INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Kay

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Would a IWI/Punj Lloyd be less of a "Make in India" product? Is the K-9 Vajra more of a "Make in India" product than the T-72 or T-90? I'm all for Indian designs but have to ask, does it have to be in every single aspect when OFB is not up to the task in its present form? Should a Govt entity have a monopoly on rifle manufacture?
Indegeneous weapon system means the ability of the country to manufacture the same locally - the manufacturer need not be a government entity. The goal is to make the process insulated from technology denials, sanctions and outside pressures. This is a practical requirement for maintaining sovereignty, not an emotional one.
 

sbm

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Kay, there are ways to do that. Spares stocks, contracts allowing local partners to take over progressively. All of that can be done. You are not wrong. But I bet if no imports were available, the OFB rifle would have been accepted.
 

sbm

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Kunal, what's your take on all this? A complete OFB flop rifle or a fixable rifle or army hell bent on imports? If the latter, cut the garbage and consider the Tavor in 7.62 NATO or Galil ACE. Not that they are fantastic but Punj Lloyd is established with IWI already.
 

Vayuputra

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Its okay recoil for 7.62*51 , after firing for several days one get used to take recoil and doesnt feel anything. Between , I would want army to reject this gun, useless product
 

deejai

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Looks fine to me, similar to most 7.62x51 rifles. Can't judge how a rifle feels based on a short video and without firing it yourself. Everyone feels recoil differently based on the weight of the shooter, how the rifle is held, and the skill level of the shooter. People who shoot mostly 5.56 or 7.62x39 often complain because they're used to soft shooting rifles and are unaccustomed to the noise and push of the larger 7.62x51.
 
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pmaitra

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Your second one,

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Thanks for finding this.

So, this shoots a .416 Rigby round. This is essentially 0.416 inches in diameter or in metric, this would be 10.6×74mm. Compare this with 7.62×51mm. The recoil of the latter would be significantly less, other things being equal, i.e..

Other things also come into play, but let's see how the discussion on recoil progresses. :)
 

mayfair

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We need to get Indian private sector involved in designing and manufacturing service arms for your forces. If OFB is not upto the task, shove them aside and engage people who can.
 

SanjeevM

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Exactly. You know this weapon in and out and you know its pluses and minuses. How long would it have taken to come to terms with all of this? A few years at least, perhaps?

Don't you think it would be great if you folks in the army can sit down with folks at OFB and discuss these at length on how to iteratively improve INSAS by getting rid of the shortcomings, while retaining what makes INSAS so good. All of it being in house in the country means that once the solutions are identified, the guns can be quickly upgraded and recycled into the armoury.

Now suppose IA goes in for a wholly new gun and it passes a few trials, but once you start using them in various ops, in various terrains, the gun will start revealing itself i.e. you'll come to understand how the gun performs under various scenarios, in various climes and environs.

Now if there are glitches, you'll have to run to an overseas manufacturer, who may or may not be as receptive to your suggestions. Even if they are, their "experts" will have to fly down to India, sit with officials, not down the kinks, take them to their R&D team, which will most likely be based in their home country. The R&D team will look at your list, maybe start working on some of them, then provide you with hopefully a new improved product, which will need to be tested again to see if the glitches are gone. And the cycle repeats again.

Even assuming that the R&D team based overseas addresses all your concerns, then how long before the solution can be implemented en masse and each and every gun that was issued can be upgraded to the same standards by the local "assembly" unit?

How many years do you think this will take?

With INSAS you have already amassed huge user data. Army and OFB can use this wealth of information to improve and enhance the rifle and develop new generation derivatives.
Very well said. I completely agree. Let indigenous gun come. It can be modified as the time passes based on feedback from users. If needed for forward posts and patrols, modern ones can be purchased on shelf 10-20k. During war, we cannot run for foreign guns due to $$ crunch. While war is a couple of years away, let's setup defence echo system. Hand over Ordinance factory making guns to private partners. Once it is with private sector, there will be competition, quality, accountability.

There should be regular meeting between top army brass and finance ministry and lessons on economics should be delivered. Army brass should be showed pictures of farmers committing suicide. This is tax payers valuable money, they can spend by sending it abroad for boasting the foreign mall or fuel economic growth by pumping that money within Indian economy that will have rippled effect and that money spent by army for buying indian guns will be paid to Indians companies who in turn will pay for salaries and raw materials and subcontinent components to other companies. Salaries paid will enable many families to buy household items and in turn keep those industries running. Every one rupee spent within India has impact of generating business of 100 rupees as that one rupee exchanged multiple hands. Every $$ paid outside india simply wipe that money off from Indians.

Army is consisting of warriors of valor. Let them also become warriors of economic growth.
 

pmaitra

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Why on earth did we switch from 7.62 to 5.56? Why are we trying to switch back from 5.56 to 7.62?

I would like to bring those army people in favour of 7.62 and those in favour of 5.56 on a stage and have an open debate, like we have during the US Presidential Primaries and Elections.

Coming to the idea of yet another calibre between these two floating around, I am really apprehensive. It could end up being a jack of all trades, master of none. There is no one size fits all solution. Think of the F-35 debacle.
 

pmaitra

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Looks like the guy in the gray suit was eager to take the magazine and the rifle back from the DG. :)
 

deejai

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Just to make things more clear, people who operate it have no problems if this rifle is manufactured by Private co, which can assure better quality ..

Its the design which works and that what matters, The manufacturing quality was the issue which actually got this nice rifle a lot of bad name, But since then quality has improved and this cannot be denied ..
Reminds me of the myth of the unreliable M16. Even though the problems it had in Vietnam were quickly solved, we still hear about it half a century later. Literally millions of US troops have used the M16 or M4 in the past 60 years without problems but the unreliability myth never seems to die.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Its better than SLR ( short stroke piston ) which used to be in service, Honesty the recoil seems same as an AK when fire from hip in semi-auto ..

I think its gud for a solider of IA to have a INSAS based weapon, This is something we are familiar with and training and other drills will be same, Private co is not magic wand and they only bring foreign rifles with their name tag on it, This require no R&D and the weapon does not guarantee to work here without modifications which are not just its mechanism but also metallurgy ..

==============

400ms for Indian 5.56mm ..

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Here look at the recoil. Remind of elephant gun kick.
Kunal, what's your take on all this? A complete OFB flop rifle or a fixable rifle or army hell bent on imports? If the latter, cut the garbage and consider the Tavor in 7.62 NATO or Galil ACE. Not that they are fantastic but Punj Lloyd is established with IWI already.
Considering that the rifle is being shot from the hip, the recoil doesn't seem that bad to me.
OFB is the white elephant of our country which after 20 yrs of giving this country INSAS today has again fooled us all by presenting a rechambered INSAS. I will post the video of the weapons trial and you will see how much recoil it is throwing on its user. Mind you the Army heavily uses Aks in jnk.

OFB should be dissolved and heads should roll for sheer incompetence. @Heavenshaker could have not summed it up better in his posts.

I see that the moment a desi product is rejected all lot of us have a tendency to jump the gun snd bleed out CORRUPTION HAIN JI not realizing the futuristic requirements. Give 6 months to a any desi company they will provide you a product 100 times better then the crap OFB given. 20 years of such extensive usage of a particular family of AR and data associated with you should have motivated you to make the best.
Also can you tell me upto what distance Indian 5.56mm steel core round can defeat BPJs?.
 

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