INSAS Indian Small Arms System

[Bhadra]

Ok fine, if you think so, so be it.

I have noticed your posts in this thread, and all I can say is that most of the things you post is trash.

If I say I have not seen the 'ass' of 9mm Luger, will you calm down?

Idiot , then why do not you ban me, if you have the right to do so.
I have nothing so say about your posts which are rabbid communal and communist verging on to Naxalism.

 

[pmaitra]

Bhadra ji,

All the time you are shouting, complaining about DRDO, OFB , IRDE etc, Only just shouting, Is that it, You ask something you are given answer, But you ignore that and start another again told abt that you move on and on with your same bashing..

Kunal,

The only thing he does is bashing, nothing else.

What credibility does a person have, who cannot even spell properly?

Bhadra,

It is OFB not OFV. Also, it is DRDO, no DODO.

 

[Bhadra]

Bhadra ji,

All the time you are shouting, complaining about DRDO, OFB , IRDE etc, Only just shouting, Is that it, You ask something you are given answer, But you ignore that and start another again told abt that you move on and on with your same bashing..

Kunal Ji..... sorry if it hurts you but to my mind DODOs need to wake up and be responsible...

 

[pmaitra]

Idiot , then why do not you ban me, if you have the right to do so.
I have nothing so say about your posts which are rabbid communal and communist verging on to Naxalism.

No, you are too much of a comedy to ban you. Sorry about that.

You have every freedom to comment on my posts, as well as not comment on my post. Please don't stop posting your ridiculous arguments - lest we are denied our fair share of humour.

 

[Bhadra]

Kunal,

The only thing he does is bashing, nothing else.

What credibility does a person have, who cannot even spell properly?

Bhadra,

It is OFB not OFV. Also, it is DRDO, no DODO.

I wish it was DRDO...

They are DODos same as the picture you thought was good for that name...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The three round burst was however IA mistake in GSQR. Now IA says it was mistake so accept the damn thing rather than subbing INSAS up theirs..

You told that you are close to Insas, The three round need raised from IPKF in Srilanka operations..

 

[Bhadra]

You told that you are close to Insas, The three round need raised from IPKF in Srilanka operations..

yes very much. It was an experience of IPKF in Sri Lanka that said that for CQB encounters, single shot was very inadequate. One needed auto fire like carbine. Since the US study on Small Arms was new at that time and they were propagating three round burst, Indian Army proposed three round burst.
I had myself changed SLR for auto firing. IA was using it though highly inaccurate with that kind of force.

I am squireling blaming IA for that. But now this concept is a failure why not damn make amends.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

yes very much. It was an experience of IPKF in Sri Lanka that said that for CQB encounters, single shot was very inadequate. One needed auto fire like carbine. Since the US study on Small Arms was new at that time and they were propagating three round burst, Indian Army proposed three round burst.
I had myself changed SLR for auto firing. IA was using it though highly inaccurate with that kind of force.

I am squireling blaming IA for that. But now this concept is a failure why not damn make amends.

During IPKF ops, Many used AK & auto SLR ( Stupid Long Rifle ) there the problem in firefights it ran out of ammo quickly in auto mode ( 4 round burst than 5 round and so on ) that is why 3 round burst was optimized ( Even in full auto no one empty mag in just one burst ) even if anyone opens up with full auto and fire 30rnd in one burst his barrel will be red hot and can jam..

 

[sayareakd]

no point in full auto and firing all ammo in mag. on one target.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This is Excalibur Insas, 3-6 month after when Insas 1B was out:

1. Its full auto
2. 30rnd Mag
3. Lighter than Insas 1B
4. Less moving parts
5. Less longer

This was OFB original work..

Wasn't issued to regulars even now..

 

[pmaitra]

I had a discussion with ScaleyBack (former British Army) on the FN-FALs with full auto.

Scalieback

Originally Posted by pmaitra
Good decision to not have full-auto. The Argentinians had full-auto. We know who did better.

Full auto is a 'nice to have' but on a rifle firing 7.62 x 51, it's useful in a few circumstances. It's the reason why you have support weapons (of the time such as gpmg). Argies still want the islands though

Archive: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/3796-assault-rifle-84-print.html

 

[Bhadra]

During IPKF ops, Many used AK & auto SLR ( Stupid Long Rifle ) there the problem in firefights it ran out of ammo quickly in auto mode ( 4 round burst than 5 round and so on ) that is why 3 round burst was optimized ( Even in full auto no one empty mag in just one burst ) even if anyone opens up with full auto and fire 30rnd in one burst his barrel will be red hot and can jam..

Kunal,

As per my knowing, it was not that reason. The reason was a study which NATO and US had conducted on futuristics SA system. They had conducted it keeping many factors in view. One of that was increasing the ammo capacity of soldiers and at the same time keeping logistics in check and reducing burdon of the soldier.
NATO 7.62 was all contrary to it so they went in for search of a new calibre. They hit upon 5.56 and Russiain (then USSR) settled 4. 48 or 4.45 or so.
It was also considered that killing was not as important as wounding as that increases the burden of enemy.
All environments and parameters considered were conventional warfare related.

Unfortunately all war fought after that were LICO or CI operations where requirement is totally different.

That is why a multi clibre weapon system has been proposed.

And by the way, for India infantry there was no AK-47 in Sri Lanka. Even LTTE was fighting with M series and G series and less with AK series.

 

[pmaitra]

Putting together comments from various persons, why is a full auto as a standard infantry weapon a bad idea?

1. Quickly runs out of ammunition.
2. Difficult to aim and wastes bullets.
3. Barrel overheats and jams.

Some facts:

• US Army initially issued full-automatics to their Vietnam War soldiers. They soon learnt it was a useless idea. They switched to semi-automatic and 3-burst modes.
• In the Falklands War, semi-automatics outperformed full-automatics.
• Nepalese Army were given INSAS by India. Many of these were full-automatics, as opposed to the semi-automatics issued to IA. It is alleged that those full-automatics jammed on many occasions and caused the RNA to perform poorly against Maoists.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal,

As per my knowing, it was not that reason. The reason was a study which NATO and US had conducted on futuristics SA system. They had conducted it keeping many factors in view. One of that was increasing the ammo capacity of soldiers and at the same time keeping logistics in check and reducing burdon of the soldier.NATO 7.62 was all contrary to it so they went in for search of a new calibre. They hit upon 5.56 and Russiain (then USSR) settled 4. 48 or 4.45 or so.It was also considered that killing was not as important as wounding as that increases the burden of enemy.All environments and parameters considered were conventional warfare related.Unfortunately all war fought after that were LICO or CI operations where requirement is totally different.That is why a multi clibre weapon system has been proposed.And by the way, for India infantry there was no AK-47 in Sri Lanka. Even LTTE was fighting with M series and G series and less with AK series.

The other reason was more popular coz it involve US & M-16, Yes the rest of the whole concept was imported..

IA infantrymen used AK so does in SF..

 

[balai_c]

Kunal,

The only thing he does is bashing, nothing else.

What credibility does a person have, who cannot even spell properly?

Bhadra,

It is OFB not OFV. Also, it is DRDO, no DODO.

Pmaitra, Bhadra is basically calling DRDO DODO. This DODO slur is not a new one, I have seen this on comments section of LIVEFIST blog of Shiv Aroor. Many pakistanis and self-loathing Indians , always whining and moaning about the apparent incompetence of DRDO have come up with this new word.

 

[sayareakd]

well in our country people dont do any work and spend their time cursing those who do work.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We have enough basing here, lets talk about something qualitative..

 

[Twinblade]

Thank You. If that is what is achieved at hundred yards what will be the spread at 400 yards / meters.
My point is that the fire of 7.62 bullets at controlled burst at 500 yards is much better due to various reason.
Secondly an assault rifle should be able to hit accurately at 300 yards. A soldier needs to fire auto or in burst mode in CQB role only wherein fully auto fire like that of AK is much ,more effective and devastating.
Thus this NATO philosophy of three round burst fire, if at all, and is not very successful.
INSAS is hell bound to conventional ops and only conventional operations. It is failure for CI / CT operations.

So you think that 7.63x39 ammo will hit a human chest cavity (roughly 16 inch x 16 inch area) in burst mode at 400 meters with multiple rounds? Are you sure that AKM ammo will fly to that range with any useful penetrative power, much less hit anything smaller than a small building ? Any decent rifle (other than spray and pray AKMs) is able to hit a human torso at 300-400 meters when fired from the prone position. As per the US/Nato marksmanship handbook:
http://www.usanato.army.mil/BDE/Content/Safety_Publications/FM3-22-9.pdf

EFFECTIVENESS AND CONTROL OF AUTOMATIC OR BURST FIRE
7-32. Automatic or burst fire is inherently less accurate than semiautomatic fire. The first fully automatic
shot fired may be on target, but recoil and a high cyclic rate of fire often combine to place subsequent
rounds far from the desired point of impact. Even controlled (three-round burst) automatic or burst fire may
place only one round on the target. Because of these inaccuracies, it is difficult to evaluate the effectiveness
of automatic or burst fire, and even more difficult to establish absolute guidelines for its use

The recommended conditions for usage of burst fire mode are as follows:-

Automatic or Burst Fire
7-36. In some combat situations, the use of automatic or burst fire can improve survivability and enhance
mission accomplishment. Clearing buildings, final assaults, FPF, and ambushes may require limited use of
automatic or burst fire.
7-37. Depending on the tactical situation, Soldiers should employ automatic or burst fire in the following
conditions:
z Ammunition is readily available, and there are no problems with resupply.
z Closely spaced multiple targets are located 50 meters away or less.
z Maximum fire is immediately required at an area target.
z Tracers or some other means can be used to observe the effect of bullets on the target.
z Leaders can maintain adequate control over weapons firing in the automatic fire mode.
z Good artificial support is available.
z The initial sound of gunfire disperses closely spaced enemy targets.

As for the effectiveness of burst fire mode:

EFFECTIVENESS AND CONTROL OF RAPID SEMIAUTOMATIC FIRE
7-13. With proper training, Soldiers can select the appropriate mode of fire: semiautomatic fire, rapid
semiautomatic fire, or automatic/burst fire.
NOTE: Leaders must ensure that Soldiers apply proper fire discipline at all times. Even in
training, unaimed fire must never be tolerated, especially unaimed automatic fire.
7-14. While Soldiers sacrifice some degree of accuracy to deliver a greater volume of fire, it is surprising
how devastatingly accurate rapid semiautomatic fire can be. At ranges beyond 25 meters, rapid
semiautomatic fire is superior to automatic fire in all measures: shots per target, trigger pulls per hit, and
time to hit. Proper training and repeated practice increases the degree of accuracy.
7-15. Rapid application of the four fundamentals will result in a well-aimed shot every one or two seconds.
This technique of fire allows a unit to place the most effective volume of fire in a target area while
conserving ammunition. It is the most accurate means of delivering suppressive fire.

EFFECTIVENESS AND CONTROL OF QUICK FIRE
7-70. Quick fire techniques are appropriate when Soldiers are presented with close, suddenly appearing,
surprise enemy targets; or when close engagement is imminent.
NOTE: Fire may be delivered in the SEMIAUTO or AUTOMATIC/BURST fire mode. For
example, a point man in a patrol may carry the weapon on AUTOMATIC/BURST. This may
also be required when clearing a room or bunker. Initial training should be in the SAFE mode.
7-71. Two techniques of delivering quick fire are:
z Aimed.
z Pointed.
7-72. The difference in the speed of delivery of these two techniques is small. Pointed quick fire can be
used to fire a shot about one-tenth of a second faster than aimed quick fire. The difference in accuracy,
however, is more pronounced:
z A Soldier well-trained in pointed quick fire can hit an E-type silhouette target at 15 meters,
although the shot may strike anywhere on the target.
z A Soldier well-trained in aimed quick fire can hit an E-type silhouette target at 25 meters, with
the shot or burst striking 5 inches from the center of mass.
7-73. This variance of target hit for this type of engagement reinforces the need for well-aimed shots.

20 seconds of google-fu would have saved you this embarrassment, and you think with the recoil of 7.62x39 ammunition, accurate automatic fire can be delivered at 400 meters in burst mode from an assault rifle?

@pmitra

sorry do not mind
yours is simply theory and nonsensical theory at many places... you have never fired an LMG or MMG.
You have no practical experiences nor is your theory correct. Like "5.56mm rounds have the tumble effect on entering flesh ". BS and simple BS. How can higher MV rounds tumble inside flesh. You think it is a LV 9mm.

Whether Kunal is right or not. And I am wrong or not. That is no the issue but Kunal can be right as also wrong because of ... whatever.
What is right is right and there can not be two rights.

The idea is to share ideas in the forum and not be offensively argumentative on false grounds like you.

Lump it to your prejudices.

I have been associated with INSAS for a very very long time. I am giving you just a tip of iceberg.

Oh really, so you have been associated for Insas for long and yet have no idea of burst mode spread ? Also have you even undergone basic weapons training at NCC, much less owning a PB weapon, much less operating it as a part of LE ? Also are we talking assault rifles or proper machine guns ? Also about the tumbling action of bullet inside tissue:
How a high-speed bullet damages an organ

"High-velocity missile wounds of the head are especially destructive because of formation of a temporary cavity within the cranial cavity. the brain is enclosed by the skull, a closed rigid structure that can relieve pressure only by "bursting." Thus, high-velocity missile wounds of the head tend to produce bursting injuries. That these bursting injuries are the result of temporary cavity formation can be demonstrated by shooting through empty skulls. A high-velocity bullet fired through an empty skull produces small entrance and exit holes with no fractures. The same missile fired through a skull containing brain causes extensive fracturing and bursting injuries.
"¼ Although the gyroscopic spin of the bullet along its axis is sufficient to stabilize the bullet in air, this spin is insufficient to stabilize the bullet when it enters the denser medium of tissue. Thus, as soon s the bullet enters to body, it will begin to wobble. As the bullet begins to wobble, its cross-sectional area becomes larger, the drag force increases, and more kinetic energy is lost. If the path through the tissue is long enough, the wobbling will increase to such a degree that the bullet will be completely unstable and will tumble end-over-end through the tissue."

.

Stop haranguing like a typical commie which you are. and do not throw names like Lugar etc. You would not have seen an ass of it.

Be polite. Its a basic human virtue.

Ok fine, if you think so, so be it.

I have noticed your posts in this thread, and all I can say is that most of the things you post is trash.

If I say I have not seen the 'ass' of 9mm Luger, will you calm down?

He won't.

Idiot , then why do not you ban me, if you have the right to do so.
I have nothing so say about your posts which are rabbid communal and communist verging on to Naxalism.

Please don't ban him, I haven't even started to have fun with him.

Use flechettes then... the bullets that splits into two or three..

flechettes, assault rifles, nuff said. Bring on the Darwin Award !!

Saya...

.. showing UN mission photos of much later years as IPKF ... !! No Indian Army unit has light blue cap or pugree except for UN missions.

Though I can see general Kalkat all right ... morphed... on bottom corner

Yeah right, morphed.

you wish to be the last word ..

.. and a much polite one.

Dear Bhadra, since you are so fond of prose, here's one for you:-

Soordas kavi keh gaye, jag me bhanti bhanti ke log,
Soordas kavi keh gaye, jag me bhanti bhanti ke log;
Kachu to bhadra svubhav ke, bahure [edited].

( Translation: In the words of poet soordas, there are several types of people out there, a few of them are bhadra (cultured, humble, polite), rest of them are annoying [edited])

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Insas Excalibur..

Long back it was issued to Elite Regulars of IA and PARA-SF for field trails..

 

[pmaitra]

All posts about weapons used by IPKF have been moved here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...nfantry-weapons-indian-forces.html#post536813