INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Ancient Indian]

Ok.... the NDTV report is written by Vishnu som. The guy was pretty upset on live TV When 126 rafale deal was cancelled.

We'd rather wait for some time before some more sources to confirm the same.

Right now it is Govt lobby vs foreign lobby news articles coming out.

I don't want to jinx it. But can we guess how the army will reject the rifle?
They wil cite some failures. What are they going to be?

I for one like to know how these things work.

 

[ezsasa]

I don't want to jinx it. But can we guess how the army will reject the rifle?
They wil cite some failures. What are they going to be?

I for one like to know how these things work.

In the morning NDTV Report was saying something like muzzle flash profile & sound profile(don't remember correctly, could also be vibration profile) and magazine needs to be reengineered.

These are the points I can remember.

Experts can comment on if these terms mean anything.

 

[Ancient Indian]

In the morning NDTV Report was saying something like muzzle flash profile & sound profile(don't remember correctly, could also be vibration profile) and magazine needs to be reengineered.

These are the points I can remember.

Experts can comment on if these terms mean anything.

Ok. . No problem. Experts will have huge fights on all forums for the next few days. We can get basic gist of things by this weekend.

Only army is the buyer for these riffles?
Can't the OFB sell them to other parties? Black market option is also to be considered to fix the funding issue for this riffle business.
They can always improve it if the business runs. Or it will also go to shelve and the whole investment will go into drain.
Talk about NPAs.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Thread topic should not be derailed by unreliable information ..

 

[hammer head]

Do you belong to import only lobby group?

Mr Hari Sud before you open your gun do educate yourself on the people your replying too. Unlike you many here dont just sit in thier ac offices and talk like arm chair Generals.

Now to your Import Lobby query, I belong to a Lobby which does not have the time and patience for experiments and where weight and a bloody stoppage in your weapon means life and death.

 

[Kay]

Mr Hari Sud before you open your gun do educate yourself on the people your replying too. Unlike you many here dont just sit in thier ac offices and talk like arm chair Generals.

Now to your Import Lobby query, I belong to a Lobby which does not have the time and patience for experiments and where weight and a bloody stoppage in your weapon means life and death.

Indian guns outperformed foreign guns in recent trials. Foreign guns may look shiny and good but are generally useless and don't deliver in Indian conditions in Siachen and Thar. Guns for Indian soldiers are meant for shooting and killing the enemy in battle, not winning beauty contests.

 

[hammer head]

Kunal, speaking with some guys at CLAWS, they were puzzled by the infantry's request. They could understand 7.62 x 39 but not this. That said, if it works, I'll be happy. Now I have to wonder what will become the section level LMG?

The day Army graduates to 7.62 the Sec level LMG too will be upgraded at the same calibre with interchangable part, Thats one concept Army follows and was the same reason why INSAS family was introduced.

See the army is currently exploring and pondering over multiple issues They want a desi 7.62 of 5.56 or do they want to go for videshi 5.56/7.62.
Ground reality is that the Army wants to stay insync with Make in India but the products being offered are not a leap ahead of thier old counterparts. JV is most probably the way ahead.

 

[ezsasa]

Just curious...

why is there an assumption that all 556 will be converted to 762?
could it be that 20-30% of a section or a platoon will carry 762 (+ LMG)and the rest 556 ?

is this scenario possible?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The rifle went to trails some time back ..

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Leap ahead ?

Ground reality is that the Army wants to stay insync with Make in India but the products being offered are not a leap ahead of thier old counterparts. JV is most probably the way ahead.

 

[hammer head]

Indian guns outperformed foreign guns in recent trials. Foreign guns may look shiny and good but are generally useless and don't deliver in Indian conditions in Siachen and Thar. Guns for Indian soldiers are meant for shooting and killing the enemy in battle, not winning beauty contests.

Kay which Indian gun outperformed which competitor can you pls be specific? Did u read in between the lines in post? I never mentioned i was concerned with the looks of the AR But my concern was the the design. And pls dont mention Siachen and Thar desert other countries too have such varied terrain and they too are utilising they weapons effectively.

 

[hammer head]

The rifle went to trails some time back ..

==============

Leap ahead ?

I meant the new upgradations. The Weapon is currently undergoing test in Mhow.

 

[IndiaRising]

lol, it doesn't matter. at the last minute, army generals will introduce some new requirement and wholeheartedly reject the gun. videshi maal ka nasha utar ta nahi

 

[Kay]

Kay which Indian gun outperformed which competitor can you pls be specific? Did u read in between the lines in post? I never mentioned i was concerned with the looks of the AR But my concern was the the design. And pls dont mention Siachen and Thar desert other countries too have such varied terrain and they too are utilising they weapons effectively.

I was referring to the recent army tender where none of the foreign rifles could make the cut.
I see the Americans using American rifles, the Chinese using Chinese rifles, Russian, British and French all using indegeneous rifles - all of those rifles had problems which got gradually rectified. So, anybody saying indegeneous rifles are not important clearly have vested interests. But they keep saying things like - Indian soldiers deserve the best, matter of life and death, etc.

 

[hammer head]

Just curious...

why is there an assumption that all 556 will be converted to 762?
could it be that 20-30% of a section or a platoon will carry 762 (+ LMG)and the rest 556 ?

is this scenario possible?

No buddy its not. A sec of Indian army has been armed as per a plan.
1. Integral Firepower
2. Weight Distribution
3. Mobility
4. And ammunition res which is distributed within the sec.

For all above points to be effective thier is a fuced requirement of standard issue wpns. 3 boys getting 5.56, 06x getting 7.62 snd the msn carrying the RL getting a 9 mm pistol means three different kind of amn being carried. Which is not wanted.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indeed, But what i was curious regarding your mention of 'leap ahead in JV' ..

My understanding is the requirement is 7.62x51mm rifle with P-rails for various attachments, When looking at other rifles of same class of foreign origin, I see little difference ..

If there is something i missed, I would like to know ..

============

This is a INSAS 1B1 improved which we were issued during 2014-15, If they can produce this and its operational, Why would a successor of this weapon would lack in quality, And their is no reason they will produce a inferior quality weapon which is design to replace this ..

Dimension of photo : 2908 x 1134 ..

I meant the new upgradations. The Weapon is currently undergoing test in Mhow.

 

[hammer head]

I was referring to the recent army tender where none of the foreign rifles could make the cut.
I see the Americans using American rifles, the Chinese using Chinese rifles, Russian, British and French all using indegeneous rifles - all of those rifles had problems which got gradually rectified. So, anybody saying indegeneous rifles are not important clearly have vested interests. But they keep saying things like - Indian soldiers deserve the best, matter of life and death, etc.

I am all for a desi weapon but not at the cost of human life. We should accept our shortcomings and seek methods to over come them rather then shoving up the product which can be better made.

I have loved INSAS my entire life its accuracy In particular but i know what are its short comings and what needs to be done, after almost 18 yrs a new weapon is to be chosen for a soldier which will be uitilised by him for next 20 yrs and for that i need to ruthless in its selection it does not matter to the user during a firefight what weapon is firing desi or videshi the only thing which matters is that it should not fail him when needed.

 

[Kay]

@hammer head
Ergonomic improvements to existing designs can be done incrementally after receiving feedback from the army. Insas has a long stroke gas operating rotating bolt system similar to AK for high reliability.
What is of concern is the Indian army calling for international tenders at the drop of a hat. I don't see this happening with any other major power in the world. Something is rotten here.

 

[Shaitan]

Ghatak

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[hammer head]

@hammer head
Ergonomic improvements to existing designs can be done incrementally after receiving feedback from the army. Insas has a long stroke gas operating rotating bolt system similar to AK for high reliability.
What is of concern is the Indian army calling for international tenders at the drop of a hat. I don't see this happening with any other major power in the world. Something is rotten here.

Rot exists but every move should not be seen on the same line. Army wants to now graduate ti 7.62. All Indian designs have come along with long piston assemblies including the aforementioned Rifle undergoing trial, Ling piston assemblys are trusted and reliable but when it comes to 7.62 mm it makes the wpn bloody heavy the Army is aware about it and thus want some other vendors to offer a solution to the problem which can be evaluated in form of a SHORT STROKE PISTON assembly. SSP based wpns have the same reliablity with less recoil and weight.
Thats the main reason why other vendors have been invited. @Kunal Biswas all INSAS variants including the upgrades utilise the services of a long piston which is ok for a 5.56 considering the weight but ITS NOT OK for a 7.62.

Other simple requirements:
1. Should be ambidextrous
2. Adjustable butt stock strong and sterdy
3. Interchangeable free floating cold hammer MIL SPEC barrels with chrome bores
4. Reciever integrated MIL STD 1913 optical rails
5. Min 3 assesory rails for other attachements

 

[sbm]

Is there a 7.62 NATO version of the Tavor now?