INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[shuvo@y2k10]

1.6 mach is low?

Foxbat was able to fly at 2.5 Mach. But for that it has to achieve its maximum altitude of 68000 feet. There too if it sustains the high Mach, it has to undergo massive overhauling of its engine and fuselage. So practically it has to cruise at lower speed.
Look at the maximum speed of F-35. It too was designed for Mach 1.6. Now keeping a low Mach number is more practical now a days. Anyway its rare that anyone would touch those numbers.

DSIs could be designed for any mach number.

Actually TEDBF is designed to replaced Mig-29K. So it is expected to match or exceed its aerodynamic and payload carrying capacity.

Another thing is not clear whether whether Mach 1.6 will be acheived with GE-414 engine or the proposed 110 KN engine.

 

[Chinmoy]

Actually TEDBF is designed to replaced Mig-29K. So it is expected to match or exceed its aerodynamic and payload carrying capacity.

Another thing is not clear whether whether Mach 1.6 will be acheived with GE-414 engine or the proposed 110 KN engine.

Mig-29K max speed is around 1.7 mach. But the real downside of it is that it can't operate with maximum payload from deck. So speed wise the performance of TEDBF and Mig-29K would be same. The point remains to be seen is at the payload with which TEDBF could operate from deck. From the initial design it seems to be promising. But final product might be somewhat different. So instead of speed, we should worry about the operational MTOW and service ceiling.

This Mach 1.6 is with GE414. Downside of DSI intake is, even if you incorporate a much powerfull engine, you can't push your fighter more then what the DSI is designed for. So with two 110kn engines too, the Mach number would be what it has been designed for.

 

[Deadtrap]

Which AD system Vikramaditya have? Barak or Barak 8? So much of confusion amongst defence YouTubers. Defence Decode says Barak 8, Alpha Defence says Barak 1

 

[Chinmoy]

Which AD system Vikramaditya have? Barak or Barak 8? So much of confusion amongst defence YouTubers. Defence Decode says Barak 8, Alpha Defence says Barak 1

Earlier it was Barak 1. But in latest refit, it was to be equipped with Barak-8.

 

[Lonewolf]

Mig-29K max speed is around 1.7 mach. But the real downside of it is that it can't operate with maximum payload from deck. So speed wise the performance of TEDBF and Mig-29K would be same. The point remains to be seen is at the payload with which TEDBF could operate from deck. From the initial design it seems to be promising. But final product might be somewhat different. So instead of speed, we should worry about the operational MTOW and service ceiling.

This Mach 1.6 is with GE414. Downside of DSI intake is, even if you incorporate a much powerfull engine, you can't push your fighter more then what the DSI is designed for. So with two 110kn engines too, the Mach number would be what it has been designed for.

And what will it take for dsi redesign

 

[Chinmoy]

And what will it take for dsi redesign

A whole structural redesigning. Both external and internal.

 

[sorcerer]

'
Fire on board INS Vikramaditya; All personnel safe: Indian Navy


2 minutes


There was a minor fire on board India's aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya on Saturday morning, a Navy spokesperson said.
The fire was doused and all personnel on board are safe, the spokesperson said in a statement here.
"The duty staff observed smoke emanating from the part of the warship having accommodation for sailors.
"The ship's duty personnel acted promptly to fight the fire. All personnel on board have been accounted for and no major damage has been reported," the statement said.

Fire on board INS Vikramaditya; All personnel safe: Indian Navy

An inquiry into the incident has been ordered, a Navy spokesperson said, adding the aircraft carrier is in Karnataka's Karwar harbour.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

hmmm...

 

[Starlight]

Mig-29K max speed is around 1.7 mach. But the real downside of it is that it can't operate with maximum payload from deck. So speed wise the performance of TEDBF and Mig-29K would be same. The point remains to be seen is at the payload with which TEDBF could operate from deck. From the initial design it seems to be promising. But final product might be somewhat different. So instead of speed, we should worry about the operational MTOW and service ceiling.

This Mach 1.6 is with GE414. Downside of DSI intake is, even if you incorporate a much powerfull engine, you can't push your fighter more then what the DSI is designed for. So with two 110kn engines too, the Mach number would be what it has been designed for.

I know the redesign will happen later

 

[Gessler]

'
Fire on board INS Vikramaditya; All personnel safe: Indian Navy


2 minutes


There was a minor fire on board India's aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya on Saturday morning, a Navy spokesperson said.
The fire was doused and all personnel on board are safe, the spokesperson said in a statement here.
"The duty staff observed smoke emanating from the part of the warship having accommodation for sailors.
"The ship's duty personnel acted promptly to fight the fire. All personnel on board have been accounted for and no major damage has been reported," the statement said.

Fire on board INS Vikramaditya; All personnel safe: Indian Navy

An inquiry into the incident has been ordered, a Navy spokesperson said, adding the aircraft carrier is in Karnataka's Karwar harbour.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

hmmm...

Mark my words, this ship will be a write-off even before 2030.

 

[tarunraju]

Mark my words, this ship will be a write-off even before 2030.

That's probably the plan, hence the go-slow on Vikrant. Any MOD worth its salt would have wrapped up Vikrant and sanctioned a 2nd carrier based on the Vikrant's design (at least it's frugal and fits our needs).

There is most definitely a go-slow on major warship construction (when you look across our SSBN programme, Visakhapatnam-class DDGs, and now Vikrant). It's as if they were wagered in a geopolitical deal. Money isn't a problem.

 

[Gessler]

That's probably the plan, hence the go-slow on Vikrant. Any MOD worth its salt would have wrapped up Vikrant and sanctioned a 2nd carrier based on the Vikrant's design (at least it's frugal and fits our needs).

There is most definitely a go-slow on major warship construction (when you look across our SSBN programme, Visakhapatnam-class DDGs, and now Vikrant). It's as if they were wagered in a geopolitical deal. Money isn't a problem.

Hmm, if you're implying that the pace of construction (or lack thereof) of these major warship projects is somehow a 'planned' circumstance, I must say I do not share this view.

 

[Lonewolf]

Hmm, if you're implying that the pace of construction (or lack thereof) of these major warship projects is somehow a 'planned' circumstance, I must say I do not share this view.

So share your view ,here

 

[Gessler]

So share your view ,here

Occam's razor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Occam's razor, Ockham's razor, Ocham's razor (Latin: novacula Occami), or the principle of parsimony or law of parsimony (Latin: lex parsimoniae) is the problem-solving principle that "entities should not be multiplied without necessity", or more simply, the simplest explanation is usually the right one."

In this case, the simplest explanation is that the delays are caused by factors such as:

1) Inability of IN/DND to freeze warship design. In contemporary shipbuilding, the design of a ship is frozen prior to cutting of first steel - unless in very extraordinary circumstances. In Indian warship building, this is unfortunately the norm. Sometimes, designs are not frozen even after ship has been launched, and modifications are continuously made. This presents huge problem for proper planning - I've read interviews of Chairman, GSL in Force magazine few years ago where he lamented this fact, and I've no reason to believe the situation is different in any yard where design agency is DND/affiliated labs. Compare these projects to where the design agency is someone who follows this procedure - like Vik Sandvik - you'll notice a marked improvement in build time, like the VC-11184 project.

2) Inefficiency of staffing. There are multiple reports where it's made abundantly clear that workers & middle-management of DPSU yards, much like employees of any other Govt company (contractual or otherwise), exhibit very poor work ethic. It is the norm to arrive much later than shift-start time, work only 2 shifts instead of 3, and stay back half an hour after shift-end just to claim Overtime benefits. All of this protected by Unions.

3) Outdated construction methods. Lack of modular construction means that production capacity of varying shipyards cannot be simultaneously made use of to reduce build times. A combination of this combined with 1) means that the superstructure cannot be fitted while ship is still in dry dock, and has to be moved out into a wet basin while it awaits design freeze on various modified components while the keel of a new ship is laid in the dry dock it just vacated. Building the superstructure outside of dry dock is nowhere as efficient as inside it.

4) Delays in delivery of equipment. The gas turbines & driveshafts of both Kolkata & Vizag-class were delayed by Ukrainian & Russian suppliers. But no lessons are learnt and instead of being penalized, we continue to award them with further contracts. Delivery of the main gearbox for IAC-1 was delayed by 1 year due to, what I'm lead to believe, a road accident which destroyed the first gearbox. Why such important, outsize cargo which should be transported via sea on a barge (possible in our case, Elecon Engineering based out of Gujarat to CSL, Kochi - both Coastal states with Ports that can load/unload such cargo) is sent around on a truck is beyond me.

Just what I could think of, off the top of my head.

 

[Hari Sud]

Mark my words, this ship will be a write-off even before 2030.

‘This was a fire incident in crew quarters, it could be carelessness. It has nothing to do with mechanical operation. Hence your opinion has no basis. If you are selling your brand Aircraft carrier of western design then you lost the bet.

 

[Marliii]

‘This was a fire incident in crew quarters, it could be carelessness. It has nothing to do with mechanical operation. Hence your opinion has no basis. If you are selling your brand Aircraft carrier of western design then you lost the bet.

That thing is cold war junk we should have never bought

 

[Dark Sorrow]

That thing is cold war junk we should have never bought

I second that.

 

[Gessler]

‘This was a fire incident in crew quarters, it could be carelessness. It has nothing to do with mechanical operation.

An incident in the crew quarters does not preclude mechanical functioning of piping or valves, which run throughout the ship.

Hence your opinion has no basis.

We are talking about a ship here that runs on outdated Soviet steam boilers & firebrick insulation. That thing is the definition of a rust bucket and a death trap. All of which presented severe problems during the ship's testing phase - and are the same kind of propulsion setup that caused much grief for Russia's own Kuznetsov.

Every day this ship stays out on sea is a toss-up.

If you are selling your brand Aircraft carrier of western design then you lost the bet.

First, if I indeed was selling a Western design - why the f@ck would I market it on a defence forum inhabited by all manner of trolls & armchair generals instead of in the halls of South Block? Are Indian MoD procurement decisions made by reading DFI posts?

Second, if at all anyone thinks buying this pile of C-R-A-P called Vikramaditya for $2.3 BILLION instead of just ordering a second IAC-1 Vikrant-class carrier was a good idea, then it becomes quite evident who is the foreign agent that one needs to be wary of.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Second, if at all anyone thinks buying this pile of C-R-A-P called Vikramaditya for $2.3 BILLION instead of just ordering a second IAC-1 Vikrant-class carrier was a good idea, then it becomes quite evident who is the foreign agent that one needs to be wary of.

It is a reasonable decision no matter what you say and does provide India with options when things go south especially with our western neighbor. Skills, training and what not continues because we have one that is working and lets modern jet like mig-29k take off and land and excercise with other navies that sport carriers like US and France. Do you know how many minor fire incidents occur on carriers or ships?
Russian help on domestic carrier was also somewhat contingent on this and other deals....they are also in business of making money and not dole out their hardwork for free....there are no carriers on sale anywhere cheaper or not for India to buy until domestic ones are ready.

 

[Gessler]

It is a reasonable decision no matter what you say and does provide India with options when things go south especially with our western neighbor. Skills, training and what not continues because we have one that is working and lets modern jet like mig-29k take off and land and excercise with other navies that sport carriers like US and France. Do you know how many minor fire incidents occur on carriers or ships?
Russian help on domestic carrier was also somewhat contingent on this and other deals....they are also in business of making money and not dole out their hardwork for free....there are no carriers on sale anywhere cheaper or not for India to buy until domestic ones are ready.

India's entire carrier procurement framework has been irrational & nonsensical.

Buying outdated carriers at exorbitant prices, building local carriers in weird one-off class, and then dreaming of a 3rd carrier. I'm glad the CDS shot these ridiculous ideas down.

A P5 country with interests all over the globe like UK which has a habit of getting into expeditionary wars went without carriers for several years, why IN felt it important enough to pour such resources into a sub-par ship with a sub-par airwing like Vikramaditya is beyond me.

Russia is/was too desperate for money to dictate terms to anyone - but that doesn't stop them from making you think they can. That's negotiation 101. Other than India no one would be willing to pay Russia billions to buy a rustbucket & to keep Sevmash well-fed.

And at this point no one with an ounce of integrity can deny with a straight face that there was huge corruption in the whole Vikky affair. Shameful conduct by IN brass. It's clear the Russians had them by the b@lls.

 

[fire starter]

India's entire carrier procurement framework has been irrational & nonsensical.

Buying outdated carriers at exorbitant prices, building local carriers in weird one-off class, and then dreaming of a 3rd carrier. I'm glad the CDS shot these ridiculous ideas down.

A P5 country with interests all over the globe like UK which has a habit of getting into expeditionary wars went without carriers for several years, why IN felt it important enough to pour such resources into a sub-par ship with a sub-par airwing like Vikramaditya is beyond me.

Russia is/was too desperate for money to dictate terms to anyone - but that doesn't stop them from making you think they can. That's negotiation 101. Other than India no one would be willing to pay Russia billions to buy a rustbucket & to keep Sevmash well-fed.

And at this point no one with an ounce of integrity can deny with a straight face that there was huge corruption in the whole Vikky affair. Shameful conduct by IN brass. It's clear the Russians had them by the b@lls.

Glad things improved after NDA came to power there was lot of corruption in armed forces during UPA rule.