INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

lookieloo

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...of the MMRCA contendors, only Rafale has a marine version...
Name the contenders again? I believe there was another with 2 engines and even more load/range (if those are what's important to you); I think it even had wings that folded. Christ, I just can't seem to remember.........
 

p2prada

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So IN decided to have a relook. Rafale-M in its present form can operate from both SATOBAR & CATOBAR carriers.
Between Rafale and F-35, Rafale is a far better choice due to two engines more load and range.
I agree that we don't need the F-35B.

It would be neat if the Navy jumps into the Rafale bandwagon too. Would save the hassle of going through a new tender.

Name the contenders again? I believe there was another with 2 engines and even more load/range (if those are what's important to you); I think it even had wings that folded. Christ, I just can't seem to remember.........
Super Hornet has inferior performance. No competition with the Rafale. This was one of our Navy Admiral's viewpoint.
 

Decklander

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Name the contenders again? I believe there was another with 2 engines and even more load/range (if those are what's important to you); I think it even had wings that folded. Christ, I just can't seem to remember.........
which aircraft wud you choose between two if one is quick footed like a rabbit and other is a pregnant buffalo. Boeing in its own presentation had accepted that F-18SH needed new engines which were ready but needed funds for being certified and till than F-18 will suffer from range and maneuverability problems. Rafale does not need to fold its wings and so it can operate at 9G while F-18 due to its folding wings is reduced to just 7.5G load factor. Wud you still call it a better fighter? Also please read the max range of F-18SH v/s that of Rafale-M with just internal fuel or with max fuel, you will know what I am saying.
 

abingdonboy

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Sorry, it will take that long for the IAF to get the Rafale into Service. The AMCA hasn't even flown a prototype. As a matter of fact the design hasn't even been frozen yet. At least not to my knowledge.....



As for what the Indian Navy may face. I think you left out possible Chinese Designs like the J-20 and/or J-31. Plus, who says the IN or IAF won't face the PAK-FA??? Couldn't India face PLAN or PLAAF Flankers? Who knows who Russia mite sell PAK-FA's too!
Russia won't be selling the PAK-FA to anyone India doesn't approve of. Just like the Bhramos India and Russia have come up with a list of "approved" states both nations are comfortable with selling these high-end military gear. There is next to ZERO chance of the IAF or IN ever going AGAINST the PAK-FA/
 

abingdonboy

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I think we need to break this down......



2.) India at this stage at least only plans on procuring ~200 FGFA (PAKFA) from Russia. While it may purchase more down the road. India is not likely procure the type in vast numbers. Plus, I would add that Russia has had no problem selling its most advance hardware to India's enemies. As with the Flanker in the case of China. So, if the China fails to develop its own 5th Generation Fighters. (i.e. J-20, J-31, etc.) It could purchase the PAK-FA. Hell, I could see China building its own and still purchasing a number of PAK-FA's. My God India could face PAK-FA's, J-20's, J-31's etc. etc. Which, is a real possibility!
Like I have said ^^ Russia isn't going to be selling the PAK-FA to anyone India doesn't approve of. And 200-250+ 5th gen fighters isn't a "vast" number? These are numbers the F-22 will never see.
3.) While, Pakistan is only a moderate threat today to the IAF. That could change very quickly with China as a Partner. As it can provide Advance 5th Generation Fighters anytime if chooses. This would mean India could face such types on two fronts!
Pakistan? Please they spend, what, 5% of what India does on defence? The gap is only going to widen between India and Pakistan in the coming years. The Paksitanis can dream and beg big brother China for scraps off the table (5th gen fighters) but that doesn't mean China will be all that interested. Unless China is willing to give the birds free of charge, pay for all training, pay for all weapons package, pay for all maintence and pay for all spares then the deal is a non-starter.
 

Crusader53

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:rofl::rofl:
Russia won't be selling the PAK-FA to anyone India doesn't approve of. Just like the Bhramos India and Russia have come up with a list of "approved" states both nations are comfortable with selling these high-end military gear. There is next to ZERO chance of the IAF or IN ever going AGAINST the PAK-FA/
So, your telling me India gave Russia approval to sell Flankers (among other items) to China. LOL:laugh:


I would add that Russia is currently in discussion with China over selling the Su-35. Which, have a number of components that will be included in the PAK-FA.
 
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Crusader53

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Like I have said ^^ Russia isn't going to be selling the PAK-FA to anyone India doesn't approve of. And 200-250+ 5th gen fighters isn't a "vast" number? These are numbers the F-22 will never see.

While Russia and/ or India may procure more PAK-FA's than the US does in F-22's. The number is not likely great. Plus, the latter will have 1000's of F-35's and are already working on the next Generation. (i.e.6th) In addition and more importantly China is likely doing the same thing. Which, is the whole point!


Pakistan? Please they spend, what, 5% of what India does on defence? The gap is only going to widen between India and Pakistan in the coming years. The Paksitanis can dream and beg big brother China for scraps off the table (5th gen fighters) but that doesn't mean China will be all that interested. Unless China is willing to give the birds free of charge, pay for all training, pay for all weapons package, pay for all maintence and pay for all spares then the deal is a non-starter.
If, China believes it need to contain India or it feels the need to protect Pakistan from the latter. China could in fact support much of the expense for Pakistan to acquire such types. Also, who is to say China couldn't base 5th Generation Aircraft in Pakistan! Remember, China is involved with a number of countries about basing at this very moment.
 

Somreet Bhattacharya

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Well, the US is the largest arms producer in the world and you don't see any of its customers complaining about such restriction. As for what India purchases for the US in the future. I think you will be surprised.
There is no doubt about the fact that the US is the largest arms 'producer' in the world...but it is not a not the largest 'exporter' is it?? Going by plain facts it is fairly visible that the present US arms market is more or less limited to the NATO countries and the so called 'client states' like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan Taiwan and Japan, and most of the sales are made with a certain strategic plan in mind..see India never stands a chance in the US policies ever...in fact technically speaking the US still trusts Pakistan more than India...we hold a position where the US security departments classifies us as a 'potential threat' till date no matter how low it is, it is there..therefore, I see no chance of the US selling it top-end defense products to India, without a EUMA, or anything of the sort.
 

Somreet Bhattacharya

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:rofl::rofl:

So, your telling me India gave Russia approval to sell Flankers (among other items) to China. LOL:laugh:


I would add that Russia is currently in discussion with China over selling the Su-35. Which, have a number of components that will be included in the PAK-FA.

@abingdonboy...Sir Russia and India does not have any such agreements like the Brahmos as relation to the PAK FA...Russia might very well sell the PAK FA to China, and the possibilities are high, but it wont be the same version as that of India, here the Indian technology comes in....you see, that is what the total idea of the FGFA is. I do not know, whether that will make it superior to that of the probable Chinese stuff but, yes it will be unique...
 
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SajeevJino

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:rofl::rofl:

So, your telling me India gave Russia approval to sell Flankers (among other items) to China. LOL:laugh:

Brahmos and PAK FA are same agreements both are 50-50 JV so both needs to clear move to sell Third Country ..Su 30 is different It's by Sukhoi But HAL modifies as it needs for the IAF
 

lookieloo

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It would be neat if the Navy jumps into the Rafale bandwagon too. Would save the hassle of going through a new tender.
Ok, so your plan is to rely on fortune and French goodwill to keep the Rafale M in production until India needs it.
 

lookieloo

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which aircraft wud you choose between two if one is quick footed like a rabbit and other is a pregnant buffalo.
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought load/range were what mattered to you; guess that only applies in comparison to the F-35C. Come to think about it, most of the comparisons I've seen to the F-35 here are rather selective. Always with the "doesn't have the kinematics of X" or "doesn't have the range of Y" or "isn't as *stealthy* as Z." The *stealth* part is especially amusing; I've always wondered where so many people learned how to eyeball RCS models from photographs.
 

Decklander

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Oh, I'm sorry, I thought load/range were what mattered to you; guess that only applies in comparison to the F-35C. Come to think about it, most of the comparisons I've seen to the F-35 here are rather selective. Always with the "doesn't have the kinematics of X" or "doesn't have the range of Y" or "isn't as *stealthy* as Z." The *stealth* part is especially amusing; I've always wondered where so many people learned how to eyeball RCS models from photographs.
Once you guys sort out the problem of F-35 regarding its tailhook, you can call it a ship based fighter as of now, the problem of tailhook being very closely positioned to main gear has this aircraft unfit for ships. I hope you are aware of this problem.
 

lookieloo

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Once you guys sort out the problem of F-35 regarding its tailhook, you can call it a ship based fighter as of now, the problem of tailhook being very closely positioned to main gear has this aircraft unfit for ships. I hope you are aware of this problem.
You seem to be a little out of date as that issue has already been addressed; turned out they just needed to sharpen the hook and add a dampener. Carrier trials are still scheduled for later this year or early next.

 
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p2prada

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Ok, so your plan is to rely on fortune and French goodwill to keep the Rafale M in production until India needs it.
Yup. Pretty much the same story everywhere, including FGFA, F-35 etc.

Without the fortune and goodwill of export customers even the F-35 program will become a huge problem for LM.

It is just that the French goodwill is quite related to their own requirements for 12 more aircraft as you so judiciously pointed out, up from the 48 aircraft ordered today.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought load/range were what mattered to you; guess that only applies in comparison to the F-35C. Come to think about it, most of the comparisons I've seen to the F-35 here are rather selective. Always with the "doesn't have the kinematics of X" or "doesn't have the range of Y" or "isn't as *stealthy* as Z." The *stealth* part is especially amusing; I've always wondered where so many people learned how to eyeball RCS models from photographs.
He is talking about the SH not the F-35.
 

lookieloo

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He is talking about the SH not the F-35.
Recommend looking at the whole conversation.

Also, you still don't seem to get fighter procurement works. If the IN really wants Rafale for the IAC II, they'll have to place orders some years before the MN run finishes; otherwise, the long-lead pipeline shuts down and they'll have to pay a sizable time/price penalty to get it restarted. Personally, if I were the IN, I'd also start querying Sukhoi about the possibility of a CATOBAR Flanker right now.
 

Decklander

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You seem to be a little out of date as that issue has already been addressed; turned out they just needed to sharpen the hook and add a dampener. Carrier trials are still scheduled for later this year or early next.

are you aware that F-35 has a problem in engaging the wire if it lands between two wires? when an ac touches down between two wires, its main gear goes over the wire and if the distance is small between the main gear and the hook, wire does not get enough time to rise up to be caught by the hook even if the hook is travelling flush with the deck. In a perfect deck landing, the ac flies to a point of height on deck where the hook engages first and than the ac hits the deck. However 99% landings are done in a manner that ac hits the deck first and than the hook engages.
 
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lookieloo

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are you aware that F-35 has a problem in engaging the wire if it lands between two wires? when an ac touches down between two wires, its main gear goes over the wire and if the distance is small between the main gear and the hook, wire does not get enough time to rise up to be caught by the hook even if the hook is travelling flush with the deck. In a perfect deck landing, the ac flies to a point of height on deck where the hook engages first and than the ac hits the deck. However 99% landings are done in a manner that ac hits the deck first and than the hook engages.
And I just explained how simple the problem was to fix.

If you need to hear it again Barney-style:
1. They sharpen hook to catch less-rebounded wire
2. Add dampener to keep hook from bouncing

See? Now wasn't that easier than bawling for a complete redesign?
 

average american

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As costly as the F35 is its 3 variations are trying to accomplish a boat load of differant functions, replace 8 or more planes in the US inventory,,,,parts to be 85 percent compatable, comfortable take upgrades for more then next 20 to 30 years, Allow streamlining of training and logistics...example no repair to require removal of more then one other part to make a repair. also to allow any experienced pilot to spend a few hours in a simulator and then be able to fly in to combat. Also combines stealth even when carrying weapons or fuel on pylones with being a strike fighter.
 

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