INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[J20!]

As for range and endurance, Rafale should beat the F-35C every time when carrying mission loads because Rafale always carries tanks. F-35C should beat the Rafale when it comes to internal fuel (8.8 tonnes vs 4.7 tonnes).

In terms of being a mud mover at long range, F35 is unbeatable in the medium weight category. F35A(not the longer range C) can carry a weapons load of 6 2000lb guided bombs as well as 2 SRAAM's and 2 BVRAAM's anywhere within 500nm. Rafale cant touch that kind of performance even with EFT's.

And as a plus for the F35, even with this maximum external load, it'll still be stealthier than a fully loaded rafale enjoying longer range even without in-air-refueling.

 

[lookieloo]

When do you expect to see the AMCA in service. (squadron service)

I'll put delivery of first batch (IOC standard, of course) around 2015-16.

Power-point to IOC in ~2 years would blow my mind. Perhaps you were thinking of MRCA?

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Guys forget about F-35. It s out and away........

 

[Rahul Singh]

I'll put delivery of first batch (IOC standard, of course) around 2015-16.

Power-point to IOC in ~2 years would blow my mind. Perhaps you were thinking of MRCA?

Thinking MRCA writing AMCA my bad. Make it 2025-26

 

[lookieloo]

Thinking MRCA writing AMCA my bad. Make it 2025-26

That's... still pretty optimistic. Flying, land-based prototypes, yes. IOC CATOBAR version? I rather doubt it.

 

[p2prada]

In terms of being a mud mover at long range, F35 is unbeatable in the medium weight category. F35A(not the longer range C) can carry a weapons load of 6 2000lb guided bombs as well as 2 SRAAM's and 2 BVRAAM's anywhere within 500nm. Rafale cant touch that kind of performance even with EFT's.

And as a plus for the F35, even with this maximum external load, it'll still be stealthier than a fully loaded rafale enjoying longer range even without in-air-refueling.

F-35A/C are heavy aircraft.

Empty weight is around 13-14 tonnes vs 16 tonnes on Su-27 and SH. Loaded weight is 23 - 24 tonnes, similar to Su-27's 23-24 tonnes. MTOW is also very similar at around 31-33 tonnes. Fuel carries is also similar, 8 - 9 tonnes vs 10.5 tonnes on Su-27. SH figures come close too.

It is obvious it will have better range and endurance than a non-EFT equipped Rafale.

Rafale will do better with EFTs. The EFTs alone add 4.5 tonnes of fuel to Rafale's internal payload of 4.5 tonnes. So, more fuel vs F-35, less thrust vs F-35. but more drag vs F-35.

 

[p2prada]

Design stage for AMCA started last year. Don't know the exact month. It will continue for some more time before the final design is frozen. Then IAF will evaluate the design once again before the commencement of the engineering phase which will see the construction of two demonstrators and the follow up prototypes.

We can say the project started one year ago. According to ADA, the project will take 16 years from design stage to IOC, that is 7 years of design and construction of prototypes followed by 9 years of testing after first flight. So we can say the aircraft has 15 years left from today, that would mean IOC induction in 2028, with squadron induction in the 2029-30 period. First flight should be six years from today, that would be 2019-20.

There was official news from ADA saying that AMCA will see first flight around 2020. So, this fits with what I wrote above.

 

[p2prada]

That's... still pretty optimistic. Flying, land-based prototypes, yes. IOC CATOBAR version? I rather doubt it.

The Navy is yet to show proper interest in AMCA. Nothing much as of today.

 

[lookieloo]

The Navy is yet to show proper interest in AMCA. Nothing much as of today.

Come to think about it, I'm not sure if the baseline AMCA is getting much proper interest. HAL/IAF really have their hands full with three new fighters to introduce into service over the next few years (Tejas, Rafale, and FGFA).

 

[nrj]

Come to think about it, I'm not sure if the baseline AMCA is getting much proper interest. HAL/IAF really have their hands full with three new fighters to introduce into service over the next few years (Tejas, Rafale, and FGFA).

AMCA is of a strategic interest, so won't figure in plans over next 'few' years to introduce fighters whose technology will become obsolete before advanced fighter like AMCA come into service.

 

[Crusader53]

F-35A/C are heavy aircraft.

Empty weight is around 13-14 tonnes vs 16 tonnes on Su-27 and SH. Loaded weight is 23 - 24 tonnes, similar to Su-27's 23-24 tonnes. MTOW is also very similar at around 31-33 tonnes. Fuel carries is also similar, 8 - 9 tonnes vs 10.5 tonnes on Su-27. SH figures come close too.

It is obvious it will have better range and endurance than a non-EFT equipped Rafale.

Rafale will do better with EFTs. The EFTs alone add 4.5 tonnes of fuel to Rafale's internal payload of 4.5 tonnes. So, more fuel vs F-35, less thrust vs F-35. but more drag vs F-35.

CFT's are also being developed for the F-35. I don't recall how much then can hold off hand. Plus, I believe carrying them will have little impact on the aircrafts RCS.

 

[lookieloo]

CFT's are also being developed for the F-35. I don't recall how much then can hold off hand. Plus, I believe carrying them will have little impact on the aircrafts RCS.

Eh... Source?

 

[Crusader53]

Come to think about it, I'm not sure if the baseline AMCA is getting much proper interest. HAL/IAF really have their hands full with three new fighters to introduce into service over the next few years (Tejas, Rafale, and FGFA).

Well, the ACMA is so far off. Plus, India has a lot on its plate. (IAC, LCA, FGFA, etc. etc.) Beside its resources aren't limitless.

 

[Crusader53]

Eh... Source?

I remember reading it on F-16.net that Israel was under contract to develop and build CFT's for the F-35.

 

[Crusader53]

Here's one source.....

Israel to boost range of future F-35 fleet






Flight Global


By: Arie Egozi Washington DC


Source:







The Israeli air force wants to increase the operational range of its future fleet of 100 Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighters by adding new external fuel tanks that are already being developed by domestic companies.

Elbit Systems subsidiary Cyclone Aviation is offering to supply external tanks to be carried on the F-35's under-wing hardpoints, while Israel Aerospace Industries plans to produce conformal fuel tanks for the Israeli fighters.

Israel's air force recently completed the design of a unique F-35 version optimised for its mission requirements, but further details remain highly classified.

Under current plans, Israel will sign a letter of agreement in 2009 to advance a multi-year purchase of the F-35, which local sources say will be launched with an order for 25 aircraft for delivery from 2014, plus options on a further 25.

In a further bid to extend the range of its strike aircraft, Israel's Boeing 707 tanker-transports will be equipped with Honeywell-supplied glass cockpits incorporating new communications equipment, six multi-function displays and a global air traffic management system.

The work forms part of a wider modernisation effort, which will also see the type's IAI-produced refuelling boom replaced with the design used by the US Air Force's Boeing

 

[lookieloo]

Self delete. Too far off topic.

 

[J20!]

F-35A/C are heavy aircraft.

Empty weight is around 13-14 tonnes vs 16 tonnes on Su-27 and SH. Loaded weight is 23 - 24 tonnes, similar to Su-27's 23-24 tonnes. MTOW is also very similar at around 31-33 tonnes. Fuel carries is also similar, 8 - 9 tonnes vs 10.5 tonnes on Su-27. SH figures come close too.

It is obvious it will have better range and endurance than a non-EFT equipped Rafale.

Rafale will do better with EFTs. The EFTs alone add 4.5 tonnes of fuel to Rafale's internal payload of 4.5 tonnes. So, more fuel vs F-35, less thrust vs F-35. but more drag vs F-35.

My point being Prada, that even with 3 EFT's and 4.5 tonnes extra fuel, Rafale wouldn't be able to carry F35's payload of 6000kg's of JDAM's and 4 short and beyond visual range a2a missiles to the same range an F35 can. Rafale couldn't carry the extra 6000kg in addition to the initial 4500kg of fuel to begin with, not forgetting the AAM's.

F35 is the much better A2G platform by far, endurance, payload, stealth, range etc all taken into consideration.

 

[Crusader53]

My point being Prada, that even with 3 EFT's and 4.5 tonnes extra fuel, Rafale wouldn't be able to carry F35's payload of 6000kg's of JDAM's and 4 short and beyond visual range a2a missiles to the same range an F35 can. Rafale couldn't carry the extra 6000kg in addition to the initial 4500kg of fuel to begin with, not forgetting the AAM's.

F35 is the much better A2G platform by far, endurance, payload, stealth, range etc all taken into consideration.

Which, is why India should have skipped any 4.5 Generation Fighter in the first place. Yet, you are wasting your time trying to make your case here.........

 

[p2prada]

Come to think about it, I'm not sure if the baseline AMCA is getting much proper interest. HAL/IAF really have their hands full with three new fighters to introduce into service over the next few years (Tejas, Rafale, and FGFA).

The development agency is called ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency). HAL will make prototypes, but assembly line should be made well after 2028. By then Rafale and Tejas lines would close. So only FGFA and AMCA. However we will have a much larger economy by then. If we are thinking of three assembly lines in a decade, then imagine the kind of production we will be able to manage with 4 times that economy the next decade.

My point being Prada, that even with 3 EFT's and 4.5 tonnes extra fuel, Rafale wouldn't be able to carry F35's payload of 6000kg's of JDAM's and 4 short and beyond visual range a2a missiles to the same range an F35 can. Rafale couldn't carry the extra 6000kg in addition to the initial 4500kg of fuel to begin with, not forgetting the AAM's.

F35 is the much better A2G platform by far, endurance, payload, stealth, range etc all taken into consideration.

I think you are slightly overestimating the F-35.

Rafale's known capability would include 3 2000 L tanks that come to 4.5 tonnes. 4x 1000 Kg LGBs and 4 MICAs. Probably to 1800 Km and back.

As for the F-35,

It says 7000 Kg to 500NMI, that's 900 Km and back.

The F-35 has greater load carrying capacity with 500 Kg LGBs (6 vs 4), but the range is half that of Rafale.

With 1000 Kg LGBs, the F-35 and Rafale will have the same payload of 4 bombs and 4 air to air missiles.

Overall, Rafale still out ranges the F-35 significantly. F-35 will need both EFT and CFT to match Rafale's range. EFT is already being developed while we are yet to see CFTs.

 

[J20!]

The development agency is called ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency). HAL will make prototypes, but assembly line should be made well after 2028. By then Rafale and Tejas lines would close. So only FGFA and AMCA. However we will have a much larger economy by then. If we are thinking of three assembly lines in a decade, then imagine the kind of production we will be able to manage with 4 times that economy the next decade.



I think you are slightly overestimating the F-35.

Rafale's known capability would include 3 2000 L tanks that come to 4.5 tonnes. 4x 1000 Kg LGBs and 4 MICAs. Probably to 1800 Km and back.

As for the F-35,

It says 7000 Kg to 500NMI, that's 900 Km and back.

The F-35 has greater load carrying capacity with 500 Kg LGBs (6 vs 4), but the range is half that of Rafale.

With 1000 Kg LGBs, the F-35 and Rafale will have the same payload of 4 bombs and 4 air to air missiles.

Overall, Rafale still out ranges the F-35 significantly. F-35 will need both EFT and CFT to match Rafale's range. EFT is already being developed while we are yet to see CFTs.

Rafale can carry 9.5 tons of external munitions but half of that figure is taken up by fuel. That leaves only 5 tons for weapons carriage, but WHERE EXACTLY WILL RAFALE MOUNT 4 1000KG BOMBS IF 3 OF ITS 5 PYLONS RATED FOR 2000lb BOMBS ARE TAKEN UP BY 2000L EFT'S? Rafale, if carrying the 3 EFT's it needs to challenge F35's range, can only carry 2 1000kg boms Prada.

But that still falls short of F35's weapons delivery of 8100kg on 10 pylons(a 2000lb JDAM and an AMRAAM in each weapons bay, 2 JDAM's and a near wing tip AIM9X under each wing) over 1100km for the F53C on INTERNAL FUEL.

That's not an overstatement in any form, F35 was designed to haul this weapons load anywhere within 1000km, check if you doubt me.

Lockheed Martin · F-35C Carrier Variant

So however you put it, Rafale cant even carry 6000kg's of JDAM's over any significant distance anyway, because it'd have to sacrifice its EFT's to do so in the first place.

And you'll also notice that I haven't even mentioned the 480 gallon under-wing EFT's being developed for F35's inner wing pylons certified for carriage exceeding 5000lbs(2.26tons). That's an extra 3 tons of fuel.

So whether internal fuel only or internal fuel plus EFT's is considered, F35 will exceed Rafale in both range and munitions carrying capacity at range. Rafale doesn't even have enough 2000lb rated pylons to compete with F35 in the first place for payload carriage, 6 vs 5.