INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[Bleh]

Is it a reality or your personal assumption?
The oldest Tejas in service is just 3-4 years years old while the latest Mig-21 IAF received was produced probably 20 years ago. How can you compare these 2?

Or Tejas is a brand new plane with less than 40 total and Mig-21 is a plane nearing lifecycle end with >300 all-time in service...

I think we should accept that military aircraft have a higher rate of crashes.

Nope that's a massive misconception... We operated for 2&½ decades 147 of HAL Hf-24 Maroots, through a war where it saw saw a lot of forward action, soaked ground fire & even got A2A kills.

Do you know how many were lost to mishaps during their whole service life?

MOTHERFUCKING ONE!



Our oldest Tejas are LSP-1/2/3/4/5, PV-5 & NP-1. All more than a decade old & saw more torture than any of IAF jets.
While your Mig-21s started crashing right from their induction year of 1963 (LINK), earning it "flying coffin" name for killing rookie pilots by '70s. Mig-29 are on their way to become our new crash-king... bought 80, 62 left while UPG upgradation.

I can't prove it yet, but I can bet you. NO. TEJAS. WILL. BE. LOST. TO. HUMAN. ERROR. EVER.

 

[Leonardo Alves]

And Mig-21 crashed back in the '60s too, famously killing Indira's son

He was flying a mig-21,simply wow.
Is this true?

 

[Bleh]

He was flying a mig-21,simply wow.
Is this true?

No sorry, my memory fucked up. It was some flying club aircraft.

 

[garg_bharat]

Nope... We operated for 2&½ decades 147 of HAL Hf-24 Maroots, through a war where it saw saw a lot of forward action, soaked ground fire & even got A2A kills.

Do you know how many were lost to mishaps during their whole service life?

MOTHERFUCKING ONE!



Our oldest Tejas are LSP-1/2/3/4/5, PV-5 & NP-1. All more than a decade old & saw more torture than any of IAF jets.
While your Mig-21s started crashing right from their induction year of 1963 (LINK), earning it "flying coffin" name for killing rookie pilots by '70s. Mig-29 are on their way to become our new crash-king... bought 80, 62 left while UPG upgradation.

Tejas development was very long and slow; so developers had an opportunity to iron out bugs on the ground.

But where is the quantity? Other countries including Russia did not have the luxury to go slow like us.

Plus Tejas has a very well-proven American engine. This engine has logged millions of hours. The apple to apple comparison will be when Tejas flies with Kaveri.


My point is it is easy to criticize Russian products which they have designed and built with a huge cost in money and blood. We forget our own role in crashes like lack of parts and shoddy service.

We are still not serious about aviation. I am a worried man. Don't know how you can be so positive.

 

[Bleh]

Tejas development was very long and slow; so developers had an opportunity to iron out bugs on the ground.

But where is the quantity? Other countries including Russia did not have the luxury to go slow like us.

Plus Tejas has a very well-proven American engine. This engine has logged millions of hours. The apple to apple comparison will be when Tejas flies with Kaveri.


My point is it is easy to criticize Russian products which they have designed and built with a huge cost in money and blood. We forget our own role in crashes like lack of parts and shoddy service.

Please don't bring in reliability factor. That's not the context here.

Why didn't you go look at the numbers I provided?.. Maroot had "quantity" & brand new Mig-21 started crashing right from years of induction when we had not even a squdron of them.

Have none of you seriously ever read anything about Mig-21/29 being hard to control & operate?!!
Now we have to assign veteran pilots to that junk & its crashes have reduced drastically since 2010! Never noticed that?.. Experienced pilots don't shit out more spares-parts, they make less errors!

 

[silentlurker]

Nope that's a massive misconception... We operated for 2&½ decades 147 of HAL Hf-24 Maroots, through a war where it saw saw a lot of forward action, soaked ground fire & even got A2A kills.

Do you know how many were lost to mishaps during their whole service life?

MOTHERFUCKING ONE!



Our oldest Tejas are LSP-1/2/3/4/5, PV-5 & NP-1. All more than a decade old & saw more torture than any of IAF jets.
While your Mig-21s started crashing right from their induction year of 1963 (LINK), earning it "flying coffin" name for killing rookie pilots by '70s. Mig-29 are on their way to become our new crash-king... bought 80, 62 left while UPG upgradation.

I can't prove it yet, but I can bet you. NO. TEJAS. WILL. BE. LOST. TO. HUMAN. ERROR. EVER.

Am I misunderstanding this site then? Why does it list 28 instead of 1?

Indian Air Force, Indian Army and Naval Aviation Accidents and Incidents - [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

A comprehensive database of Aircraft Accidents and losses at www.bharat-rakshak.com, spanning over 80 years

www.bharat-rakshak.com

Migs were much more common compared to Maruts, >1200 vs 147.

Looking at the above site, the crashes relative to total plane numbers are about the same, 285 Migs vs 28 Maruts. Slightly higher for Migs, but not 45% higher.

 

[Bleh]

Am I misunderstanding this site then? Why does it list 28 instead of 1?

Indian Air Force, Indian Army and Naval Aviation Accidents and Incidents - [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

A comprehensive database of Aircraft Accidents and losses at www.bharat-rakshak.com, spanning over 80 years

www.bharat-rakshak.com

Migs were much more common compared to Maruts, >1200 vs 147.

Looking at the above site, the crashes relative to total plane numbers are about the same, 285 Migs vs 28 Maruts. Slightly higher for Migs, but not 45% higher.

Good catch. Wiki says 1. But BRF is more reliable than wiki.

Nonetheless the reliability factor & userfriendlyness factor are different issues. Still check the types of issues... Flat spins, tyre bursts, lost & ejected, engine failures etc. No losses in last 10 years of service, after teething errors were removed!

Russians lag in both four subtle tech, unlike in basic ones like guns, rpg etc.
Look up Mig-21 pilots' words on it, and of German Mig-29 pilots (who are equally well suited to compare).

 

[Spectre]

do we have any data on the amount of payload (fuel + weapons ) that the MIG 29 can take off with from Vikramaditya ?? I am curious about the primary roles that the IN uses / envisions using its aircraft carriers.
The weapon capacity at range may let me get a better idea of the roles our carriers might be effectively employable in.

The general roles in which aircraft carriers were / are used , that I am aware of are :
1. Eyes of the fleet (find the enemy and relay targeting data )
2. Fleet air defence ( defend the fleet against enemy aircraft ) (soviets used their carriers in this role to protect their ASW operations from US AC harrasment -- thus our carrier was primarily designed for this role )
3. attacking the enemy fleet (this can be a hit and run or can be multiple hits )
4. attacking land targets ( again hit and run or sustained campaign )
5. wave the flag ( self explanatory but carrier is vlunerable in this mission )
6. ASW ops

Now , because of the design of our AC and its Aircraft , it will have varying levels of competencies in different missions. The question is how do we use it / intend to use it ??

 

[Bleh]

do we have any data on the amount of payload (fuel + weapons ) that the MIG 29 can take off with from Vikramaditya ?? I am curious about the primary roles that the IN uses / envisions using its aircraft carriers.
The weapon capacity at range may let me get a better idea of the roles our carriers might be effectively employable in.

The general roles in which aircraft carriers were / are used , that I am aware of are :
1. Eyes of the fleet (find the enemy and relay targeting data )
2. Fleet air defence ( defend the fleet against enemy aircraft ) (soviets used their carriers in this role to protect their ASW operations from US AC harrasment -- thus our carrier was primarily designed for this role )
3. attacking the enemy fleet (this can be a hit and run or can be multiple hits )
4. attacking land targets ( again hit and run or sustained campaign )
5. wave the flag ( self explanatory but carrier is vlunerable in this mission )
6. ASW ops

Now , because of the design of our AC and its Aircraft , it will have varying levels of competencies in different missions. The question is how do we use it / intend to use it ??

Just A2A loadout, for CAP & air-superiority... Russian doctrine requires carrier-bourne naval fighter jets to just threaten NATO carrier strike jets enough for them to jettison their payload prematurely. Eastern blocs offensive arm is the battle-cruiser & its missiles, not aircraft-carrier & its jets.
Even Su-33 & J-15 can take off sky-jump with only 4-6 AAMs.

India hopes to move away from that to counter China more effectively & create the option of carrier jets to be used in A2S roles. That's why the TEDBF is required to have as much lift as possible.

 

[Deadtrap]

do we have any data on the amount of payload (fuel + weapons ) that the MIG 29 can take off with from Vikramaditya ?? I am curious about the primary roles that the IN uses / envisions using its aircraft carriers.
The weapon capacity at range may let me get a better idea of the roles our carriers might be effectively employable in.

The general roles in which aircraft carriers were / are used , that I am aware of are :
1. Eyes of the fleet (find the enemy and relay targeting data )
2. Fleet air defence ( defend the fleet against enemy aircraft ) (soviets used their carriers in this role to protect their ASW operations from US AC harrasment -- thus our carrier was primarily designed for this role )
3. attacking the enemy fleet (this can be a hit and run or can be multiple hits )
4. attacking land targets ( again hit and run or sustained campaign )
5. wave the flag ( self explanatory but carrier is vlunerable in this mission )
6. ASW ops

Now , because of the design of our AC and its Aircraft , it will have varying levels of competencies in different missions. The question is how do we use it / intend to use it ??

Its for you to judge.

 

[Bleh]

Its for you to judge.

View attachment 80919

Find a photo where is taking off from Vikramaditya (not Kutzenov) with that... I challenge you.

 

[Spectre]

Its for you to judge.

View attachment 80919

The mig can take off with 2 anti ship missiles and rockets + A2A missiles , agreed ; but what is its range with this kind of payload from the carrier. Also , given the availability problems ( i've heard that this has gotten better now ) how many aircraft can we muster at a time. Ie. how many anti ship missiles can we put in the air (towards a particular ship at a point in time ?? In order to overwhelm defences of a ship , a large number of missiles will need to be fired simultaneously , can we put those many aircraft in the air simultaneously ??

 

[Spectre]

Just A2A loadout, for CAP & air-superiority... Russian doctrine requires carrier-bourne naval fighter jets to just threaten NATO carrier strike jets enough for them to jettison their payload prematurely. Eastern blocs offensive arm is the battle-cruiser & its missiles, not aircraft-carrier & its jets.
Even Su-33 & J-15 can take off sky-jump with only 4-6 AAMs.

India hopes to move away from that to counter China more effectively & create the option of carrier jets to be used in A2S roles. That's why the TEDBF is required to have as much lift as possible.

Yeah man , i suspected so. Didnt know about the russian intended to force NATO jets to jettisson their heavy weapons , thats pretty clever , thanks for that.

 

[Bleh]

Yeah man , i suspected so. Didnt know about the russian intended to force NATO jets to jettisson their heavy weapons , thats pretty clever , thanks for that.

Yes. The amount of payload this Jet can fly with from sky-jump is a major factor. Just google carrier takeoff photos of Su-33 or Mig-29 & you'll see what I mean.

You may have heard in Aero India 2021 interview, that TEDBF won't be getting any serpentine intake because that cause 2-4% reduction in thrust... they are prioritising maximum possible thrust to help the large delta canards lift atleast two AShM.
Presently the Mig-29K had trouble taking off with even full fuel tanks due to Vikramaditya being shorter than Kutzenov or Liaoning.

 

[Deadtrap]

Find a photo where is taking off from Vikramaditya (not Kutzenov) with that... I challenge you.

Do you have source to prove otherwise, where it’s specifies MiG29K T/O weight through INS Vikramaditya?

 

[Bleh]

Do you have source to prove otherwise, where it’s specifies MiG29K T/O weight through INS Vikramaditya?

Yeah I've extensively researched... A MiG-29 launching over the ski-jump ramp on a Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier can take off at a speed of about 70kn (81 mph; 130 km/h), instead of the usual 140kn (160 mph; 260 km/h)... and Vikramaditya is shorter. STOBAR carriers need to maintain a minimum speed of 20–30 kn (37–56 km/h) to even let them fly with A2A load!
I guarantee that you can't find a single photographic evidence that Mig-29K (any Russian naval aircraft actually) can take off with any anti-ship missiles from skyjump. Go on, try.

Mig-29 T/W is close to SMT of AF version, but sky jumps terminal acceleration is severally limited compared to runways or powered EMALS. While the Russian doctrine of A2A-only complies with that, it is one of the reasons we are planning on Mig-29 replacement after less than 20 years of service.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

What is the maximum speed of Mig-29K can acheive?

 

[Bleh]

What is the maximum speed of Mig-29K can acheive?

Once in the air, they can reach Mach2. Its the takeoff the eye issue. Otherwise they are normal Mig-29 with slightly modified undercarriage.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Why is TEDBF maximum speed kept low as 1.6 Mach? I thought DSI can reach upto Mach 2.

Also, if inlet is the problem, why can't TEDBF go with old AMCA type inlet with splitter plates? The Programme director is saying we want to improve aerodynamic performance and make an ideal carrier based plane, and not targeting stealth. Thus I don't is the reason for DSI implementation.

 

[Chinmoy]

Why is TEDBF maximum speed kept low as 1.6 Mach? I thought DSI can reach upto Mach 2.

Also, if inlet is the problem, why can't TEDBF go with old AMCA type inlet with splitter plates? The Programme director is saying we want to improve aerodynamic performance and make an ideal carrier based plane, and not targeting stealth. Thus I don't is the reason for DSI implementation.

1.6 mach is low?

Foxbat was able to fly at 2.5 Mach. But for that it has to achieve its maximum altitude of 68000 feet. There too if it sustains the high Mach, it has to undergo massive overhauling of its engine and fuselage. So practically it has to cruise at lower speed.
Look at the maximum speed of F-35. It too was designed for Mach 1.6. Now keeping a low Mach number is more practical now a days. Anyway its rare that anyone would touch those numbers.

DSIs could be designed for any mach number.