INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

[vampyrbladez]

+ all those saying F18 is fine because folding wing width of 9.93m<10m lift width are in for a shock


Maybe not the time to point out that the IN has utterly screwed itself by opting for the smallest lifts and hanger entry seen on any carrier in service today (Russians don’t count). Either sheer incompetence or the Russians that designed the aviation complex were very ‘convincing’ to the navy officers

In my observation, a conventional 50,000 ton IAC 2 follow on will be built and will be under construction by the end of this decade.

https://idrw.org/iac-2-navy-fiddling-with-two-options/

 

[IndianHawk]

India has finished building the Aircraft Carrier. Now India has two. There is a media outcry for a third one. This outcry is partly fuelled by the ship builders and partly by the interested naval officers who have retired. A lot has been written about the need of the third but none of the arguments stand up against its cost of a fully outfitted aircraft carrier ($10 billion). In its place you can have three nuclear submarines; one more ballistic missile submarine on top two India already has and two nuclear attack submarines. That will be a total sea denial for any Chinese or any other power’s sea adventure. These nuclear submarines (5 in all) and supplemented by diesel submarines both built and under construction will give india total control of the Indian Ocean.

Hence argument of third aircraft carrier is unnecessary.

I agree that we need to sort out submarines fleet first and build many more destroyers and frigates . Buy critical equipment like Minesweeper and landing transport dock for assault operation before we need another carrier.

But if we don't build another carrier now we will loose all the workforce trained for it with vikrant. So we need to order a carrier anyway.

Govt can approve a 65k ton catobar and start designing it which will not require much money for now. Start building it by2026-27 hence retain the workforce and by that time there should be more money in budget.
Build it by 2035-36.

And then start building vikramaditya replacement from 2040 and keep building continue.

 

[IndianHawk]

In my observation, a conventional 50,000 ton IAC 2 follow on will be built and will be under construction by the end of this decade.

https://idrw.org/iac-2-navy-fiddling-with-two-options/

Capital wise investment in 15k more tones will be 20-30% more but operational capabilities ( aircraft storage and sorties rate ) will rise much more .

You should read up on British carrier debate as to how they settled at 65k carriers. Also french next gen concept is 75k tons. Chinese are now building 70-80k tons carriers .

So 65k is the sweet spot if one looks at international trends which keeps our carriers competitive long in future.

 

[Blademaster]

And we need to go for catapult systems to be able to launch a full payload combat jet.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

A full sized CATOBAR carrier is unavoidable if you want to be a serious naval power. More than the construction of the ship though, I'm concerned about the aircraft procurement. We've only managed to get 36 new fighters for the Air Force itself in the past 10 years. The cost snd procurement time for 57 modern western fighters for the navy will not be pretty. And this is when most countries with carriers are already moving towards 5th gen jets.

Secondly, I'm not seeing any plans for rapid expansion of the destroyer and submarine fleets, without which you cannot have enough ships for 3 carrier battle groups, plus enough ships for other duties. Even if 1 carrier is always in maintenance, the present number of destroyers including planned Vishakapatnam is not enough. And then there are the replenishment ships like tankers, which we will also need to procure more of. We will enter a Royal Navy situation where they bought 2 carriers but don't have enough ships for 2 CBG's, nor enough planes for the 2 carriers.

There are many elements in the navy which need to come together before a 3rd carrier makes sense, and I'm not seeing these other elements going in a satisfactory direction or speed.

Our situation is not as bad as the Royal Navy though. The got half our number of Destroyers and Frigates. Also, at least for frigates, the news of a possible P-17B after Nilgiri class makes me a bit more confident. Agree on submarines though.

Oh fucking please. Owaisi is nothing but a snake. He’s no patriot. He takes orders from his paymasters in Pakistan.

Exactly. If you can force a guy like him to behave in the manner that @abingdonboy highlighted, its a win. Opposition not too long ago was discouraging ruling party from buying Rafale. Now this guy is batting for a 3rd carrier. Even if this is subterfuge, its a partial win because him being forced to take that position means national political discourse is being forced to move in the right direction.

 

[scatterStorm]

I don't know about you fellas, but by 2050 Chinese will have at-least 6 carriers in there fleet, all with its current highest displacement carrier.

Its no joke, there presence will be felt in our waters sooner. The ship docked at hambantota is a clear sign of what's coming next. It was a technological power projection.

For the interim, Agni Prime development and Hunter killer Subs must be focused, because they lurking beneath our waters is the best possible stealth anything can offer. Agni prime be modularized and miniaturized in way that they can be carry in a 2 silo pod over our destroyer will make it the one of the formidable destroyers.

A destroyer capable of not just firing supersonic cruise missile, but firing off a carrier killer missile. That's the current need of the hour, in that buffer time, reach to 4 Super carrier class, making a total of 6 carriers, with each capable of projecting power.

 

[IndianHawk]

I don't know about you fellas, but by 2050 Chinese will have at-least 6 carriers in there fleet, all with its current highest displacement carrier.

Its no joke, there presence will be felt in our waters sooner. The ship docked at hambantota is a clear sign of what's coming next. It was a technological power projection.

For the interim, Agni Prime development and Hunter killer Subs must be focused, because they lurking beneath our waters is the best possible stealth anything can offer. Agni prime be modularized and miniaturized in way that they can be carry in a 2 silo pod over our destroyer will make it the one of the formidable destroyers.

A destroyer capable of not just firing supersonic cruise missile, but firing off a carrier killer missile. That's the current need of the hour, in that buffer time, reach to 4 Super carrier class, making a total of 6 carriers, with each capable of projecting power.

And we will have atleast 3 carriers by 2050 too. Vikrant is already here . We will get one more by 2040 at leisure and vikramaditya replacement will be built till 2050. Which is more than enough for IOR.

Given that out of 6 carriers chinese will at any given time have 4 available for deployment and they will have to contend with Japanese carrier's and US Carriers deployed in Pacific and indian Ocean.


Agni prime aircraft killer version is coming but it won't go on any destroyer. Deploying that on andmaan will make it difficult for chinese carriers to cross malakka.

Also we will have 6 SSN in service by 2040. By 2050 we might have 4 more for a total of 10 SSN. 10 SSN should be sufficient to sink anything in Indian Ocean for an invading force . That's very serious naval power.

 

[IndianHawk]

A full sized CATOBAR carrier is unavoidable if you want to be a serious naval power. More than the construction of the ship though, I'm concerned about the aircraft procurement. We've only managed to get 36 new fighters for the Air Force itself in the past 10 years. The cost snd procurement time for 57 modern western fighters for the navy will not be pretty. And this is when most countries with carriers are already moving towards 5th gen jets.

Secondly, I'm not seeing any plans for rapid expansion of the destroyer and submarine fleets, without which you cannot have enough ships for 3 carrier battle groups, plus enough ships for other duties. Even if 1 carrier is always in maintenance, the present number of destroyers including planned Vishakapatnam is not enough. And then there are the replenishment ships like tankers, which we will also need to procure more of. We will enter a Royal Navy situation where they bought 2 carriers but don't have enough ships for 2 CBG's, nor enough planes for the 2 carriers.

There are many elements in the navy which need to come together before a 3rd carrier makes sense, and I'm not seeing these other elements going in a satisfactory direction or speed.

Not just 36 jet!!
In last 10 year we have added 36 rafale + 32 lca Tejas + 40-50 Sukhoi 30mki ( which we built from 2012 onwards). So we have added atleast 100 new jets in 10 yrs.
This decade should be much better given 73 mk1a and 18 twin seat Tejas are already ordered.

Our naval build-up is in much better shape though . We have screwed up with ssk procurement but atleast SSN are approved.

Surface ship situation is much better with 11 frigates and 4 destroyers under-construction and almost 30 Corvettes in construction/ planning . ( 16 asw scw , 8 NGC + 6 ngmv).

New about repeating p17a order seems very encouraging for future career battle groups.
But they need to speed up ssk procurement fast. We need atleast 6 more asap. Not ordering 3 more scorpion was a mistake.

Even middling like turkey is planning indegenous submarine we should make our Design based on Scorpion add drdo aip , lithium ion batteries and build them in numbers.

Since one Carrier will probably remain in refit / maintenance at a time you will need two carrier battle groups deployed not 3. ( It takes 2 years plus to refit ).

Besides third carrier is a decade away the least . By then we shall have 3SSN in water to add to Carrier group .

 

[scatterStorm]

And we will have atleast 3 carriers by 2050 too. Vikrant is already here . We will get one more by 2040 at leisure and vikramaditya replacement will be built till 2050. Which is more than enough for IOR.

Given that out of 6 carriers chinese will at any given time have 4 available for deployment and they will have to contend with Japanese carrier's and US Carriers deployed in Pacific and indian Ocean.


Agni prime aircraft killer version is coming but it won't go on any destroyer. Deploying that on andmaan will make it difficult for chinese carriers to cross malakka.

Also we will have 6 SSN in service by 2040. By 2050 we might have 4 more for a total of 10 SSN. 10 SSN should be sufficient to sink anything in Indian Ocean for an invading force . That's very serious naval power.

Going indigenous is now very much a necessity. We never know that while fighting a two front war, Chinese will try to block us from Jaboti. Those SSNs you mentioned is relief, will they be French made or indigenous? I hope they have AIP.

 

[IndianHawk]

Going indigenous is now very much a necessity. We never know that while fighting a two front war, Chinese will try to block us from Jaboti. Those SSNs you mentioned is relief, will they be French made or indigenous? I hope they have AIP.

SSN are indegenous. They might have some sennosr sourced from France .

 

[abingdonboy]

Oh fucking please. Owaisi is nothing but a snake. He’s no patriot. He takes orders from his paymasters in Pakistan.

Vitriol aside, the point is the conversation in this space is being elevated beyond purely obstructionist politics and trying to spoil each other’s defence deals.

if India is to become a military power it needs the civilians to take an interest, have knowledge and be constructive in their critique.

 

[dfcool]

mediocre commie youtubers are deshbhakts and experts

Aircraft carries are worthless. thats why china building 7 of them in next decade, usa operate 11 of them.

no wonder this type of people have nothing to contribute but comment and mislead common people with cost jyada ho gaya.

 

[abingdonboy]

In my observation, a conventional 50,000 ton IAC 2 follow on will be built and will be under construction by the end of this decade.

https://idrw.org/iac-2-navy-fiddling-with-two-options/

End of the decade+ 10 years (minimum) to build. So likely late 2030s/2040s india gets its second carrier (I imagine come early 2040s Vikky will be retired) then another 15-20 year wait for the next single class carrier to replace the IAC-1?

Just pathetically poor planning and low ambition. It feels like IN wants carriers only to say they have them not to actually fight with

 

[abingdonboy]

I agree that we need to sort out submarines fleet first and build many more destroyers and frigates . Buy critical equipment like Minesweeper and landing transport dock for assault operation before we need another carrier.

But if we don't build another carrier now we will loose all the workforce trained for it with vikrant. So we need to order a carrier anyway.

Govt can approve a 65k ton catobar and start designing it which will not require much money for now. Start building it by2026-27 hence retain the workforce and by that time there should be more money in budget.
Build it by 2035-36.

And then start building vikramaditya replacement from 2040 and keep building continue.

No point in building amphibious warfare capabilities if you don’t have numbers of carriers first. You think you can storm enemy be beaches without air cover? India doesn’t even have naval attack helicopters

 

[abingdonboy]

I don't know about you fellas, but by 2050 Chinese will have at-least 6 carriers in there fleet, all with its current highest displacement carrier.

Its no joke, there presence will be felt in our waters sooner. The ship docked at hambantota is a clear sign of what's coming next. It was a technological power projection.

For the interim, Agni Prime development and Hunter killer Subs must be focused, because they lurking beneath our waters is the best possible stealth anything can offer. Agni prime be modularized and miniaturized in way that they can be carry in a 2 silo pod over our destroyer will make it the one of the formidable destroyers.

A destroyer capable of not just firing supersonic cruise missile, but firing off a carrier killer missile. That's the current need of the hour, in that buffer time, reach to 4 Super carrier class, making a total of 6 carriers, with each capable of projecting power.

By 2050 PLAN will have a minimum of 10 CBG. At this rate india will have 3

 

[abingdonboy]

mediocre commie youtubers are deshbhakts and experts

Aircraft carries are worthless. thats why china building 7 of them in next decade, usa operate 11 of them.

no wonder this type of people have nothing to contribute but comment and mislead common people with cost jyada ho gaya.


View attachment 170264

STOBAR carriers are largely useless but aircraft carriers themselves if done right are still game changers- that’s why the US relies so heavily on their super carrier fleet.

 

[IndianHawk]

No point in building amphibious warfare capabilities if you don’t have numbers of carriers first. You think you can storm enemy be beaches without air cover? India doesn’t even have naval attack helicopters

We need to be able to conduct assualt operations on all islands in Indian Ocean.

 

[scatterStorm]

mediocre commie youtubers are deshbhakts and experts

Aircraft carries are worthless. thats why china building 7 of them in next decade, usa operate 11 of them.

no wonder this type of people have nothing to contribute but comment and mislead common people with cost jyada ho gaya.


View attachment 170264

When the Chinese will dock again at Hambantota with a couple of frigates or destroyers, then this asshole will know what it means for a naval might.

 

[scatterStorm]

By 2050 PLAN will have a minimum of 10 CBG. At this rate india will have 3

Anything greater than 5 is alarming. For the time being the 7th fleet and now its rumored that Aussies too want a AC or a HC will keep them in check.

 

[abingdonboy]

We need to be able to conduct assualt operations on all islands in Indian Ocean.

I agree but IN/MoD has taken very very few steps to make it a reality. Just buying LHD doesn’t make you capable of it, india has no combined arms amphibious assault force (the army’s amphibious brigade doesn’t count, they are hilariously out of date)