INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[Hari Sud]

Problems, solutions and budgets for India's social, internal security and external threats are separated and different in nature.
It's a lame argument usually from people with lack of insight.

One doesn't come at cost of another. Skipping $5 billion for an AC or $2 billions isn't going to bring down India's poverty or insurgency. Those require a large amount of budget over even a larger period of time. They are getting attention, getting improved but need time.

Comparing internal & external challenges like a poor man I will not buy a cycle today since I have to eat two eggs daily to gain protein in next 5 years.

Most likely $10 billion or more with A/C And Fighters and supporting warships and supply ships.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Most likely $10 billion or more with A/C And Fighters and supporting warships and supply ships.

So not only are you saying no to third aircraft carrier, you are also saying no to all the other warships and supply ships as well? So you are basically arguing for a much weaker Indian Navy overall, not just one without three carriers, but also one with lesser warships and jets. And then you call me a Chinese agent?

 

[Hari Sud]

So not only are you saying no to third aircraft carrier, you are also saying no to all the other warships and supply ships as well? So you are basically arguing for a much weaker Indian Navy overall, not just one without three carriers, but also one with lesser warships and jets. And then you call me a Chinese agent?

‘Bad conclusions drawn from my post. I said nuclear attack submarines instead of A/C. Rather more nuclear attack submarines for sea denial.

By the way what are the Chinese characters doing in your post. Are you a Chinese?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

‘Bad conclusions drawn from my post. I said nuclear attack submarines instead of A/C. Rather more nuclear attack submarines for sea denial.

By the way what are the Chinese characters doing in your post. Are you a Chinese?

Nuclear Attack Submarines are only good for sea denial in wartime. Your opponent (China) practices gray warfare. Its better to have something visible against these guys. Not saying that Nuclear Attack Subs are not needed. They still have utility as Naval Intel platforms in peacetime, but they can't really deter a PLAN carrier fleet and control the escalation ladder. With nuke subs, its direct 0 or 100. No middling.

And those characters are Japanese, not Chinese. They are related to this video:-

Spoiler: Video

 

[Hari Sud]

Nuclear Attack Submarines are only good for sea denial in wartime. Your opponent (China) practices gray warfare. Its better to have something visible against these guys. Not saying that Nuclear Attack Subs are not needed. They still have utility as Naval Intel platforms in peacetime, but they can't really deter a PLAN carrier fleet and control the escalation ladder. With nuke subs, its direct 0 or 100. No middling.

And those characters are Japanese, not Chinese. They are related to this video:-

Spoiler: Video

‘When a submarine is lurking in the neighbourhood, the enemy knows and is scared to death with its presence.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

‘When a submarine is lurking in the neighbourhood, the enemy knows and is scared to death with its presence.

If the enemy knows where your submarine is, its toast. Especially if the enemy is a carrier battlegroup. Submarines by nature are stealthy. Even in peacetime, using submarines for posturing by surfacing them is not the best move. OK, you've shown where you are, but now if we were to start a war here and now, you're toast. Different story if that submarine has its own carrier fleet to protect it nearby though.

 

[maximus777]

 

[swapcv]

‘When a submarine is lurking in the neighbourhood, the enemy knows and is scared to death with its presence.

Maritime Patrol Aircraft and Anti-Sub Warfare Helo say Hello.

 

[maximus777]

‘When a submarine is lurking in the neighbourhood, the enemy knows and is scared to death with its presence.

Unless its on the surface with its AShBM/AShCM missile hatches open and someone doing this with the launch codes/buttons.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

‘When a submarine is lurking in the neighbourhood, the enemy knows and is scared to death with its presence.

Maritime Patrol Aircraft and Anti-Sub Warfare Helo say Hello.

 

[Hari Sud]

If the enemy knows where your submarine is, its toast. Especially if the enemy is a carrier battlegroup. Submarines by nature are stealthy. Even in peacetime, using submarines for posturing by surfacing them is not the best move. OK, you've shown where you are, but now if we were to start a war here and now, you're toast. Different story if that submarine has its own carrier fleet to protect it nearby though.

‘You have not explained what these Chinese characters in your post at the bottom indicate…….だが男だ

Are you a Chinese? This I am asking second time….. Before you enter into the debate in this forum, answer that first.

 

[Marliii]

‘You have not explained what these Chinese characters in your post at the bottom indicate…….だが男だ

Are you a Chinese? This I am asking second time….. Before you enter into the debate in this forum, answer that first.

He said they are japanese .do you have any mission to prove he is a chinese because he doesn't believe in "submarines are unstoppable "

 

[UnderFingy]

‘You have not explained what these Chinese characters in your post at the bottom indicate…….だが男だ

Are you a Chinese? This I am asking second time….. Before you enter into the debate in this forum, answer that first.

 

[swapcv]

‘You have not explained what these Chinese characters in your post at the bottom indicate…….だが男だ

Are you a Chinese? This I am asking second time….. Before you enter into the debate in this forum, answer that first.

That's not Chinese mein Freund, but either Katakana or Hiragana script. Please do some linguistic research as well. By the way, Chinese writing system has been adopted by a number of non-Chinese countries like SK and Japan in the form of Hanja and Kanji, so be careful while you go about accusing someone of being a Chinese.

 

[IndianHawk]

If the enemy knows where your submarine is, its toast. Especially if the enemy is a carrier battlegroup. Submarines by nature are stealthy. Even in peacetime, using submarines for posturing by surfacing them is not the best move. OK, you've shown where you are, but now if we were to start a war here and now, you're toast. Different story if that submarine has its own carrier fleet to protect it nearby though.

Submarines can posture too while remaining stealth and without surfacing.

Usual trick is to post a picture of enemy aircraft carrier/ destroyer in cross hairs of lurking hidden submarines.

Release of such pictures is enough to send chill in the spines of enemy armada as well as strategic circles of nearby nations.

 

[Marliii]

Submarines can posture too while remaining stealth and without surfacing.

Usual trick is to post a picture of enemy aircraft carrier/ destroyer in cross hairs of lurking hidden submarines.

Release of such pictures is enough to send chill in the spines of enemy armada as well as strategic circles of nearby nations.

In peace time yes the crew would nt be active and looking for a sub so going close and taking pics of an aircraft carrier in cross hairs is of propaganda value but instead of scaring the enemy most of the times it makes the enemy correct their weakness and strengthen their anti sub warfare capabilities so the next time instead of the AC being the cross hairs next time it would be the sub that would be in the cross hairs of a p8 or anti sub helo

 

[IndianHawk]

In peace time yes the crew would nt be active and looking for a sub so going close and taking pics of an aircraft carrier in cross hairs is of propaganda value but instead of scaring the enemy most of the times it makes the enemy correct their weakness and strengthen their anti sub warfare capabilities so the next time instead of the AC being the cross hairs next time it would be the sub that would be in the cross hairs of a p8 or anti sub helo

That's the part of the game . Whenever enemy ships are in your territory you let them know that they are tracked and marked and they let you know that they are prepared for it.

Not doing it only emboldens the enemy.

That's why nuke subs are so important. They are so fast underwater that their location is never truly known.

 

[angryIndian]

Problems, solutions and budgets for India's social, internal security and external threats are separated and different in nature.
It's a lame argument usually from people with lack of insight.

One doesn't come at cost of another. Skipping $5 billion for an AC or $2 billions isn't going to bring down India's poverty or insurgency. Those require a large amount of budget over even a larger period of time. They are getting attention, getting improved but need time.

Comparing internal & external challenges like a poor man I will not buy a cycle today since I have to eat two eggs daily to gain protein in next 5 years.

It didn't take an attack from the US to crumble Soviet Union.You cannot project your external hard power if you are weak internally.

As i said immediate threats should be prioritized over distant probabilistic threats because of the extreme financial limitations.
The need for Light Tanks and armoured vehicles,basic soldier equipments,unarmed combat vehicles,Figher jets and plethora of others far supseeds the need of an Aircraft carrier.


And the type of aircraft carrier that the Navy wants ie 65,000 tonnes,with EMALS and perhaps nuclear or Integrated Propulsion.It's going to cost many times more than your quoted price of 5 billion $.Not to mention the lifetime cost of the carrier(operation and maintenance) which would eat a large chunk of Naval budget and above all the probabilistic chance of the aircraft carrier ever seeing action is low when compared to other platforms.

 

[Marliii]

It didn't take an attack from the US to crumble Soviet Union.You cannot project your external hard power if you are weak internally.

As i said immediate threats should be prioritized over distant probabilistic threats because of the extreme financial limitations.
The need for Light Tanks and armoured vehicles,basic soldier equipments,unarmed combat vehicles,Figher jets and plethora of others far supseeds the need of an Aircraft carrier.


And the type of aircraft carrier that the Navy wants ie 65,000 tonnes,with EMALS and perhaps nuclear or Integrated Propulsion.It's going to cost many times more than your quoted price of 5 billion $.Not to mention the lifetime cost of the carrier(operation and maintenance) which would eat a large chunk of Naval budget and above all the probabilistic chance of the aircraft carrier ever seeing action is low when compared to other platforms.

That's stupid logic has any indian sub fired in anger in its entire indian history no.that doesn't mean you should stop building subs its not if you use it or not its the deterence value and if a type 003 comes blaring into the indian ocean it would nt be tanks or soldiers who will try to stop it.it would be subs and aircraft carriers .tanks and soldier equipment are of army's problem fighter jets are airforces problem. Navy has its requirements.

 

[Love Charger]

That's stupid logic has any indian sub fired in anger in its entire indian history no.that doesn't mean you should stop building subs its not if you use it or not its the deterence value and if a type 003 comes blaring into the indian ocean it would nt be tanks or soldiers who will try to stop it.it would be subs and aircraft carriers .tanks and soldier equipment are of army's problem fighter jets are airforces problem. Navy has its requirements.

Budget is government s problem though.