INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[soikot banerjee]

The downright betrayal of Indian efforts here is unpalatable. Both the media and the army are set on insulting all Indian rifles to the point where they aren't even suitable for frontline service.

To have 1 assualt rifle for the infantry and another "lesser" rifle for service arms would be unique to the IA and would be a truly pathetic sight.

What an utter disgrace, no doubt the media and army generals are lining their pockets nicely from the proposed foreign rifle buy, there is no other reason to explain this utter treason.

"Make in India", what a joke! World's third largest army will have the utter humiliation of having IMPORTED rifles.

Indian scientists can send probes to mars but can't make a decent rifle is what these corrupt bstards in the IA want us to believe.....

INSAS or GHATAK JUST SAW BEING PUT DOWN THE THROAT OF IA BY MOD.
THAT EXACTLY THE SAME HOW LCA-TEJAS WAS PUSHED.

THE FIRST STEP IS NOT TO MAKE THEM BELIEVE THAT INDIGENOUS PRODUCT SUPERIOR BUT IT IS TO MAKE THERE "COLONIAL SUPERIORITY EGO " OF YEARS TO BE SMASHED INTO PIECES AND BRUTALLY INSULTING THERE COLONIAL LINE OF THOUGHTS.

550000 INDIGENOUS RIFLE JUST DID THAT, RIGHT ON THEIR DAMN FACE!

 

[WolfPack86]

INSAS or GHATAK JUST SAW BEING PUT DOWN THE THROAT OF IA BY MOD.
THAT EXACTLY THE SAME HOW LCA-TEJAS WAS PUSHED.

THE FIRST STEP IS NOT TO MAKE THEM BELIEVE THAT INDIGENOUS PRODUCT SUPERIOR BUT IT IS TO MAKE THERE "COLONIAL SUPERIORITY EGO " OF YEARS TO BE SMASHED INTO PIECES AND BRUTALLY INSULTING THERE COLONIAL LINE OF THOUGHTS.

550000 INDIGENOUS RIFLE JUST DID THAT, RIGHT ON THEIR DAMN FACE!

Yes you are right this is a way to deal with import lobby people, i am very happpy that present defence minister going a good job.

 

[soikot banerjee]

Yes you are right this is a way to deal with import lobby people, i am very happpy that present defence minister going a good job.

Cleverly she took care of the lobby too by keeping 250000 rifles, just so that they don't create unnecessary noises against the indigenous one, but shukla turned the cards straight down in the article by saying others will get "make in india" makes me feel he has inferiority complex too.
If he believes INSAS 1C or Ghatak is not effective, how about we make him a target at the upper limit of the range of these guns, then he may know what is effective or substandard what is not!
Needless to say he should mention it was the predecessor of INSAS1C i.e excalibur that passed the trials rest of the rifles of his "BIRADRI" failed, he should have mentioned that too in the article!

 

[aditya g]

The debate b/w 556x30 and 762x51 seems unresolvable.

Only 762x39 round reigns supreme with no noise from any quarter. I think this is the easiest choice to make and Ghatak should basically replace all mofussil AK variants in service with Rashtriya Rifles and Assam Rifles.

While I respect Armys preference for 762x51 the story is far from over as we have to see which rifle actually makes the cut.

Pak Army had a major competition recently and they have settled in for 762x39 round. IMHO practical as that allows 1 round for everybody. It will be interesting to know how they made the decision.

@Johny_Baba @abingdonboy @kuna

 

[HarshBardhan]

This time I got a golden chance to visit a BSF Firing Range. When I asked one BSF Soldier about the INSAS problem , he told me just one thing : "Iski goli se insaan jaldi marta nahi". Means , the target is not instantly killed when fired once. Simply shows that 5.56mm ammo is not that effective in the way the trooper talked was. Armed Forces require a 7.62mm Rifle which will be helpful in CT OPs as well.

 

[ezsasa]

This time I got a golden chance to visit a BSF Firing Range. When I asked one BSF Soldier about the INSAS problem , he told me just one thing : "Iski goli se insaan jaldi marta nahi". Means , the target is not instantly killed when fired once. Simply shows that 5.56mm ammo is not that effective in the way the trooper talked was. Armed Forces require a 7.62mm Rifle which will be helpful in CT OPs as well.

Couple of years later, when you ask them about 762 they will say not able to carry much ammo.

Moral : there will be pros and cons for everything.

 

[Immanuel]

If we are going for 7.62*51 from foreign vendors, then SCAR and its variants are ideal, if not the home made 7.62*51 can be further improved to have a final product. SCAR come ready in various barrel sizes and SSR versions. Expensive but perhaps the most reliable weapon of these times.

For the remaining we should stick to an improved Ghatak, drop that hideous current foldable stock and get collapsible one like the version in the pic. Use Zeiss, MEPRO MOR or new BEL holographic sights. These should be standard weapons of BSF, RR, ITBP

Insas MK 1C, JVPC are ideal for law enforcement forces such a Central and state armed police forces

 

[Kshithij]

The debate b/w 5.56x30 and 7.62x51 seems unresolvable.

Only 762x39 round reigns supreme with no noise from any quarter. I think this is the easiest choice to make and Ghatak should basically replace all mofussil AK variants in service with Rashtriya Rifles and Assam Rifles.

While I respect Armys preference for 762x51 the story is far from over as we have to see which rifle actually makes the cut.

Pak Army had a major competition recently and they have settled in for 762x39 round. IMHO practical as that allows 1 round for everybody. It will be interesting to know how they made the decision.

@Johny_Baba @abingdonboy @kuna

It is actually 7.62x51 that is practical as it has penetration and range. The downside is in carrying capacity. 1 7.62x51 weighs about 25.3 grams, whi 5.56 NATO is about 12.5 grams. AK47 ones are 16.5grams in weight.

The carrying capacity will be halved with 7.62 NATO compared to 5.56NATO but at the same time, the range and power will increase. 7.62x51 is also capable of being used for sniping at 400-500 metres and fighting in forests.

In general 95% of the rounds miss and hence the rounds that strike is more crucial than total rounds. If the rounds that hit are powerful, the carry capacity compromise is worth it

 

[Kay]

@aditya g Any assault rifle caliber is a compromise between range, weight and stopping power. Also having single or multiple calibers is a compromise. A decision needs to be taken we need to stick with it. Indecision is a problem.
@WolfPack86 The best way to deal with import lobbies is to kick them out. There is no obligation to satisfy them.
@soikot banerjee Indegenious 7.62x51 mm rifle should be pushed down army's throat. If someone doesn't like it , he/she is free to step aside and let others do the job.

 

[Kshithij]

@aditya g Any assault rifle caliber is a compromise between range, weight and stopping power. Also having single or multiple calibers is a compromise. A decision needs to be taken we need to stick with it. Indecision is a problem.
@WolfPack86 The best way to deal with import lobbies is to kick them out. There is no obligation to satisfy them.
@soikot banerjee Indegenious 7.62x51 mm rifle should be pushed down army's throat. If someone doesn't like it , he/she is free to step aside and let others do the job.

If someone speak too much, just saying that an imported soldier is better than him will work best to make him quiet

 

[abingdonboy]

View attachment 21447 View attachment 21448
INSAS 1C or Ghatak? Which will be better?

The Mk.1C and Ghatak aren't competing against each other- one is 5.56x45mm the other is 7.62x39 mm, the latter the IA has ZERO interest in procuring. They have said they only want 7.62x51mm and 5.56x45mm rifles.

 

[Chinmoy]

Did Bipin Rawat any where mentioned about foreign vendor or did I missed out on any thing here?

More importantly, which foreign system would come at a paltry price of 100,000 INR?

 

[abingdonboy]

INSAS or GHATAK JUST SAW BEING PUT DOWN THE THROAT OF IA BY MOD.
THAT EXACTLY THE SAME HOW LCA-TEJAS WAS PUSHED.

THE FIRST STEP IS NOT TO MAKE THEM BELIEVE THAT INDIGENOUS PRODUCT SUPERIOR BUT IT IS TO MAKE THERE "COLONIAL SUPERIORITY EGO " OF YEARS TO BE SMASHED INTO PIECES AND BRUTALLY INSULTING THERE COLONIAL LINE OF THOUGHTS.

550000 INDIGENOUS RIFLE JUST DID THAT, RIGHT ON THEIR DAMN FACE!

Sadly is the same story across the board, if it was up to the IA every last nut and bolt would be imported, remember these are the clowns that are still procuring SNOW SHOES from foreign vendors!!

Colonial thinking or outright corruption it doesn't matter, such officers need to be purged out of the Indian armed forces, this is a genuine threat to national security.


If it wasn't for the same IA aversion to all things Indian the Arjun would already be in service in the hundreds.

 

[soikot banerjee]

The Mk.1C and Ghatak aren't competing against each other- one is 5.56x45mm the other is 7.62x39 mm, the latter the IA has ZERO interest in procuring. They have said they only want 7.62x51mm and 5.56x45mm rifles.

7.62*51 is for the global tender for infantry units. The article above clearly states COAS saying 550000 other than infantry will have MK1C or Ghatak.

 

[abingdonboy]

This time I got a golden chance to visit a BSF Firing Range. When I asked one BSF Soldier about the INSAS problem , he told me just one thing : "Iski goli se insaan jaldi marta nahi". Means , the target is not instantly killed when fired once. Simply shows that 5.56mm ammo is not that effective in the way the trooper talked was. Armed Forces require a 7.62mm Rifle which will be helpful in CT OPs as well.

And this isn't a fault of the INSAS!

Can we all firstly understand that the INSAS is a result of the IA's requirements, the IA in the 1990s/80s ASKED for a 5.56mm rifle to replace their 7.62 calibre SLRs. This was because the IA had bought into the NATO warfighting doctrine of wounding/maiming the enemy soldier as this would tie down a conventional force more than simply killing the enemy soldier.

So if the INSAS doesn't have enough stopping power in CT/CI roles that is the IA's fault and something they have addressed by issuing the 7.62x39 AK for CT/CI roles.


But it's funny how the pendulums switches, now 20-30 years later the next generation of IA leadership is now asking for 7.62mm once again, I guess this circus will be resumed in 20-30 years from now with the IA asking for 5.56mm for their next next generation assualt rifle!


INSAS is exactly what IA asked for and these clowns have done nothing but bad mouth it from day one even though it has evolved into an excellent tool. If the IA leadership are not able to come up with sensible requirements that is not the tool's fault but the IA's.

 

[abingdonboy]

The article above clearly states COAS saying 550000 other than infantry will have MK1C or Ghatak.

Well that doesn't make any sense as they have two different calibres.

 

[soikot banerjee]

Well that doesn't make any sense as they have two different calibres.

Well COAS has proposed the theory, he knows it better than us, what is going in his mind. Anyways this is how the situation is depicted in the chart:

 

[Kshithij]

Well COAS has proposed the theory, he knows it better than us, what is going in his mind. Anyways this is how the situation is depicted in the chart:View attachment 21449

And that global tender is not necessarily only foreign but also Indian rifles. That editor unnecessarily gives spin.
But, I wonder why is even the 250000 a global tender instead of outright Indian buy? Does USA or Russia or ISrael etc issue global tenders for rifles? Why special rule in India? Why not behave normally?

 

[soikot banerjee]

And that global tender is not necessarily only foreign but also Indian rifles. That editor unnecessarily gives spin.
But, I wonder why is even the 250000 a global tender instead of outright Indian buy? Does USA or Russia or ISrael etc issue global tenders for rifles? Why special rule in India? Why not behave normally?

He is always upset when any indigenous product is said to be inducted. He is not alone there is whole lot of them there.
Probably he won't get paid if his anti-indigenous project lobbying doesn't works.

 

[abingdonboy]

Well COAS has proposed the theory, he knows it better than us, what is going in his mind. Anyways this is how the situation is depicted in the chart:View attachment 21449

So IA could be operating both a 7.62x51 AND 7.62x39 (if Ghatak wins over Mk.1C)? What absurdity.