INSAS Indian Small Arms System

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Kunal Biswas

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The best one consider is a bullpup configuration of a traditional rifle, Fire selection should be single, Burst and full auto..

5.56mm lack punching effect or stopping power, New generation bullets like 6.8mm & 6.5mm are effective in this regard..
 

sayareakd

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You can see 3 round bust.
 
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Bhadra

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This is also burst firing but there is vast difference between the effects of the two:
 
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Kunal Biswas

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You can see 3 round bust.
Sayareakd Sir,

This can be change with setting on gas regulator, there are times Insas three round burst is so fast that if anyone was not giving full attention to the sound, three round fire sound like semi auto fire..
 
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ALBY

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Thank You. If that is what is achieved at hundred yards what will be the spread at 400 yards / meters.
My point is that the fire of 7.62 bullets at controlled burst at 500 yards is much better due to various reason.
Secondly an assault rifle should be able to hit accurately at 300 yards. A soldier needs to fire auto or in burst mode in CQB role only wherein fully auto fire like that of AK is much ,more effective and devastating.
Thus this NATO philosophy of three round burst fire, if at all, and is not very successful.
INSAS is hell bound to conventional ops and only conventional operations. It is failure for CI / CT operations.
Is the accurate firing @ 300mts practically possible even at semi auto?am not asking about the range but about the accurate hitting coz at that distance small caliber bullets especially 5.56 NATO are prone to wind etc and there heavy chances of getting deflected.plus most of the battles and CT ops are haPpening at a range less than 200m.and most occur
at less than 100 mts.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Is the accurate firing @ 300mts practically possible even at semi auto?am not asking about the range but about the accurate hitting coz at that distance small caliber bullets especially 5.56 NATO are prone to wind etc and there heavy chances of getting deflected.
They are accurate to bulls eye to even 600meters..
 

Bhadra

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Is the accurate firing @ 300mts practically possible even at semi auto?am not asking about the range but about the accurate hitting coz at that distance small caliber bullets especially 5.56 NATO are prone to wind etc and there heavy chances of getting deflected.plus most of the battles and CT ops are haPpening at a range less than 200m.and most occur
at less than 100 mts.
At about 500 meters, accuracy of all rounds of all calibre is supposed to be good. 7.62 is heavier round and has kess muzzle velocity than 5.56. Therefore 5.56 is more accurate. There is effect of wind but only when it is a little strong but that soldiers are taught to adjust to it. In engaging a target there is something called acquisition and identification and capbility at aimiming of target. For a man size target, the largest acquisition and aiming range is 500 meters (walking man).

Any small arms gun like MMG which fires at greater ranges than that is area weapon. It sweeps the area rather than aim at a man.

Any weapon which is very good up to 300 / 400 is personal rifle or personal weapon. That happens to be a good range for identification and aimimg for a lighter weapon, lighter than squad or area weapon.

Any weapons capable of accuracy and rapid volume of fire upto 500 / 600 m is a squad weapon and can be used in auto or single shot modes.
Accuracy (ability to put the round at point of aim) depends on many factors and muzzle velocity, size and shape of the bullets (effecting yaw and pitch of the aerodynamics of the ballistics) vibrations, stability of hold, and propellant variations/ characteristics.

Personal weapon or rifle of the soldiers must also be able to fire in a CQB role at 50 meters (accuracy in automatic fire) with a very heavy volume of fire which INSAS is not capable of.

INSAS has bad wound ballistics. 7.62 causes larger and fatal wounds. A soldier may get hit by 5.56 calibre at 500 meters and still walk up to 50 meters near to you to fight another battle.

Kunal is unnecessarily defending 5.56 where the darling of US forces in afstan and Indian forces is AK- 47 for a personal weapon good at 300 as also at 50 meters. Kills or incapacitates a man.

In CI operations wounding a terrorist is no use .Since he is back to the wall, you got to kill him or he will kill you. They come for Shahadat and they must be instantly consigned to their wishes.
 
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pmaitra

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At about 500 meters, accuracy of all rounds of all calibre is supposed to be good. 7.62 is heavier round and has kess muzzle velocity than 5.56. Therefore 5.56 is more accurate. There is effect of wind but only when it is a little strong but that soldiers are taught to adjust to it. In engaging a target there is something called acquisition and identification and capbility at aimiming of target. For a man size target, the largest acquisition and aiming range is 500 meters (walking man).

Any small arms gun like MMG which fires at greater ranges than that is area weapon. It sweeps the area rather than aim at a man.

Any weapon which is very good up to 300 / 400 is personal rifle or personal weapon. That happens to be a good range for identification and aimimg for a lighter weapon, lighter than squad or area weapon.
So far so good.

Any weapons capable of accuracy and rapid volume of fire upto 500 / 600 m is a squad weapon and can be used in auto or single shot modes.
In auto mode, at a distance of >500m is going to be a waste of bullets. It can be used if a column of soldiers are charging your way. Then you can hope that some of them will be taken out. Otherwise, full auto is useless.

Accuracy (ability to put the round at point of aim) depends on many factors and muzzle velocity, size and shape of the bullets (effecting yaw and pitch of the aerodynamics of the ballistics) vibrations, stability of hold, and propellant variations/ characteristics.
Stability of hold does not matter in automatic mode. It happens in movies, but not in real life. People who think that automatics are better than semi-automatics as the standard infantry weapon, are completely deluded.

Personal weapon or rifle of the soldiers must also be able to fire in a CQB role at 50 meters (accuracy in automatic fire) with a very heavy volume of fire which INSAS is not capable of.
Again, carrying over fro the previous point, I will cite an example.

Example: UK-Argentina Falklands War. The Argentinians used automatic FN-FALs while the British used semi-automatic FN-FALs. Guess who performed better? Fully automatic for powerful rounds is a silly and impractical idea, but then, when such people make crucial decision, the results show.

INSAS has bad wound ballistics. 7.62 causes larger and fatal wounds. A soldier may get hit by 5.56 calibre at 500 meters and still walk up to 50 meters near to you to fight another battle.
COIN and conventional war are different things. 5.56mm INSAS rounds are more powerful than their counterparts used in US M16. Typically, 5.56mm rounds have the tumble effect on entering flesh and on shot in the torso is good enough to take the target down. This does not happen in case of 7.62mm rounds (not talking about PK, SVD, Lee-Enfield).

After the US started using 5.56mm rounds, the USSR researched it and they came up with the 5.45mm Soviet rounds, for the same reason. These rounds were so effective in the Soviet-Mujahideen War, that they were termed 'poison bullet' by the Mujahideen. Although they never really carried any poison, but were extremely lethal.

Kunal is unnecessarily defending 5.56 where the darling of US forces in afstan and Indian forces is AK- 47 for a personal weapon good at 300 as also at 50 meters. Kills or incapacitates a man.
Kunal is correct. He knows what he is talking about.

In CI operations wounding a terrorist is no use .Since he is back to the wall, you got to kill him or he will kill you. They come for Shahadat and they must be instantly consigned to their wishes.
True, and that is why fully automatics are in use in greater % with COIN units than with regular infantry divisions. It was a common argument that a smaller round injures the enemy. True in long distances, but in close distances, upto 100 ft, the tumble effect is so severe, one 5.56 bullet simply kills the enemy. To tackle close quarter battles, AKM is good for spraying on the enemy. One bullet is good enough to completely disable the enemy. Even in longer distances, the bullet carries enough power to stop the enemy, but then, accuracy can take a hit.
 

Bhadra

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@pmitra

sorry do not mind
yours is simply theory and nonsensical theory at many places... you have never fired an LMG or MMG.
You have no practical experiences nor is your theory correct. Like "5.56mm rounds have the tumble effect on entering flesh ". BS and simple BS. How can higher MV rounds tumble inside flesh. You think it is a LV 9mm.

Whether Kunal is right or not. And I am wrong or not. That is no the issue but Kunal can be right as also wrong because of ... whatever.
What is right is right and there can not be two rights.

The idea is to share ideas in the forum and not be offensively argumentative on false grounds like you.

Lump it to your prejudices.

I have been associated with INSAS for a very very long time. I am giving you just a tip of iceberg.
 
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mattster

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Guys.....I just have to ask this question ??.
Just look at the finish and machining quality of the pics that Kunal has posted



Why is it that every single time you see an DRDO prototype from the small arms division - it looks like it was fabricated in some "Mom and Pop" back-alley workshop with workers who never finished high-school.

Do these guys even know what a CNC machine is. Do they even use CAD tools like ProE, etc in designing prototypes, or are they just made hand-made by a local workshop with hand-drawn design documentation where the employees are walking around bare-footed.

I would think that you could go to deepest depths of some African countries, and fabricate more professional looking parts.

PS: It probably also explains why the Insas rifle looks like a poor quality toy gun.
 
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pmaitra

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@pmitra

sorry do not mind
yours is simply theory and nonsensical theory at many places... you have never fired an LMG or MMG.
You have no practical experiences nor is your theory correct. Like "5.56mm rounds have the tumble effect on entering flesh ". BS and simple BS. How can higher MV rounds tumble inside flesh. You think it LV 9mm.

Whether Kunal is right or not. That is no issue but Kunal can not be right because of ... whatever.
What is right is right and there can not be two rights.

The idea is to share ideas in the forum and not be offensively argumentative on false grounds.

I have been associated with INSAS for a very very long time.
I do not mind at all if you want to continue to delude yourself in fairy tales. I also don't believe you have any experience that Kunal has. For all your tall tales about fully atomatic infantry rifles, I would strongly recommend you first try firing a 9mm Luger or equivalent rounds in fully automatic mode, standing; then come back and argue.

You have been associated with INSAS - well, good for you. Whether I'll buy that or not, is my prerogative.
 

Bhadra

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Because the damn thing is too huge and adds almost half a kg to soldiers weight. You DODOs wish the soldiers to fight at your terms and conditions where as the world over the scientists try and produce things that lessons soldiers difficulties. You produce things to keep your jobs and earn false sense of achievements.
 

Kunal Biswas

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B]Guys.....I just have to ask this question ??. Just look at the finish and machining quality of the pics that Kunal has posted[/B]

Why is it that every single time you see an DRDO prototype from the small arms division - it looks like it was fabricated in some "Mom and Pop" back-alley workshop with workers who never finished high-school



You should also read..

The Model is from 2008, Its made of steel for ruggedness at that time, It works and good in Indian Environment..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And its not a DRDO is not from small arm division, OFB is..

Anyways..
 

Bhadra

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You have been associated with INSAS - well, good for you. Whether I'll buy that or not, is my prerogative.
Stop haranguing like a typical commie which you are. and do not throw names like Lugar etc. You would not have seen an ass of it.
 

Bhadra

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You should also read..

The Model is from 2008, Its made of steel for ruggedness at that time, It works and good in Indian Environment..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And its not a DRDO is not from small arm division, OFB is..

Anyways..


Kunal DODOs and OFV are same for Armed forces. One proposes and the other disposes = Ghatiya mal.
 

pmaitra

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Stop haranguing like a typical commie which you are. and do not throw names like Lugar etc. You would not have seen an ass of it.
Ok fine, if you think so, so be it.

I have noticed your posts in this thread, and all I can say is that most of the things you post is trash.

If I say I have not seen the 'ass' of 9mm Luger, will you calm down?
 

Bhadra

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The World have fought so many wars and conflicts. The infantry world over fights the world over with single shot and fully auto assault rifles. The US and NATO production series of single round and three round burst first have been thorough rejected the world over.

Her are some lunatics who do not even follow the trend.

The three round burst was however IA mistake in GSQR. Now IA says it was mistake so accept the damn thing rather than subbing INSAS up theirs..
 

Kunal Biswas

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Kunal DODOs and OFV are same for Armed forces. One proposes and the other disposes = Ghatiya mal.
Bhadra ji,

All the time you are shouting, complaining about DRDO, OFB , IRDE etc, Only just shouting, Is that it, You ask something you are given answer, But you ignore that and start another again told abt that you move on and on with your same bashing..
 

mattster

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You should also read..

The Model is from 2008, Its made of steel for ruggedness at that time, It works and good in Indian Environment..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And its not a DRDO is not from small arm division, OFB is..

Anyways..[/QUOTE]


You mean to say they are going to put something made out steel and which probably weighs twice as much as hardened aluminium alloy.

God help the brave Indian Jawan
 
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