no in Indian Army
http://thestrategictimes.com/army-to-get-both-indigenous-and-foreign-rifles/

 

[abingdonboy]

By the way this seems to be an update of the conventional IA philosphy- having a "battle rifle" for infantry of 5.56mm calibre (also for all support services) -currently INSAS and having a "COIN rifle" of 7.62mm for RR and such units for CI/CT- currently AKs fill this role.

So is it simply a case of a foreign rifle coming for the COIN role and MK.1C for the typical "battle rifle" role? Even if that's true there's no reason the OFB 7.62 NATO rifle couldn't fit the COIN role also.

But then Shukla entirely messes this up by saying it's the 7.62 that is needed for the infantry role when it would be needed for the conventional infantry role instead.


Shukla is spinning this as the Indian rifle being inducted for the battle role because it's inferior but in reality it is just role specific and has nothing to do with which is "better" or "worse."


Between poor reporting and pathetic messeging by the army god knows what the truth is.

 

[Kshithij]

Lack of libel suits against such authors creates such spins which makes no sense. I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow such authors claim that Superman's laser sights have been reverse engineered. They pretty much can say anything

 

[Vinod DX9]

INSAS 1C or Ghatak? Which will be better?

 

[WolfPack86]

I think INSAS 1C will be better for regular troops and let's give Ghatak rifle to coin troops.